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Anyone sufficiently motivated by this Charlie Foxtrot to get themselves involved in politics?
I'd venture a guess that it's more involved than phoning up and asking if Party X needs a few new candidates / prospective MPs 😉
Remind me who keeps pointing out the Euro is a basket case?
😀
The euro pain hasn't even begun yet, we won't get off scot free far from it but the further away we can get the better.
@molgrips language, rule of law, opportunity for all, open and international society, passport after 7 years ... ?
Amber Rudd's speech. Interesting comment from Sky. She made it clear we would be changing the law to allow us to deport anyone ie inc EU nationals who repeatedly breech even minor laws. This flies in the face of EU law and Rudd bery much implied it would be changed in the near future and is therefore a challenge to the EU. Any legal action by the EU would be so drawn out it would have no chance of completion before our 2019 formal exit.
Whatever the level of the currency the UK will reman a very attractive place for "foreigners" looking to come and work
Really? I have 4 out of 6 EU colleagues (post-docs and lecturers) in adjacent offices looking to move back to the EU post referendum for a variety of reasons. Main ones are that they feel Britain is racist/bigoted, hostile and an uncertain place to work as a non-national and that they find the philosophy (if not always the execution) of the EU much more appealing than us turning our backs on Europe. From many of their stand points Britain was only ever a marginal EU member anyway and always benefited much more than we deserved based on our input and are struggling to understand the mentality of Brexit. Plus we are based in Scotland where Remain won outright so I would imagine that they are shielded from the worst of the immediate outfall, god only knows what those in English institutions are thinking.
2 posts I have open at the moment that would previously have had more than 50% of applicants from the EU is now down at <20% (and they are the dross). Even the proportion of applications from India/China are down. This is a trend reported by colleagues in other institutions so it isn't just mine.
These are posts for post-doctoral level workers; highly educated, highly mobile, ~25-35 year olds and utterly vital to UK research. Almost without fail they would out-compete much of the homegrown "talent" and now they don't seem to want to come here (and that is before we erect the real barriers).
Maybe minimum wage jobs will still be attractive to immigrant workers, but that is more likely through desperation rather than desire.
I know you have your hypothetical rosy day when Eurogeddon comes calling and every EU national want to be a part of our new great international trading nation but based on what I can see now, before any Brexit reality, has actually happened, it looks more like rats from a sinking ship than rebirth.
I wish you could convince me otherwise but I still feel like an entire generation of British nationals have been sacrificed on the alter of CMDs arrogance to try and sate BoJos ego and the deranged desires of the hard rights fevered imaginations.
The one bright light I can see is that it may lead to the reform of Europe and the EU into the thing it should always have been. FWIW I've been a sceptical of the current form of the EU for years but I fail to see how what we have done is actually going to benefit us.
the UK will reman a very attractive place for "foreigners" looking to come and work
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-37227313
the UK will reman a very attractive place for "foreigners" looking to come and work
sounds very much like the government don't want ANYONE coming to the uk, regardless of skills. The only thing that matters is getting immigration down. That it may screw the economy and trash the UK is of no relevance.
the UK will reman a very attractive place for "foreigners" looking to come and work
[b]Brexit vote has led to noticeable rise in UK xenophobia, watchdog warns[/b]Christian Ahlund, the chair of the watchdog, said: "It is no coincidence that racist violence is on the rise in the UK at the same time as we see worrying examples of intolerance and hate speech in the newspapers, online and even among politicians.
"The Brexit referendum seems to have led to a further rise in 'anti-foreigner' sentiment, making it even more important that the British authorities take the steps outlined in our report as a matter of priority."
Police figures showed a spike in hate crime reports in the weeks after the referendum in June. The number later dipped, but remained higher than 2015.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-vote-has-led-to-noticeable-rise-in-uk-xenophobia-watchdog-warns-a7343646.html ](The Independent)[/url]
The comments are worth a read too 😯
Nasty "racist" UK, lovely cuddly EU ?
