Don't disagree tjagain, hence why it's a huge gamble. Problem is every turn for him has possible disastrous results. Backing brexit as he seems to be doing will alienate a larger number of his supporters, labour voters and possible voters IMO. Back the people who supported you before, not the ones who didn't.
Labour policy is Labour Brexit. And, before you say it TJ, YES IT IS. See any interview with Corbyn in last few months.
Majority of the following don't want Brexit…
- Labour Members
- Labour voters at last GE
- People eligible to vote now
- UK residents
So who is Corbyn best representing?
We're not misrepresenting him. He wants Brexit. He's a Brexiteer. Simple as that.
You can live in denial all you like Uncle Jezza. He's a lifelong Brexiteer who's just sitting back (even if this means defying his MP's, supporters and labour members) and letting the Tories get on with Brexit because its what he's always wanted. He's on the same side as Rees-Mogg on this issue. He wants Mays deal to fail because he wants a hard brexit, but is too spineless to say so as he doesn't want to be blamed for it. He will be blamed for it, obviously. On account of it being his fault.
The only opposition to Brexit is coming from the backbenches of both sides of the house. The Labour 'leadership' has either actively facilitated it (3 line whip to trigger article 50, then leaving the cutoms union and single market) or abstained and sat impotently by, refusing to oppose any aspect of it.
He's a Brexiteer. Open your eyes FFS!
I would rather not take your word or view on Corbyn as you seem to have some 'issues'
I’d like to see him role the dice and get behind remain as I think that’s the only real chance he has of becoming PM.
There's zero chance of him becoming the next PM if he campaigns for reversing the referendum result. There may be little chance if he doesn't. More importantly though, if he abandons the white working class brexit supporters, who do you think will benefit? Those Tommy Robinson idiots will be doing a lot more than harassing MPs if they manage to capture mass white working class support. Whichever way this plays out, the next few years are going to be pretty chaotic. The genie is already out of the bottle.
I would rather not take your word
Listen to what Corbyn says… you don't have or listen to Binners, or me, just listen to Corbyn… he is not hiding it! He wants a GE, and Labour to then carry out Brexit. He says it again and again.
So who is Corbyn best representing?
Corbyn is following the result of the vote (he would be crucified if he didn't). Whether he is pretending to follow the vote or not is another matter but he has to look like he is.
As for majority of people not wanting Brexit, that is just you making that up as I have never seen a result from any referendum after the 2016 one and that is all that counts.
Listen to what Corbyn says
Yep, that is what I am doing. I just hear it differently than you and think other things are in the game. Different perspectives on what someone is saying, neither of us can be 100% on it.
So… are you simultaneously saying that Corbyn isn't enabling Brexit, and also that he is doing so because he has to?
He wants a GE, and Labour to then carry out Brexit. He says it again and again.
It's hardly news that Corbyn is a brexit supporter. What he isn't though, and what he has said repeatedly is that he's not a no-deal supporter. He's on record more times than I can remember as saying he wants a permanent customs union, access to the single market, regulatory alignment on the environment and workers rights etc. That's about as far as you can get from the like of JRM and the rest of the nutters. He's an ultra soft brexiter. The only thing he wants to change is the rules for state aid of industry, and I reckon the EU would probably give some ground on that.
Dazh, again, that's the gamble. If he chases the white working class brexit supporters he alienates the people who gave him half a chance last time. Do you really think those that were inspired by Labours election campaign will once again be drawn out to vote for someone who offers brexit? Without them he gets wiped out on the scale predicted last time.
I have never seen a result from any referendum after the 2016 one and that is all that counts.
So you're in favour of a third referendum then? That's progress at least.
The only thing he wants to change is the rules for state aid of industry, and I reckon the EU would probably give some ground on that.
Actually… outside the EU treaties we lose our exemptions from WTO rules on privatisation, public procurement, and state subsidies. The American companies are biting at the bit waiting for that to happen.
So… are you simultaneously saying that Corbyn isn’t enabling Brexit, and also that he is doing so because he has to?
Nope.
