OK MSP, well when I take a group of scouts whitewater rafting this weekend on the Legacy course at Lee Valley, I'll be sure to let them know that they aren't really enjoying it and that actually they have been conned.
OK MSP, well when I take a group of scouts whitewater rafting this weekend on the Legacy course at Lee Valley, I’ll be sure to let them know that they aren’t really enjoying it and that actually they have been conned.
Maybe also tell them how much they will subsidizing west ham united for the next 25 years, or how much it will cost them to live in the supposed affordable housing that tax payers built. A couple of shiny trinkets does not alter the reality of what happened, even if it fools a few people.
There wasn’t much enthusiasm for the Olympics up here in the Pennines.
Bullshit of the highest order. Pubs here in the Pennines were packed to watch key events.
There was lots of cynicism on the run up to the games, but once they were going we embraced them wholeheartedly.
That opening ceremony linked to above was the moment that much of the UK got behind the olympics… we could see ourselves, and the real heritage of the UK, in what we expected to just be a white elephant. It was a great and surprising moment.
"A couple of shiny trinkets does not alter the reality of what happened, even if it fools a few people."
Better we hadn't bothered with hosting the olympics at all then? What would YOU have done? How would YOU have improved the lives of everyone in the country for a few weeks? Because I don't know many people that didn't feel a little bit more optimistic for the country that summer - its such a crying shame that its all been for nothing.
"There wasn’t much enthusiasm for the Olympics up here in the Pennines"
Absolute rubbish - I was kayaking on Dartmoor, equally far away from the epicentre and the atmosphere was electric in the pubs and town centres where screens had been erected.
FFS, get some perspective. I was just giving my opinion that with the required desire we could produce a lot more food (limited in choice but enough to feed people). I have not performed a feasibility study and I won’t be making anything policy and I am aware that there are complexities to it.
best to understand the state of the UK in years past, its reliance on imports, its history of rural and urban malnutrition. rickets, scurvy etc. are very real and very much a part of the current situation. Now restrict food, you could move to rationing, which only results in a huge black market and wealth getting food the poor can't.
If it can ‘clearly easily work’ you can provide us with some kind of fact based evidence; sometimes referred to as ‘proof’.
Bear in mind that the UK is already 60% self sufficient without even focusing on it as a goal. You don't think that could easily be increased via reduction of waste, more limited choices, incentives for people to grow and produce specific stuff? Of course it could if it came to it.
I am not saying it is viable and not saying it would make sense, I am just saying that it could be achieved
How would YOU have improved the lives of everyone in the country for a few weeks? Because I don’t know many people that didn’t feel a little bit more optimistic for the country that summer – its such a crying shame that its all been for nothing.
I would have spent 10bn on social housing (real social housing, not social cleansing and gentrification in a single area). Improve lives for life, not just a false glimmer of hope for 4 weeks, now long forgotten.
Even 10 billion spent on nationwide sporting facilities would have been fantastic, unfortunately while 10bn was spunked on the few, the many saw sporting facilities reduced and closed. Public facilities sold to private providers to provide councils temporary respite against slashed budgets now too expensive for the poorest members of society.
Man you wouldn't want to be the next party in power...
y 60%
so it imports 40% of its food, ie almost half!
then you have the minor issue of who is growing it? picking it etc. you can increase production, it does involve banning livestock and a massive investment in chemicals but if that is what it takes i guess that is fine.
(re the Olympics) .....we could see ourselves, and the real heritage of the UK, in what we expected to just be a white elephant. It was a great and surprising moment.
For a period of about 2 weeks - from that point where the feeling of 'what the **** is going on here' at about 12 or 13 minutes in that video turned into my phone buzzing off the hook with text messages from overseas colleagues all saying how brilliant it was, we were immense.
How have we allowed ourselves to become a laughing stock.
'London and the south east benefitting at the cost of everyone else' ?
To most of us here it makes absolutely *no* difference, so cut tbe'be efit' rubbish please. There's a velodrome / cycle circuit which replaces the old Eastway circuit I used to live near in the 80s - which if Herne Hill hadn't survived would been the only track down here(AFAIA)- I've been to the white water centre on a jolly but it's not easily accessible for many. There's a bigger shopping centre/various bars across the site but not exactly somewhere i'd ever aim to go.