EU has just signed a deal with Afghanistan allowing it to deport all Afghans not granted asylum back to holding camps in Afghanistan (note this is necessary as many countries like Morocco and Tunisia have been refusing to accept their citizens back). Germany has already said all Afghans will be denied asylum. Afghans comprise the second largest group who claimed asylum last year at just under 200,000
I deel dirty having read what Rudd said
Dark days
NW - I have to sympathise with you not just re the hangover (hopefully gone now) but also the challenges you now face at work thanks to Rudd
Shackleton - MemberMain ones are that they feel Britain is racist/bigoted, hostile and an uncertain place to work as a non-national
Do we work in the same place?
EU has just signed a deal with Afghanistan allowing it to deport all Afghans not granted asylum back to holding camps in Afghanistan (note this is necessary as many countries like Morocco and Tunisia have been refusing to accept their citizens back). Germany has already said all Afghans will be denied asylum. Afghans comprise the second largest group who claimed asylum last year at just under 200,000
Can't see reference to "sending back to camps" or Germany refusing all Afghans.
Story to me reads as "[u]failed [/u]asylum seekers will be repatriated". Not particularly nice but likely necessary to protect the legitimacy of genuine asylum claims. Hardly "EU screws over all Afghan asylum seekers".
Shackleton - Member
Main ones are that they feel Britain is racist/bigoted, hostile and an uncertain place to work as a non-nationalDo we work in the same place?
I think a lot of us on here do 😕
Nasty "racist" UK, lovely cuddly EU ?
No, the issue is not racist UK nice EU, the issue is those who are racist are now in charge. I am a Dual national and can remember being called a f***ing paddy growing up, having lived my whole life in the UK.
I had hoped that type of attitude had left the UK, i as wrong, i have taken out an Irish Passport as i basically don't give a s**t about the country i live in and it gives me more options.
Nasty "racist" UK, lovely cuddly EU ?
No one said that. But feel free to attack it anyway.
I had hoped that type of attitude had left the UK, i as wrong, i have taken out an Irish Passport as i basically don't give a s**t about the country i live in and it gives me more options.
Which country do you live in?
Given that xenophobia and racism across Europe has been exposed by recent events, we should be trying to play who is least bad, but rather working together to stamp it out altogther. These are increasingly unpleasant times.
The Tories have a bendy bus - May trying to park it in the centre with the nutters manouvering the dirty end to the right.
TMH we have a problem in Europe largely of the EU's own making. They have pushed on with deeply unpopular policies with their ears closed to the growing disquiet. Recent election setbacks in Germany have lead Chancellor Merkel to admit she got it wrong on refugees (comparable in my mind to Sarkozy saying it had been a mistake to admit Greece to the euro).
As I have said so many times when you ignore a small problem it becomes a medium sized problem, when you ignore a medium sized problem it becomes one you cannot solve. Someone else solves it for you.
I agree we've ignored racism and bigotry in this country for far too long, the tabloids have been pumping out xenophobic nonsense for years, starting thth bendy bananas culminating in blatant Islamaphobia and Theresa Mays go home immigrants vans and vote leave using nazi style posters and fear of Turkish criminals to help win the vote.
Now we have a rise in hate crime, even murderers post Brexit, vote leave seem to want to take credit for their stunning victory but not the damage it has done to it society, shameful.
History has seen this before when minorities are scapegoated for the failings of government. It doesn't end well.
Shakelton - agreed the article says a specially build dedicated reception terminal it was me who called that a camp. Why would you build a whole new airport terminal if people where passing straight through ? IMO it will be a holding camp. Sweden has been paying Afghans willing to go back, its seems the broader EU wants to accelerate this and include those who refuse. The statement that Germany declared all Afghans would be declined asylum was made 6+ months ago.
Graham, indeed it was me who used the term warm and cuddly based upon all those here who are so critical of "racists and biggoted Britain" in favour of other EU countries. What I suspect is they haven't followed the news in their potential new homes. Remember it was the EU which terminated the joint naval operation in the Med leaving Italy in the lurch and a huge increase in fatalities.
History has seen this before when minorities are scapegoated for the failings of government. It doesn't end well.
