It’s imperfect, and it sometimes results in things we don’t like, but it has to be respected for pretty obvious reasons.
it has been respected, weve had the biggest increase in civil servants since the war, Brexit wage bill alone at Whutehall is >£2bn, at a time when we depserately need more police, NHS staff, social workers every other aspect of government has been put on hold for 3 years, ata time when we desperately need a rethink of welfare, taxation, education healthcare.
the referendum result has seen the biggest political enterprise in my lifetime, teh last thing thats happened is that the vote has not been respected or ignored, far from it
that brexit unicorns dont exist is the problem here
meanwhile there are 10s of 1000s of job losses lining up, the collapse in ivestment since the ref is the canary in the coalmine, we're starting to feel brexits effects in the already vulnerable auto industry, but manufacturing investment has stalled accross al industries, carney specifically warned about this in his global outlook speech
But does anyone know someone who voted Leave and feels that we are on course for getting “what they voted for” next month?
I've come across loads of people who feel they're not getting what they voted for because we're not (yet) leaving with no deal. They see all talk of deals, backstops, customs unions etc as a betrayal. It's pointless trying to argue with them about how 'brexit' was never properly defined, because to them it really is a binary choice between in and out. Hence why I've formed a view that the only hope of avoiding meltdown is a watered down brexit which satisfies enough of these people to avoid opening the floodgates of misdirected anger. Whether we remainers (and yes, I am one) like it or not these people prioritise the sacrocancy of democracy above economic armageddon.
They see all talk of deals, backstops, customs unions etc as a betrayal.
Hence why I’ve formed a view that the only hope of avoiding meltdown is a watered down brexit…
So, they don't get what they say they voted for? I thought you were against that, no matter what the cost? You say we must appease people, by pushing for a future that, going by your own words, will be seen by them as a betrayal?
I’ve come across loads of people who feel they’re not getting what they voted for because we’re not (yet) leaving with no deal. They see all talk of deals, backstops, customs unions etc as a betrayal. It’s pointless trying to argue with them about how ‘brexit’ was never properly defined, because to them it really is a binary choice between in and out.
Then you are dealing with a minority, strangely enough there has been a lot of polling and info gathering that politicians and others are ignoring. Appitite for no deal is low, it's the default for a small number of people. Plenty have changed their minds in many ways. Some have become more entrenched. Your listening to the vocal minority who defy logic at every turn and expecting to make policy based on that. That is not respecting democracy.
like it or not these people prioritise the sacrocancy of democracy above economic armageddon.
Yet you still keep arguing against a further democratic option.
Lets have a vote for the options now available, and if the vote is still leave, then god help us, but that will be democracy, not the sham of 2 years ago.
Hence why I’ve formed a view that the only hope of avoiding meltdown is a watered down brexit which satisfies enough of these people
do u really think that they wonr be whipped into a frenzy of BRINO outrage by the likes of farage, mogg, johnson, the mail, sun etc
every time the EU makes a decision we have to follow, with no say in the matter
You say we must appease people
No I've never said we must appease people. You really should be more careful with that word with all the historical connotations it has. These are voters, not nazi imperialists.
do u really think that they wonr be whipped into a frenzy of BRINO outrage by the likes of farage, mogg, johnson, the mail, sun etc
Nope, but it'll be a lot less of a frenzy than if it's cancelled altogether and will avoid a constitutional and political crisis which we can't predict the outcome of.
Yet you still keep arguing against a further democratic option.
I'm not massively against a new vote although I don't think it'll settle the issue. Part of me will be quite relieved if it happens, but I do also think there are massive dangers with it that we can't predict at this point in time. A new vote could be possible but it would need very careful management at a level which the current political parties can't hope to achieve. My main worry with a new vote is the further emboldening of the far right (as I've said many times) which could lead to a tipping point where their support quickly grows from inconsequential to mainstream.
but that will be democracy, not the sham of 2 years ago.