As someone that lives pretty near London and goes on a few times each week, I and many others aren't happy with the post-2012 'benefits', specifically affordable/social housing, and a stadium being chucked away at a football team. But this kinda stuff happens with many Olympics, and I can think of a few 'festival of'/'expo (insert year)' events from around Europe or the wider world where the sites have very often fallen into disrepair, disuse and abandonment. Over the last 33 years the commonwealth games has been held in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester, and Brum gets its turn in 2022. I can't vouch for the effect on those, but at least 2012 has regenerated an area, much of which needed it. And the unfortunate truth is that a nice shiny stadium, wherever it is, can't remain empty and be self funding. 'Course, not everyone's happy, some businesses had to move (I wonder whether they were compensated sufficiently), and some have moved out purely because of increased premises costs - not limited to Stratford, and that's a related but separate problem. As is the issue of developers all over London/SE trying to scale down social/affordable housing which many council struggle to deal with in terms of getting stuff built.
Experts have released a picture portraying what london will be like in april.
Apparently Brexit's going to rearrange London monuments...?
then you have the minor issue of who is growing it? picking it etc. you can increase production, it does involve banning livestock and a massive investment in chemicals but if that is what it takes i guess that is fine.
Why would you ban livestock? I reckon 80% of the sheep meat in the UK is produced on landscapes where you would be hard pushed to grow even the most hardy tiny little turnip, let alone anything most people would like to eat. Plenty of cattle, deer, pigs and poultry can thrive under similar conditions too, we have just chosen to farm them on an industrial scale as prices have fallen and artificial inputs have become cheaper too.
Turnips ate ok 👍
More crazy Brexit spouting - this time family.
Regarding the Olympic legacy - I went to the 6 day cycling last October & walking around the site on a Saturday afternoon it felt like a ghost town, there was nothing there, bar the velodrome. It was a cold inhospitable area. We went into Hackney before & after the difference was night & day. So from what I've seen of the Olympic legacy it looks like a massive waste of money.
It’s an idea that could clearly easily work. We wouldn’t grow pineapples, you don’t need pineapples to be able to live
It's a fantasy you've just made up and the truth is that you have zero idea whether it could actually work or not, let alone that it could "clearly easily" work. It's a gross oversimplification of a very complex issue, like a tick box on a referendum ballot form.
Also, I like pineapples. What else are we going to have to give up in this post-brexit utopia? You're framing this in terms of "being able to live," which is great and all, but I don't really just want to merely survive. We're not (yet) a third world country.
If the best argument you've got is "well, if we work really hard and invest a buttload of money in labour and technology then we probably won't starve to death" then you might want to have a rethink. I've no idea how much land it would require in order to feed the entire country but it's sure as shit going to be more than a couple of polytunnels.
And anyway, here's a million dollar question for you. If this is such a great idea and we'd be so much better off, why aren't we doing it already?
I am not saying it is viable and not saying it would make sense
I think we're all in agreement with you there though.
That Giles Fraser piece is properly funny; remainerisn is somehow causing our demographic time bomb !!
I'm honestly not sure if it's a parody or not.
Also, I like pineapples. What else are we going to have to give up in this post-brexit utopia? You’re framing this in terms of “being able to live,” which is great and all, but I don’t really just want to merely survive. If the best argument you’ve got is “well, if we work really hard and invest a buttload of money in labour and technology then we probably won’t starve to death” then you might want to have a rethink. I’ve no idea how much land it would require in order to feed the entire country but it’s sure as shit going to be more than a couple of polytunnels.
I think I know who is going to do alright out of Brexit - it's just hit me, Bear Grylls & Ray Mears, they'll be in their element. If they can get books published (presuming we can still get ink & paper) then everyone will be down the woods, foraging for moss & termites.
I can picture the scene now - Christmas Day 2019, the whole family gathered around the table, before I serve up roast termite, with a side off moss, & a bark gravy. With a chilled leaf & hollyberry dessert.
If it can ‘clearly easily work’ you can provide us with some kind of fact based evidence; sometimes referred to as ‘proof’.
In 2008 Defra produced a report on the very matter.
“Crude calculations suggest that UK agricultural land could provide more than enough food from arable production in terms of our daily calorific requirements, in theory making the UK self-sufficient”. (DEFRA report para 4.14).