Agreed it should have been dealt with 5-10 years ago by the EU controlling freedom of movement, imo the refugee crises was always beyond them as it's just too dysfunctional an organisation. Such issues always flare in times of economic hardship and it's about to get a whole lot worse throughout Europe. Dangerous times.
Shackleton - Member
Main ones are that they feel Britain is racist/bigoted, hostile and an uncertain place to work as a non-national and that they find the philosophy (if not always the execution) of the EU much more appealing than us turning our backs on Europe.
I don't get it ...
Your colleagues all work in Scotland and because the nation (UK) voted out so now your colleagues working in Scotland, have all of a sudden, think they are working in a hostile country? You lot are in Scotland so what hostile environment do you get at your work place and in Scotland?
Which bits of the hostility have they identified and where?
mrmo - Member
I had hoped that type of attitude had left the UK, i as wrong, i have taken out an Irish Passport as i basically don't give a s**t about the country i live in and it gives me more options.
Have you been treated badly recently?
If you see yourself as a "foreigner" shouldn't you just respect the voting outcome?
Agreed it should have been dealt with 5-10 years ago by the EU controlling freedom of movement,
No it should have started with educating the xenophobes and racists so that FoM was not allowed to be their scapegoat
Its truly shameful to see what is happening in this "debate"
But I agree about tackling small problems before they escalate - hence the need to stamp this immigration nonsense out now
i basically don't give a s**t about the country i live in
Which country do you live in?
Where do you give a s**t about?
No it should have started with educating the xenophobes and racists so that FoM was not allowed to be their scapegoat
Is Gillian Duffy one of these
?xenophobes and racists
Or are you going to ignore the question again?
From the clips I saw, [b]her attitudes and comments[/b] appeared to be, yes.
Whether [b]she is or not[/b], I have no idea, hence the lack of my reply earlier.
From the clips I saw, her attitudes and comments appeared to be, yes.Whether she is or not, I have no idea, hence the lack of my reply earlier.
Typical none answer, you are labelling lots of people as an amorphous blob with a serious accusations. She seems to fit your description, so why isn't she?
I'll tell you what watching the Tory conference coverage most certainly demonstrates.... UKIP is finished!
What's the point of them any more?
When Dave described them as 'fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists' he might as well have been describing the post referendum Tory party. Well.... if we lose the term 'closet'. They seem to be openly, even proudly racist.
Cheers!
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starting thth bendy bananas
thing is that was true and it had a big impact on Tenerife's banana industry where their bananas are small and curved naturally.
What were they suppossed to do, GM their bananas so they grew a bit longer ?
Who in the EU thought that was a good idea ?
teamhurtmore - Member
From the clips I saw, her attitudes and comments appeared to be, yes.
Whether she is or not, I have no idea, hence the lack of my reply earlier.
Agreed
thing is that was true and it had a big impact on Tenerife's banana industry where their bananas are small and curved naturally.
and the regs says
(5) Account should be taken of the fact that, because climatic factors make production conditions difficult in Madeira, the Azores, the Algarve, Crete, Lakonia and Cyprus, bananas there do not develop to the minimum length laid down. In those cases such bananas should still be allowed to be marketed, but only in Class II.
thing is that was true and it had a big impact on Tenerife's banana industry where their bananas are small and curved naturally.
http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/media/euromyths/bendybananas.html
thing is that was true and it had a big impact on Tenerife's banana industry where their bananas are small and curved naturally.
They grow platanos in Tenerife, not bananas. 😉
binners - Member
I'll tell you what watching the Tory conference coverage most certainly demonstrates.... UKIP is finished!
I think you will find that one or two of the large parties will indeed be finished within these two to three generations but certainly not UKIP.
What's the point of them any more?
The better question is what is the point of the oppositions that try to reverse the decision of the people?
When Dave described them as 'fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists' he might as well have been describing the post referendum Tory party. Well.... if we lose the term 'closet'. They seem to be openly, even proudly racist
I think you will find yourself in a dilemma in the next election because you will have very little to choose from except Green, LibDem or SNP. Forget about the large parties because they are ONE.
