[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

it is a little known fact the Eu contributes allegedly 50% to our defense budget and that was due to include Trident,

Little known is somewhat of an understatement !

How can David Davies possibly say what the outcome of negotiations which haven't even started yet will be ?

He and the Government have given our objectives/best case scenario

1) A trade deal, not necssarily full access to the single market
2) A deal specific to the UK, it won't be the Norwegean deal, it won't be the Swiss Deal etc
3) No freedom of movement
4) No budget contribution

As for TTIP I think its now dead if it wasn't before, Germany and France don't want ti and Clinton and Trump want to renogtiate NAFTA never mind sign anything new. TTIP was/became an Obama project, he's done now. We do a lot of business with the US without a deal, I forsee that being the near term future.

Brexit isn't about having a plan - It's about the capacity to make plans of which remaining teathered to an inherently facist system prohibits - There is nothing intrinsic pertaining to Brexit ..

^^ this

Phew yeah, we really stuck it to those Fascists:

http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/how-bnp-created-road-brexit
http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/brexit-new-beginning-uk
https://www.britainfirst.org/tag/brexit/
http://www.englishdefenceleague.org.uk/the-remainers-project-fear-is-claiming-victims-across-england/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/24/european-far-right-hails-britains-brexit-vote-marine-le-pen

How can David Davies possibly say what the outcome of negotiations which haven't even started yet will be ?

Brexit isn't about having a plan

Hehe.. you wish it wasn't.. but we actually need one if we are to do it.

I think the problem here is not necessarily the referendum, but the fact that the government thinks the result means we have to implement it. The referendum should have simply indicated the will of the people - the government then should have promised to figure out what it could do to work towards that, IF it's practical. None of this 'Brexit means Brexit' sloganeering with talk of article 50 in 6 months' time.

[quote=noltae ]Brexit isn't about having a plan - It's about the capacity to make plans of which remaining teathered to an inherently facist system prohibits - There is nothing intrinsic pertaining to Brexit ..

Phew. So we could come up with a plan which involves staying in the EU then?

If anything is worse than having the damn referendum in the first place, it's how the government has handled it since.

Actually, the debate was pretty stupid too. So in ascending order of stupidity it's

The referendum pledge - stupid
The debate - scandalously stupid
The handling of the aftermath - colossally stupid

These politicians have no idea what they are doing. Have politicians ever really known what they are doing?

I must say, the whole thing is wonderfully entertaining.

[img] [/img]

[quote=molgrips ]Have politicians ever really known what they are doing?

Probably not - it's just that previously they've always had civil servants who did holding their hand. This time the civil service have no idea what to do either.

This time the civil service have no idea what to do either.

and more meanwhile....

Research fears
Dame Julia's warnings follow concerns about the stability of research funding at UK universities, with some research groups saying they lost out on grants in the weeks following the referendum.
The latest global university ranking table, published on Tuesday by QS, shows UK universities losing position compared with international competitors.
"Uncertainty over research funding, immigration rules and the ability to hire and retain the top young talent from around the world seems to be damaging the reputation of the UK's higher education sector," said QS head of research Ben Sowter.
Mr Sowter said his research was carried out before the referendum but he believes the result will have "undoubtedly added to this uncertainty".

(Awaits the spin machine)

Australian trade Minister says no deal until Brexit complete.

'Advance agenda'
In a joint statement, Mr Fox and Mr Ciobo announced the creation of a working group to discuss areas of mutual co-operation including future investment opportunities.
The working group's first meeting will be in Australia in January.

Brexit isn't about having a plan - It's about the capacity to make plans of which remaining teathered to an inherently facist system prohibits - There is nothing intrinsic pertaining to Brexit ..

Back of the queue with Australia now as well, oh this Brexit lark is going so well isnt it?

What can we possibly trade with Australia that will make up the shortfall of leaving Europe? I heard that the service industry makes up 80% of our GDP how is that going to help Australia. Distance, time zones notwithstanding what services are we going to sell them? What manufacturing are we going to trade with them?

It is a joke, a really bad joke.

As previously
Aus Imports Cars and Pharma as the mains stays, hope the UK doesn't stuff up it's motor and pharma insustries... The trade off will be cheaper Oz wine probably.
Also being an English speaking country the UK is/was seen as a good EU staging point for HQ's etc. as the languange and culture made it easy to set up a base in the EU.
Say hello Dublin 🙂

But, but, we were told everyone would be queuing up to sign deals with us!