I don't see why it will be any different. People will still be voting based on misinformation and lies. And if there is another vote and we vote to stay, then the whole thing will simply start again from the other direction. Stuck in an endless loop of in/out campaigning, all the while everything else is sidelined and the country dies a slow death from a thousand economic cuts and further polarisation of the people.
I’m not massively against a new vote although I don’t think it’ll settle the issue.
Course it won't, but it'll provide a way forward and break the deadlock.
I don’t see why it will be any different.
Because far more is known now.
And if there is another vote and we vote to stay, then the whole thing will simply start again from the other direction.
No because we're at the end of the process and it'll be the last vote.
A new vote could be possible but it would need very careful management at a level which the current political parties can’t hope to achieve.
Current parties won't be doing most of the campaigning. It'll be grass roots on both sides.
These are voters, not nazi imperialists.
Who do you think voted for the nazis? By and large a lot of ‘ordinary’ people.
I think molgrips has pretty much done the piece by piece dismantling that I haven't got time for so, yeah, that ^^^^^.
If there was another vote, with eyes open this time and more immediate debunking of lies (I think it would work like this as many people are more switched on to fact-check and the like now), and the result was still 'Leave' I would accept it.
And then I would start planning, seriously, for me and my family to emigrate. That would be the real acceptance for me - acceptance that the country really has lost its marbles - and why would any sane person want to stick around?
No because we’re at the end of the process and it’ll be the last vote.
You think? Processes can easily be changed. What's the chances of Nigel Farage winning a whole load of seats at the next election on a best of 3 manifesto and then holding the balance of power in a coalition govt with a tory party lead by Boris Johnson?
If there was another vote, with eyes open this time and more immediate debunking of lies
There no evidence that it'll be any different. There will be campaigns just like before, operating under the same rules and they will misrepresent, contradict and lie just like they did before.
Who do you think voted for the nazis? By and large a lot of ‘ordinary’ people.
Which is the very reason I would like to avoid that by nipping the far right threat in the bud.
No because we’re at the end of the process and it’ll be the last vote.
I think this is hugely over optimistic. Whatver voting does or does not occur before we do or don't leave… the hope that everything will then be settled for any reasonable amount of time is probably unwarranted, unfortunately.
I would like to avoid that by nipping the far right threat in the bud.
since when is appeasment nipping it in the bud?
appeasment
Yawn. I've been very clear in previous posts that under no circumstances should we give in to the demands of the far right. That however is very different to listening and acting on the views of voters who may end up supporting the far right if they continue to be ignored.
Part of this process will be attempting to persuade them that they are wrong, part of it will be to take some actions which address their concerns, and part of it will be rejecting some things which are simply too unpalatable. Is this not how democracy works?
If after this process voters then go and vote in far right candidates, then yes, absolutely those representatives should be completely discommunicated and fought at every step. Or perhaps we can just keep our heads in the sand and pretend it will all just go away?
and part of it will be rejecting some things which are simply too unpalatable.
like launching our economy off a cliff with brexit?
That however is very different to listening and acting on the views of voters who may end up supporting the far right if they continue to be ignored.
I think history very clearly teaches us that the one thing that tends to popularise the far right is economic trauma. And what is the single biggest likely cause of an economic trauma right now?
You're barking up the wrong tree, I just can't decide if it is deliberate or not.
Yawn. I’ve been very clear in previous posts that under no circumstances should we give in to the demands of the far right. That however is very different to listening and acting on the views of voters who may end up supporting the far right if they continue to be ignored.
So we wreck the country instead?
Maybot ....backpacker of Europe
Is off to get her golden unicorn again..
Is the woman so terminally ****ing thick that she can't grasp they will tell her to **** right off.....it's like Oliver twist
dazh... let's look at this logically...
Let's take the 52% of folk who voted Brexit.
A percentage of those are the far right nut jobs who, let's face it are not ever going to be happy. Then there is a percentage of folks who as you say get taken towards the far right because they don't get "their" Brexit (whatever that is).