They have pushed on with deeply unpopular policies with their ears closed to the growing disquiet.
Actually agree with that.
Typical none answer, you are labelling lots of people as an amorphous blob with a serious accusations. She seems to fit your description, so why isn't she?
She may well be - but I dont know her. Do you? I do know what she said though, so safer to comment on that.
Re the wider generalisations - yes guilty as charged I admit. So why?
Simple....we have made immigration a major issue in one of the most important econ/political decisions that we are likely to make. The links made between immigration and various issues were all easily fasliable.
So without solid foundations, one is left to conclude that the use of immigration as a scapegoat is either based on a phobia/fear of foreigners or a hatred of them. You decide.
One thing is for sure immigrants are not guilty of the various charges laid against them in the appalling Brexit campaign
I think you will find yourself in a dilemma in the next election because you will have very little to choose from except Green, LibDem or SNP. Forget about the large parties because they are ONE.
It's difficult to comprehend the speed with which the 2main parties have been hijacked by their extremes. The UKIP agenda which only a few years ago would have been considered absolutely bonkers, is now official policy of a Tory party in power, as it powers on towards a weird, twisted vision of some mythical 1950's Grand Brittania utopia that never existed anyway
Can we stop the world please. I want to get off
binners - Member
It's difficult to comprehend the speed with which the 2main parties have been hijacked by their extremes.
They have something in common - they refused to serve EU.
The UKIP agenda which only a few years ago would have been considered absolutely bonkers, is now official policy of a Tory party in power, as it powers on towards a weird, twisted vision of some mythical 1950's Grand Brittania utopia that never existed anyway
Actually that is not the chase because people have been waiting for this moment for nearly half their lives. They just grabbed the opportunity presented they moment it is presented to them because the are so fed up to serve EU.
No grass is greener than the grass at home.Can we stop the world please. I want to get off
big n daft, i live in England,always have done, and i have always been aware of a underlying racism but i haven't personally experienced it for a while. Since the vote i have heard plenty of comments about immigrants etc. seen a few comments on the street etc. Which is depressing.
As for what do i care about, me, if this is the England that will exist going forward i am not sure i want to be here anymore being honest.
My atitude has alway been live and let live, but when you see the political landscape shift so far to the right, and become so xenophobic you begin to ask whether as a dual you actually belong.
As for what do i care about, me, if this is the England that will exist going forward i am not sure i want to be here anymore being honest.
+1, but I won't be heading to Fuengirola either.
It is a country split between priding itself on being multicultural and decidedly racist. Racism is becoming more popular. 😐
mrmo & captainsasquatch,
Are you sure you in the UK?
I mean I don't sound British, I have a different culture, I certainly do not look white or hip and I live in North East working class region but I have experienced non of yours. Obviously I do not go searching for them but who does?
Very noticeable with foreign delivery drivers . They speak very little , as if they dont want to be known that they are foreign .
Was not like that before the referendum .
Then chewkw you have your eyes closed
Our own glorious Tory Welsh Secretary Alun Cairns thought it was ok to refer to Italians as 'greasy wops' until forced to apologise when found out.
Can we stop the world please. I want to get off
That's a bit Extreme.....
I'll tell you what watching the Tory conference coverage most certainly demonstrates.... UKIP is finished!What's the point of them any more?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37558485 ]seen the light ?[/url]
I mean I don't sound British, I have a different culture, I certainly do not look white or hip and I live in North East working class region but I have experienced non of yours.
Yeah there's no racism here in the North East:
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http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/english-defence-league-clashes-refugee-10959512
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-31657167
GrahamS - Member
Yeah there's no racism here in the North East:
Oh ya I see I am not sure if those are local at all on both sides.
The locals really can't be arsed to protest about anything at all to be honest ...
They might look familiar but I cannot be certain they are local.
The EDL has a pretty strong North East chapter.