Seems like we're the ones doing the queuing. Talk about humiliating.

These politicians have no idea what they are doing. Have politicians ever really known what they are doing?

Yep.. They get paid regardless of how harsh joe public gets hit with brexit.

I just think the biggest thing they learnt from it was that they can pretty much lie and use a good slogan and (so far) get away with it.

BTW Breakfast means Breakfast.

Still at least Liam Fox is guaranteed several trips to Australia a year, he probably sees it as a just reward, he fought desperately to avoid paying back some of the largest sums owed in the expenses scandal, after all.
Will his chum Werrity get to go too? What's the betting his Healthcare company (that fox is a major shareholder in) will get a good line on Australian healthcare provision.
While they are at it maybe they could discuss Hunt's flight of Jr Drs to Oz 😉

I'm still waiting for Fox to announce a major (arms) deal with Sri Lanka, they must be getting annoyed at waiting for the backhanders paid to Fox and Werrity taking so long to bear fruit (even tho we are already their biggest trading partner after India, despite their abysmal human rights record and american cable/Wikileaks revelations )

I dont really have a problem with the fact that they have no idea/plan about Brexit - that was/is obvious - but i do have a problem that the BSers pretended that having a plan might be possible and that Brexit would be relatively painless. It isnt and wont be. It will be tortuous and demanding not least because we lack the resources to deliver it.

We have years of unnecessary pain and uncertainty inflicted on us on the basis of lies, racism and xenophobia. To watch that clown Gove in the debate was another low point.

**** Europe **** australia we can trade with the Faroe Isands. (Hopefully)
When that **** said that there will be no going back on Brexit because some people didn't like it he seems to forget that "some" is very nearly half the vote.
****ing stupid ****ing ****.

Politicians and the none commercial public really don't get this 'trade' thing, it's not about wether we can trade with Australia, Europe or wherever, its what the duty tariffs will be. When we went into the single market, 100's of duty brokers lost their jobs, if we don't get a tariff free deal with Europe which I have to say is unlikely since they don't want us becoming the back door to their territory which would be incredibly profitable for us if we managed to pull it off. Then there will be simply more tariffs to apply at the point of entry, which means more jobs.
If you've ever imported stuff or worked in a company that does you will know the Tariff book is bigger than the Holy Bible and Koran stacked on top of each other and just as ambiguous. The Dutch in particular are the masters in 'interpretation' hence the massive trade hub around Rotterdam, we on the other hand have dull jobsworths that apply the first tariff they come to with the resulting increase in the costs of your goods.

Personally although it's going to be a huge amount of work, I'm happier that in the long run control of inbound pricing is back under our mandate and if we manage to swing a deal, it could be a bonanza for UK manufacturers.

Take bikes for example, there is a huge tariff on ready built bikes from China, yet if imported as components it's only about 4%, there's a deal between us and Taiwan yet an anti dumping clause from I'm not sure where, probably the EU.

If we negotiate a better deal with China, down would come the cost of entry of bikes into here, then the possibility of re export to Europe via our tariff free agreement could flood their market with cheap chinese built complete bikes, so do you see where it could go and why it's going to be complex?

but i do have a problem that the BSers pretended that having a plan might be possible and that Brexit would be relatively painless

Well as I said, if they'd treated the referendum as the advisory statement it was meant to be, we might have been able to do something.

Only one man can save us now

[img] [/img]

The Doctor?

Well as I said, if they'd treated the referendum as the advisory statement it was meant to be, we might have been able to do something.

What?

Start exploring what would happen, put together a potential plan, debate its consequences, and then a commons vote on exit. Or maybe incorporating voter's concerns into party policies and manifestos.....

In other words, the constitutional equivalent of Relate, rather than simply popping out for fags and not coming back.

Or maybe incorporating voter's concerns into party policies and manifestos.....

How do you incorporate 'burn the foreigners' into sensible party policy?

coffee/keyboard

thanks dazh!! 🙂

Well, I see Brexit trade agreements are preceding as expected..

The US, China & Oz have all told us to naff off till we've invoked Article 50, then they can properly screw us to the floor!

Well done BSers!

Oh come on why so negative? Slowly we will turn this country into such a shit hole that all those nasty foreigners will bugger off.
Three cheers for nigel. ****.

Good point zippy!

At least we'll have taken back "CONTROLLLLLL!!!!" as well......????