Then there is a percentage of folk who voted leave who are just too apathetic to do anything much at all. Then there is a percentage, who although they voted leave, would never side with the far right nut jobs. Finally there is a whole chunk of folk who have changed their minds since the ref.
So you are worrying about an overall small percentage of the overall leave voters and if you then take into account those who didn't vote leave, you are allowing an extremely small percentage of the voters to define your policy moving forwards. That cannot be right... especially when it looks like such a bad idea.
That said, I do fully agree with you that something needs to be done to address the fact that a whole bunch of disaffected folk felt so desperate that they were prepared to vote leave and/or were open to be manipulated by the media etc. In fact, even if the whole thing is cancelled, the result of the referendum should be a wake up call to us all and especially to the folks down in that Westminster that the game is up and they are going to have to do something pretty major to tidy up this mess in the future.. Otherwise this is never going away, how ever much we wish it would.
I just don't see how totally ****ing the country up in order to keep a bunch of angry folk happy is going to achieve anything at all.
Bit of a Brenda that one.
I just don’t see how totally **** the country up in order to keep a bunch of angry folk happy is going to achieve anything at all
Depends how much money they have and how long they vote Tory, can't see it's a safe gamble by the time they realize how ****ed it's got it won't be this election but definitely the next
Can you really not see the problem in reversing the result of a democratic vote which was held in good faith in which millions of people expressed their preference?
"Knowing what we know now, are you absolutely sure you still want to go ahead with this?"
Yes or no, it's not difficult and hardly antidemocratic.
“Knowing what we know now, are you absolutely sure you still want to go ahead with this?”
Yes or no, it’s not difficult and hardly antidemocratic.
And if people still vote to leave "knowing what we know now"
Answers on a postcard to mickmcd in the outback ...oz
dannyh
Member
I think molgrips has pretty much done the piece by piece dismantling that I haven’t got time for so, yeah, that ^^^^^.
He has only confirmed what you wanted to read.
1. Another referendum would only prolong the deadlock for at least another 2 years.
2. The blind faith it will be different next time - when things are still the same - is the logic of a mad man.
3. Of course if the vote is a different result those who lost the vote last time will not want to argue the decision again.
4. Money wins campaigns. Big business dont want Brexit, so will put in more money to get their result next time.
.
1. Another referendum would only prolong the deadlock for at least another 2 years.
Or stop it dead Remain or Leave
2. The blind faith it will be different next time – when things are still the same – is the logic of a mad man.
Nothing is the same, the easiest deal in the world is dead, the leave will do no harm idea - dead, the options going forward are clear.
3. Of course if the vote is a different result those who lost the vote last time will not want to argue the decision again.
They are welcome to present a firm view of what Brexit looks like though climing 350m/wk and unicorns for all might not work
4. Money wins campaigns. Big business dont want Brexit, so will put in more money to get their result next time.
Well we might keep more of an eye on funding from the FSB this time
1. Another referendum would only prolong the deadlock for at least another 2 years.
That’s speculative at best. Probably bollocks.
2. The blind faith it will be different next time – when things are still the same – is the logic of a mad man.
I would be willing to bet it would be different. What is it about this that scares you so much, Brexie?
3. Of course if the vote is a different result those who lost the vote last time will not want to argue the decision again.
Set a time limit where the question cannot be asked again for ‘x’ years. What is it about this that scares you?
4. Money wins campaigns. Big business dont want Brexit, so will put in more money to get their result next time.
Ha ha. You are taking the piss given the proven illegality behind the funding for Leave in 2016. The other one has got bells on it.
Make it a binding vote. Part of the reason Leave got away with all their shenanigans was they weren't under the same scrutiny they would have been from the electoral commission if the vote had been binding.