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https://twitter.com/northeastedl
https://www.facebook.com/NorthEastEDL/
Luckily Newcastle also has lots of decent people standing up to this nonsense:
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/newcastle-unites-thousands-turn-out-8740851
ECHR. The French suspended this when they declared their state of emergency after the Charlie Ebdo / Hyper Kacher attacks 18 months ago. Interesting, I didn't know that. I knew they had suspended Schengen using the emergency powers but not the ECHR.
Fallon made an interesting point (I would it say that's the whole story) - right to liberty, as the enemy where not uniformed military there is a complexity in detaining them and if detained without trial they can bring an action. Also any claim must be investigated even if there is no evidence other than a statement, during this time the accuser has the right to a uk lawyer which was paid for via legal aid. Many of these claims where brought years later. It's easy to see how this was abused for money and poltical gain.
TMH education is all well and good , call that an aspirational goal. However that was not going to address the here and now, that needed something more practical and immediate. Also I do believe an impassionate look at real detailed data would throw up some very inconvenient truths.
Also any claim must be investigated even if there is no evidence other than a statement, during this time the accuser has the right to a uk lawyer which was paid for via legal aid. Many of these claims where brought years later. It's easy to see how this was abused for money and poltical gain.
Problem with a fair legal system really. If you exclude poeple from complaining etc. then all that gets solved and especially if you put off the people with genuine claims - how do they get justice in this new world order?
The Right To Liberty and Security (Article 5 of the ECHR) specifically allows for lawful arrest and detention:
1.
Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be deprived of his liberty save in the following cases and in accordance with a procedure prescribed by law:
(a) the lawful detention of a person after conviction by a competent court;
(b) the lawful arrest or detention of a person for noncompliance with the lawful order of a court or in order to secure the fulfilment of any obligation prescribed by law;
(c) the lawful arrest or detention of a person effected for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority on reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence or when it is reasonably considered necessary to prevent his committing an offence or fleeing after having done so;
(d) the detention of a minor by lawful order for the purpose of educational supervision or his lawful detention for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority;
(e) the lawful detention of persons for the prevention of the spreading of infectious diseases, of persons of unsound mind, alcoholics or drug addicts or vagrants;
(f) the lawful arrest or detention of a person to prevent his effecting an unauthorised entry into the country or of a person against whom action is being taken with a view to deportation or extradition.2.
Everyone who is arrested shall be informed promptly, in a language which he understands, of the reasons for his arrest and of any charge against him.3.
Everyone arrested or detained in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 1 (c) of this Article shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorised by law to exercise judicial power and shall be entitled to trial within a reasonable time or to release pending trial. Release may be
conditioned by guarantees to appear for trial.4.
Everyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings by which the lawfulness of his detention shall be decided speedily by a court and his release ordered if the detention is not lawful.5.
Everyone who has been the victim of arrest or detention in contravention of the provisions of this Article shall have an enforceable right to compensation.
So when you/Fallon says that [i]"the enemy where not uniformed military there is a complexity in detaining them and if detained without trial they can bring an action"[/i]
What you/Fallon actually mean is [i]"we'd quite like to illegally detain people without trial but those pesky Human Rights get in the way".[/i]
GrahamS - Member
The EDL has a pretty strong North East chapter.
Those people don't look like locals from the North East, if they are then they are definitely keeping a low profile coz I have never seen them faces before. The banner is a welcome banner and Not a local branch.
Generally speaking, Geordies are welcoming people but if you relocate too many new people to the region too quickly too soon I fear a backfire might happen in future.
a few pagees back I think somebody suggested I should get an Australian passport as the UK needs people who want to make it work (or not complain/criticise/question)
I'm applying for Australian citizenship - why? Becasue I can. It makes a lot of sense for me and will enable me to work within Australia and NZ without issue and have the backup of a second passport for the countries that need 6 months expiration. Also aniecdotal evidence says entering countries on Aus passports at times is easier and smoother than UK at times depending on whats going on in the world.
As for the UK - would I consider moving back in the next 6 months? No too much uncertainty.
If we get the Brexit the Mail and Jamby wants? Probably be a long time - from the outside the policies there seem to have the potential to lay waste to a generation. Persuning the dream with no regard for the consequence.