So you’re in favour of a third referendum then? That’s progress at least.
No, as I think it would go the same one as the 2016 referendum and the position would then be even worse. And not sure what you mean by "that's progress at least", hopefully you don't count progress as agreeing with you...
Andrew Rawnsley was bang on about Corbyn in Sundays Obsever:
To stop Brexit, Labour supporters will have to revolt against their leader
Note the accurate conclusion:
About a third of Labour members reckon he’s mainly worried about losing the support of Leave voters. This is certainly true of some members of the shadow cabinet who say things such as “we’ll lose the north”. But I don’t think it is the most important reason for being against a referendum in the case of the leader himself. Nearly a quarter of his members put Mr Corbyn’s unwillingness to embrace a people’s vote down to the fact that he actually supports Brexit. They have been paying attention. The clearest thing he said in his recent interview with the Guardian’s Heather Stewart was when he attacked the EU’s rules on competition and subsidies: “I don’t want to be told by somebody else that we can’t use state aid in order to be able to develop industry in this country.”
This will have a familiar ring to some older readers: it is a variation on one of the ancient arguments from the 1970s against Europe. It was often heard from Mr Corbyn’s antecedents on the left who opposed what was then the EEC because they saw it as nothing better than a capitalist club constructed to do down the workers and thwart socialism. It is highly disputable whether EU membership would prevent a Corbyn government from pursuing a state-directed industrial strategy. What matters in understanding him and his motivation is that he clearly believes this to be true. It is an argument he often returns to whenever asked about Brexit.
Sometimes, the simplest explanations for human behaviour are the best ones. The Labour leader is not making any effort to prevent Brexit because he doesn’t want to prevent Brexit.
The conclusion for Labour supporters ought to be clear. If they want another referendum, they will have to learn from their leader and rebel against him
No, as I think it would go the same one as the 2016 referendum and the position would then be even worse. And not sure what you mean by “that’s progress at least”, hopefully you don’t count progress as agreeing with you…
Despite evidence against that?
The current deal has low support
No Deal has low support
Brexit Support is below 50%
Yes that is from opinion polls but at some point you have to start reading them and taking note, if you only accept the referendum and GE results (especially as people overwhelmingly did not vote based on Brexit) as the only things you can base anything on you will learn nothing and you are Theresa May!!
Nope.
So, what are you saying?
In words that don't make you look like you're trolling…
When I say he needs to back remain I know he officially did but he now needs to get full behind a second ref or whatever is necessary to get the remainers back on side. The electorate will need a proper choice if there’s an election, not a choice of what sort of brexit you want.
I still think there's too many remainers who are Tory through & through, & could never vote for Labour.
Another GE would be a very dangerous game & could end up with minimal change at Government level.
MPs are now voting on Dominic Grieve's amendment - result will be announced in around 15 minutes. The cross-party amendment demands the government outline its next steps within three days if Ms May's deal is defeated - rather than the 21 days plus seven sitting days currently permitted.
I still think there’s too many remainers who are Tory through & through
Do you not think this might be even more true of people who support Brexit?
Labour policy is Labour Brexit.
simply wrong. try actually reading labour party output not anti corbyn twaddle
Rawnsly is one of those constantly pushing anti corbyn twaddle
Lets say it again
He campaigned for remain
He voted remain
This is certainly true of some members of the shadow cabinet who say things such as “we’ll lose the north”.
Sometimes, the simplest explanations for human behaviour are the best ones. The Labour leader is not making any effort to prevent Brexit because he doesn’t want to prevent Brexit.
I don't think it's either, to win a GE, now that scotland is lost to them, labour have to win pro brexit marginals and not so marginals in the south like Corby, Wellingborough, Rochford & Southend East, Romford and Basildon & Billericay etc
The issue many have with Corbyn and why they like Rawnsley constantly make up things to attack him with is that if corbyn is right on labour future direction then they have wasted their political lives chasing a Blairite agenda and they cannot admit they are wrong - So Corbyn must go and any lies will do to get him gone.