So we could feed ourselves after a fashion, but we didn't have to then and we won't have to in the future. Prices might rise, they could well be shortages in the short term. But if we want to buy others will want to sell.
And I agree with Kerley, this is a cycling forum, people are just batting ideas around, we're not a goverment department implementing policy.
And I agree with Kerley, this is a cycling forum, people are just batting ideas around, we’re not a goverment department implementing policy.
Like we could worse than the current incumbents...
Mmm, daily calorific requirements, my favourite.
Wait, I've got it! All we need to do is convince Huel to open a production and distribution plant here. They'd make a ****ing killing.
That Giles Fraser piece is properly funny; remainerisn is somehow causing our demographic time bomb !!
It's like a bizarre religious indoctrination.
There's some kind of irony in that we're probably one of the least family-oriented of all the EU nations.
Calorific requirements is a great classification for food. I need about 2500 kCal a day (at rest) and would be able to fill that with things like bread, boiled turnip and water. That diet would, despite giving me those 2500 kCal, cause me to have a host of illnesses due to the lack of protein, vitamins and essential amino acids. I would also like want to kill whoever came near me as I lost my soul and started dreaming about Nutella.
The fact is, we live in a world where people have had pineapple and want it. You _cannot_ put that genie back in the bottle unless you remove it for a generation and pineapple becomes something that grandad talked about around the fire when he was drunk on turnip wine.
And anyway, here’s a million dollar question for you. If this is such a great idea and we’d be so much better off, why aren’t we doing it already?
Did I say it was a great idea? No
Did I say we would be better off? No
Did I say I think we should be doing it? No
The point was made that we couldn't be self sufficient and I countered that point saying we could IF we wasted a lot of time, effort and money on it. We wouldn't have pineapples and we may have a lot less choices in foods and it wouldn't be easy but we could live.
Of course we won't have to do it and never would (because it would be a silly idea) but that doesn't mean we couldn't.
Prices might rise, they could well be shortages in the short term.
Awesome. I'm amazed Leave didn't put that on the side of a bus, that would've really pulled in the votes.
But if we want to buy others will want to sell.
... at a price.
I've just looked up the WTO tariff for pineapples from Costa Rica (the world's biggest supplier). It's confusing (because WTO is bloody complicate) but assuming I'm reading it right it's 14% to Most Favoured Nation states and can be set as high as 45%.
Another way to get your calorific requirements...
Whilst i am no expert in farming, those that argue that we can ramp up food production in the UK, or cover the south west in poly-tunnels, there seems to be an obvious issue, in that who is going to provide the people power or physical labour?
Whilst some methods of farming are more reliant on machinery, many are still done using human power or labour, i live in a rural area, and as i cycled to work at 6am i would see mini-bus after mini-bus of East European lads and lasses starting work picking strawberries, asparagus and the like. These same farmers all voted Leave it seems speaking to them as they did not like the tariffs (and it is farmers who are the only people who have actually given me a solid answer as to why they dislike the EU) but are now grumbling that they are struggling to get people to work in the fields and that they have food rotting where it grows.
So prior to Brexit we are having issues getting labour, how are we going to ramp up food productions levels drastically?
The point was made that we couldn’t be self sufficient and I countered that point saying we could IF we wasted a lot of time, effort and money on it.
Ooh you little fibber.
The point you were responding to, which you quoted in the very post where you were asserting that "the UK could easily become self sufficient in food" said:
We are not as self sustainable as we were before we joined the EU.
It's right here, see.
You then made several posts attempting to justify your claims as being fact despite being directly asked whether it was a good idea or not, before finally climbing down two pages later and claiming that's what you'd meant all along.
So prior to Brexit we are having issues getting labour, how are we going to ramp up food productions levels drastically?
Freedom of Movement, we could just import workers from... er, oh.
It's not just Freedom of Movement, the UK has to be a place people actually want to come to.
My wife works for the NHS, they have lost EU staff, simply because the exchange rate is so poor they can no longer afford to send money home, and the simple fact that they do not look upon the UK as a place they want to work, even if they still can.