Unicorns, Snowflakes, Gammons ... it seems that those blaming people of being ignorant and too easily influenced by the media in voting Leave - are the very people who are ignorantly using the insults so flippantly they hear in the media. Aint that just ironic!! or moronic?
Errrr, what is your point, caller?
Unicorns, Snowflakes, Gammons … it seems that those blaming people of being ignorant and too easily influenced by the media in voting Leave
Well since your last post I used the word Unicorn and that was it - did you have the reply pre-typed?
are the very people who are ignorantly using the insults so flippantly they hear in the media. Aint that just ironic!! or moronic?
Sorry which insults? We missing something here?
Del
Subscriber
Make it a binding vote.
For those that voted - it was intended as a binding vote.
It is only those who are upset at not voting the way of the majority that are clutching at straws and looking for another vote.
Its not that another vote scares me. Its just that it will not keep those sore losers from whinging for another few years, and calling for a third vote if they lose again ... then a fourth ... then a fifth .. until they finally get it right and vote the same as the majority.
mooman
Member
Unicorns, Snowflakes, Gammons … it seems that those blaming people of being ignorant and too easily influenced by the media in voting Leave – are the very people who are ignorantly using the insults so flippantly they hear in the media. Aint that just ironic!! or moronic?
So Brexit going well, then?
if they lose again … then a fourth … then a fifth .. until they finally get it right and vote the same as the majority.
Yeah, imagine people not wanting to see their country trashed, tying & trying again to stop that, the gits!
Brexit going well? I shall tell you in April
So the resounding thing from Brexiters is not how well it's going, or the endless opportunity (for rat cooking) or the wonderful way the DFDS Liam Fox has sorted everything else, it's all about why asking people is a really bad idea, not met any who can tell you it's going that well with a straight face.
I shall tell you in April
It's ok, you don't need to.
Why don't you ask these companies & see what they think ?
Sony
Nissan
Dyson
Panasonic
Lloyds
Unilever
Goldman Sachs
Barclays
Airbus
Flybmi
P&O
HSBC
JP Morgan
UBS
Ford
Hitachi
Toshiba
AXA
Honda
Moneygram
Philips
European Banking Authority
European Medicines Agency
Bank of America
Michael Gove warns NFU farmers in Birmingham of 40% lamb tariffs in no-deal Brexit
Link
I know many farmers around here who voted leave who will be worried.....
I haven't used any of your "insults" anywhere in this thread, Mooman, check. I prefer xenophobic, ignorant, selfishly self-destructive, fervently nationalist, senile, backward-looking, poorly educated... . Which ones are you ?
kimbers
Subscriber
if they lose again … then a fourth … then a fifth .. until they finally get it right and vote the same as the majority.Yeah, imagine people not wanting to see their country trashed, tying & trying again to stop that, the gits!
Agreed. Those people who have continuously cried at every opportunity and thrown their toys out of the pram, instead of accepting they voted differently to the majority in the country, and just looked forward.
This thread is all the proof anyone needs to see of the nasty and bitter sorts that Remain attract; the comments regarding the unfortunate workers at Honda and Nissan say it all.
This thread has had need of an angry Leave supporter for quite a few pages. Welcome Back!
So Mooman can't tell us what's good about brexit, can't say why it's going to be a good thing or what positives we have to look forward to.It does real like some pre prepared statements slotted in slightly out of context - did anybody else get their troll pack from Vlad?
You need to check out the remainers' comments on the Honda and Nissan thread too, Mooman. The only clearly stated sympathy I saw was from a remainer. You are indulging in that leaver trait of lying. In the early part of this thread my main contributions were to link facts that demonstrated leavers, notably Jamba, were posting a mixture of misleading information and blatant lies.
I haven't done much crying but have deprived the UK economy of several times your salery since the vote, and many other pragmatic reasonable people around the world have been doing exactly the same. Leavers seem incapable of realising that acting openly in self interest and failing to contribute to the common good will result in exclusion as the rest of the world does the same.
If you are no longer a friend and associate what are you ?