While the UK takls about kicking out immigrants etc. Spain and Portugal could do the same - who wants a bunch of non tax paying pensioners draining your health service?
It's 2016, by the time this is complete it will be 2020. A country that is activly poersuning an isolationist approach to the world will suffer.
By 2020 one of the things that will become apparent is that 90% of the stuff that was blamed on the EU will turn out to be stuff the UK government could do something about.
Not enough Dr's? Which bit of the EU stopped the UK training docs or treating them fairly? Wasn't it the government that wanted to get Jnr Docs out of the 48hr working week? Who the hell wants to see a doctor that has worked 50-60hrs already?
Building schools and funding them? Of course that was the EU stopping that.
This is before we get to the xBn pounds that is now magically worth a lot less and seems to be getting spend 3-4 times already. It's going to fund everything!!!!
If you want me to sign up to all of that tough shit.
Those people don't look like locals from the North East
I'll not link to it (because I don't agree with targeting individuals) but a bit of basic Googling gives you names, photos and addresses of some of these people. They are local.
mikewsmith - Member
If you want me to sign up to all of that tough shit.
I think nobody is going to force you to sign up to anything if you wish not. In life you should not give too much concern about others, just be at peace with yourself first and do whatever makes you happy.
I can assure you will face same poo different places. Been there done that. Same poo different places, colour, smell and environment. Same old, same old ... Stay there for min 10 years and go native then re-evaluate your views again, then compare & recall what I have said here ..."same poo different places" If you only stay for one to three years you ain't see nothing.
Sure you get them everywhere (people with extreme views etc) but so long as they keep to themselves that is their way of life.GrahamS - Member
I'll not link to it (because I don't agree with targeting individuals) but a bit of basic Googling gives you names, photos and addresses of some of these people. They are local.
I think nobody is going to force you to sign up to anything if you wish not. In life you should not give too much concern about others, just be at peace with yourself first and do whatever makes you happy.
So very true, if only we could sign up to the UK before the cock up. I've never seen a country where telling it's inhabitants (and assorted knowledgable experts) to shut up and get with the plan end well.
Sure you get them everywhere (people with extreme views etc) but so long as they keep to themselves that is their way of life.
So is standing in the middle of the toon holid racist banners and flashing yout tatts of exploding mosques keeping to themselves? If that was the other way round with religion they would be sat in a cell having a terrorism chat.
If you have not seen racism in the NE you don't have your eyes open.
[url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/firms-must-list-foreign-workers-gw20ndp5x ]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/firms-must-list-foreign-workers-gw20ndp5x[/url]
Proud to be British. 🙁
And no, it's not April 1st.
Firms must list foreign workers
Well I guess it's getting hard and they would give them grief for just listing the foreign looking/sounding ones
Why the Extreme Dalmation Lickers want to limit the rights of mostly white Christians to settle in the country I don't know.
I would hav thunk they wood av wanted to flood this ****ry wiv wite peepel to outway thows breeding mooslims.
Also I do believe an impassionate look at real detailed data would throw up some very inconvenient truths.
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Chapeau sir, that is the greatest troll I have ever seen 😆
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/firms-must-list-foreign-workers-gw20ndp5x
Proud to be British.
And no, it's not April 1st.
Maybe have them wear a star of some sort?
The better question is what is the point of the oppositions that try to reverse the decision of the people?
Hate to burst your bubble but isnt that what democracy is all about?
Are there any UKIP policies left that haven't already been embraced by Theresa and chums as government policy, is this brave new post-Brexit world? Seems to me like Nige has now got a full house. No wonder he looks so smug. UKIP has just one MP, but it's effectively written the Tory manifesto
Brilliant! Set the controls for 1952, and hold on tight!
Hate to burst your bubble but isnt that what democracy is all about?
On the face of it.
But as I've said before, if the people want to be listened to, they have the obligation to know what the **** it is they want to be listened to about. You can't just skim the Sun and vote based on that.
Interesting article about what democracy is all about by George Monbiot in the Guardian. Don't dismiss it because it is written by the man (I can't abide him as a rule) as he does raise a few valid points.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/04/democracy-people-power-governments-policy
TMH education is all well and good , call that an aspirational goal.