The Guardian and Observer have constantly attacked corbyn right from the word go and give his enemies in the party free access to do so
Rawnsly is one of those constantly pushing anti corbyn twaddle
...or the truth?
Depending on how effective your blinkers are
He campaigned for remain
like a surly teenager being dragged to a family party when he'd rather be drinking cider in the park with his mates
He voted remain
Did he? Know that, do you? He says he did? Then the following day he came out of the blocks with about a hundred times more enthusiasm than anyone had seen during the campaign to state that ARTICLE 50 MUST BE TRIGGERED IMMIDIATELY!!!!
Bit of a giveaway that one, wasn't it? Even Iain Duncan Smith thought that would be insane!
He then three line whipped his party to trigger article 50, then to leave the customs union and the single market
Yep... Andrew Rawnsley's clearly wrong. Corbyn really is anti-Brexit, despite all evidence to the contrary
Please open your eyes TJ. He's not the messiah, he's.....
Government defeat ! MPs vote by 308-297 to accept Dominic Grieve's amendment. If Theresa May's deal is voted down next week, she will now have just 3 days to return to Parliament with a Plan B - instead of 21. Parliament takes back control.
And another amendment goes through.
& another defeat for the government...
Or an affront to Democracy if you follow Leave.EU
Or an affront to Democracy if you follow Leave.EU
Its quite amusing seeing some of the complaints. Apparently Leadsom started asking for the legal advice to be provided. The same Leadsom do did her best to avoid providing the legal advice on brexit for the government.
poor ol' maybot, her programming was all how do i get the ERG onside only to be stabbed in the back by her remainers.
So the will of Parliament is that if the deal is rejected, they want May to return promptly with her next plan to stop her from running the clock down further.
Now the pro-Brexit crowd are seeking to split hairs over whether an amendment is a motion or not, who can therefore table one, and so on....
And they say a second referendum, or viewing an advisory referendum as advisory would be undemocratic?
From the Beeb "Labour has, meanwhile, said it will table a motion of no confidence in the government if Mrs May's deal is voted down next week".
So all the people who campaigned to leave the EU specifically to 'restore the sovereignty of Parliament' are now objecting to parliament asserting its sovereignty because it disagrees with them?
The rank hypocrisy really is quite staggering, isn't it?
tjagain
The issue many have with Corbyn and why they like Rawnsley constantly make up things to attack him with is that if corbyn is right on labour future direction then they have wasted their political lives chasing a Blairite agenda and they cannot admit they are wrong – So Corbyn must go and any lies will do to get him gone.
How do you know what issue "many" have with Corbyn? Have you spoken with the "many" and have they informed you of their issues?
so now we have 5 days of time wasting debate in which precisely nothing new will be said, after which a vote will be held which everyone knows what the result will be, before we can then find out what Plan B entails.
To coin a phrase - Just Get On With It
piha - its the only explanation I can see for the constant anti corbyn attacks based on lies
Lets say it again
He campaigned for remain
He voted remain
Like TMay then
To get back to the core debate
In all my time as a political geek I have never known a government lose so many votes. Even in the final days of Callaghan or Major they didn't lose votes on this scale. Normally one lost vote is enough to topple a government.
tjagain - so you made it up then?
It’s hardly news that Corbyn is a brexit supporter. What he isn’t though, and what he has said repeatedly is that he’s not a no-deal supporter.
Centrists are having a really hard time with understanding this.
So they only have a few days really to come up with plan B - and we already know there can't be one, because plan A was all there was. The EU and May both said so.
So that really does make things rather interesting doesn't it?
So all the people who campaigned to leave the EU specifically to ‘restore the sovereignty of Parliament’ are now objecting to parliament asserting its sovereignty because it disagrees with them?
The rank hypocrisy really is quite staggering, isn’t it?
You disagree with the 2016 result and it isn't stopping you looking for it all to be over-turned.
No, as I think it would go the same one as the 2016 referendum and the position would then be even worse.
Worse how? Surely if it goes the same way then it'll silence those pesky remoaners for good.
Care to explain why you don't want another vote?