My mate i was cycling with last night, his wife works as a lecturer at the local uni. She takes foreign medical students, and they do a year long course with her improving their english in general but also starting to learn anatomy and the like in english before going on to the big medical schools to do their med. degrees. Not only are EU applications down, they have a real downturn in Asian medical students and the like coming, at lost is that the UK is just losing its shine, and it is being made more and more difficult for them to obtain student and working visas, she is facing redundancy now.
Too obviously provocative raybanwomble. Nought out of ten.
Please answer me as to why, ethically speaking, your children are automatically allowed a state sanctioned western lifestyle - reducing the carrying capacity of the planet and increasing our carbon footprint exponentially compared to a developing worlder. But kids from developing nations are not?
What automatic right, do underachieving members of society have to a state provided unsustainable lifestyle at the expense of poorer more capable people?
Just seen a kid fighting over a sausage roll in the park with another kid looked to be 7 and 4 savage Britain ....it's the future
I’ve just looked up the WTO tariff for pineapples from Costa Rica (the world’s biggest supplier). It’s confusing (because WTO is bloody complicate) but assuming I’m reading it right it’s 14% to Most Favoured Nation states and can be set as high as 45%.
The broad way the system works is not that complicated, you just seem to be very confused about how it works. The importing country sets a tariff schedule and registers that with the WTO, so it would be up to us to determine what level to set which may be the existing EU WTO scheduled tariff 0r a lower amount if we decide. If there are domestic producers then we would probably set the tariff at such a rate to ensure they are not massively undercut, but where there aren't, such as bananas and pineapples the only incentive to levy a tariff is to have something to bargain with in future trade negotiations.
The broad way the system works is not that complicated, you just seem to be very confused about how it works.
So you know off the top of your head the difference between TL rates, AV rates, Bound rates and a bunch of other figures? Perhaps you could take a look at the numbers with your clearly superior intellect and tell me whether you think I'm correct or not, rather than popping in to be patronising?
I don't need to be clever to know that you will not find the post brexit rates on the WTO website (of whatever type) because they haven't been set yet.
Shame, you could've pulled me up on the very obvious mistake I've just realised I've made in working it out. Ignore all that, it's totally wrong.
@ mefty. That would 0% on pineapples then. Don't tell cougar he's already stockpiled a shed full of them in anticipation of a 45% rise 😉
Whilst i am no expert in farming, those that argue that we can ramp up food production in the UK, or cover the south west in poly-tunnels, there seems to be an obvious issue, in that who is going to provide the people power or physical labour?
Silly question. It'll be all those people who used to work for Honda or Nissan or Airbus or the EMA or JLR.
Or Bangladeshis who will work for 50p an hour and live in a shack.
Guardian saying May has been given a three month notice by 'senior conservatives'.
Please answer me as to why, ethically speaking, your children are automatically allowed a state sanctioned western lifestyle – reducing the carrying capacity of the planet and increasing our carbon footprint exponentially compared to a developing worlder. But kids from developing nations are not?
But simply rolling our living standards back won't really help the people in developing countries. A large amount of the money they get comes from the west as we buy their stuff. If we can't buy their stuff then they have even less money.
The problem with the current model of development is that economic growth raises standards of living, but it also damages the environment. Our only way forward without taking us back 200 years is via technology, and if we as a technological nation regress, there'll be less scope for that technology to be invented. We need to move forward, not backwards.
And yes, the poor of the developing world are being exploited, but the more of our money they take the more their standards will improve so we won't be able to pay them enough. Then we'll end up having to automate their jobs. So we'd better have clean energy by then.
Guardian saying May has been given a three month notice by ‘senior conservatives’.
That's far too long for what we need...
Silly question. It’ll be all those people who used to work for Honda or Nissan or Airbus or the EMA or JLR.
Actually Patrick Minfird the lonely pro-brexit economist, said exactly that - we'd have to run down car making & other manufacturing , but that we'd replace those jobs with tech/design & a big increase in food processing in his WTO brexitopia.
Also I think every single supplier at work has now emailed now to say they have stockpiled as best they can, but that nothing can be guaranteed beyond Brexit Day, especially the custom made biological stuff we use in the lab. the cost of all this must be insane!
Saw on twitter one guy tried to order stock for his business from EU and was told no, with lead times too risky in case they could not fulfill order when no deal!