I prefer to call it a basic requirement - this thread and the Brexit debate proves that
However that was not going to address the here and now,
The here and now is that immigration is not the problem that BSers make it out to be. FoM is a good thing as are the other freedoms. The real here and now is that the BSers have jeopardised those core freedoms
Also I do believe an impassionate look at real detailed data would throw up some very inconvenient truths.
Which is why you avoid the data on this issue - the best you guys came up with was to mis-use the BoE study and/or rely on anecdotes. It was shameful.
Of course, I am always willing to change my mind if you can provide the relevant data. Feel free....
But as I've said before, if the people want to be listened to, they have the obligation to know what the **** it is they want to be listened to about. You can't just skim the Sun and vote based on that.
We might as well close STW forums down right now then, let alone have elections 😉
[quote=captainsasquatch ] http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/firms-must-list-foreign-workers-gw20ndp5x
Proud to be British.
And no, it's not April 1st.
🙁
Makes me absolutely ashamed. Sad times.
Firms must list foreign workers
What's next, make them wear a gold star?
The referendum has done a lot of damage to this country, make Britain Great again? What a sick joke.
Interesting article about what democracy is all about by George Monbiot in the Guardian
Some excellent stats in that article.. and some potentially dodgy ones too but still a good read.
The reporting of foreign employees isn't potentially quite as daft as it sounds.
There are several things going on the economy now that are undesirable:
- large employers often find it easier to hire skills abroad than invest in the training and development of existing employees.
- existing employees / low skilled workers increasingly don't have access to "ramps" to improve their skills and progress - trapping many people in low paying jobs no matter how hard they work and irrespective of any ambition they have (particularly for parents who may find it more difficult to move areas in order to progress)
- Universities are too removed from the business of developing skills the economy needs.
If we look abroad at economies like Singapore, other governments often focus on a number of strategically important industries that have the potential to create the volumes of well paid jobs the economy needs in order to fund things like good healthcare, education etc.
Those governments also align education / training to these to ensure employers can either access the skills they need or get the support to develop programmes to develop the skills in house - the German apprentice system is a good example of this. They also manage the number of migrant workers so that as the economy grows home local people have the opportunity AND skills to do the job offered by employers.
If you walk into many large companies in Britain you'll find many thousands of overseas workers doing jobs that could be done by locals if only the employers had the incentive and support to invest in more training.
Measuring the size of the gap between employers' "needs" and provision of local skilled labour doesn't seem to be a retrograde step if this informs better long term skills / training planning. It also means there will be more opportunity for people at the bottom and potentially an end to the current system whereby people on low wages are stuck there for life as the employer can always bring in someone from abroad at the same / lower wages.
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Singapore is indeed a good case study of the perils of what is being proposed - caution indeed
The reporting of foreign employees isn't potentially quite as daft as it sounds.
So how does this help? what sanction would be in place? What is holding back kids at school now from learning skills? I have met more than a few where parents are the issue.
If you walk into many large companies in Britain you'll find many thousands of overseas workers doing jobs that could be done by locals if only the employers had the incentive and support to invest in more training.
Or I look across the team that works for me and I see multicultural experience and knowledge
The reporting of foreign employees isn't potentially quite as daft as it sounds.
Yes it is. Like pretty much everything else that's been defecated out of the bile-filled mouths at the tory conference this week, it's a blatantly racist policy, designed to pressure employers into giving preference to people based on their nationality, and to further stoke the fires of racism among the general public which are already way out of control, in a cynical pursuit of votes. You can dress it up as much as you want, just like the 'legitimate concerns about immigration' bollox but we need to start calling it what it is because this road leads to a dark, depressing, and dangerous place.
Singapore, really that's your model? 😯
If you walk into many large companies in Britain you'll [s]find many thousands of overseas workers[/s] you'll see people working, paying taxes and contributing to our economy and society
A lot of my customers are foreign . If they aren't here , they aren't spending money in my shop.
This feels like the thin edge of a paricularly nasty wedge.