More evidence that the EU has our best interests at heart :

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/06/transatlantic-trade-partnership-ttip-canada-eu?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=189252&subid=11255125&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2 ]The transatlantic trade deal TTIP may be dead, but something even worse is coming [/url]

More evidence that the EU has our best interests at heart :

Indeed, but it's not just the EU. As noted in the article, the UK govt is equally enthusiastic to sign away our lives to multinationals. What we need is a party that has a different idea about the way forward that focuses on the rights of ordinary people, and not the profits of the already-very-rich.

Thing is - suppose such a party looked like emerging - how do you think the establishment would respond? Maybe with a media onslaught designed to make sure that it could never get the necessary support of the proles. Sound familiar?

"What we need is a party that has a different idea about the way forward"

Aye laddie the Yorkshire Party, it's the place we can all winge about cost of everything.

Free Yorkshire! An it better be cheap.

DrJ - Member

Indeed, but it's not just the EU. As noted in the article, the UK govt is equally enthusiastic to sign away our lives to multinationals

Considerably more enthusiastic; if they had their way we'd have probably negotiated worse terms for TTIP while insisting it was "brave".

I see Liam Fox is doing a sterling job of advertising the UK to the world.

[img] [/img]

I can't tell if he's getting his excuses in early or trying to blame businesses as hes finally realised that outside of his Brexit fantasyland foreign investors see Europe as a bigger priority than the UK. 🙄

Phew, at least he's not got a silly man bun this time.^

You've got the admire the sheer brass neck of Fox, a man who has not only spent his entire career living off the state but was also caught defrauding it. Breathtaking.

Also couldn't help but raise a smile at the Grady, the union lady, demanding that her members aren't the ones having to 'pay' for Brexit. What percentage of her members do we reckon voted to leave? I'm guessing at +50%.

I would happily challenge the deceitful DR to a mirror test to see who is the fatter and take an hours worked test. What stupid comments, even if taken out of context.

I hope [s]theresa[/s] Teresa knows what she is doing by giving these fools enough rope. They can do a lot of day amaze before they hang themselves.

From personal experience I think Dr Fox might have a point, even if rather inelegantly put. To export goods you need to put the legwork in (agents, trade shows, learning your markets etc) and many SMEs (again anecdotal experience) don't do this if they can keep their heads above water doing the easier sales.

Export figures from a macro perspective probably also support his argument - at least outside of the services sector.

Ironic though that the great export success story that is the City and associated professional services will be eviscerated by this idiots campaign for Brexit.

I hope theresa Teresa knows what she is doing by giving these fools enough rope. They can do a lot of day amaze before they hang themselves

I'm still thinking that the plan is to let the trio of fools make such a mess of the whole thing that the wider public will realise that is going to be too costly to pursue
And then she goes and releases her grammar schools pan flying in the face of the evidence that it's worse for social mobility and attainment

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/09/britons-may-have-to-apply-to-visit-europe-under-eu-visa-scheme ]visas for euro travel[/url]

Apparently we're not going to get £350M/week for the NHS after all:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/brexit-camp-abandons-350-million-pound-nhs-pledge

Well they've got to pay all the lawyers and consultants first.

[i]The new department charged with handling Brexit has spent more than £250,000 on legal advice over the past two months.

Government lawyers have been paid £33,000 a week to look into the legal implications for Britain leaving the EU.

This does not cover the cost of any external legal advice and the government has revealed plans for recruiting from outside the civil service are being "considered".[/i]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/09/brexit-department-spends-more-than-250000-on-legal-advice-in-jus/

£10bn+ saving per anum pays for a lot of Brexit lawyers

Did we need visas to travel to Europe before '73 (Soviet block excluded) ?

We didn't need visas, but the world is a different place to 1973.

First time I went to France was on one of those passport things you got from the post office, and never actually showed it is to anyone. Before 9/11, it was never an issue going to the US either.

And £10bn, yer right...

We didn't need visas, but the world is a different place to 1973.

What £10 billion saving? The numbers get bigger with no justification
Yes we did need visas. I have a passport full of them. Usually just obtained at the border. After leaving the EU we would be treated like most other non eu entrants and require visas to enter which can no longer be obtained at the border but need to be done in advance and cost money.

That 10bn saving was all for the NHS wasn't it? Don't remember anything about spending it on lawyers. No buses painted with "Leave the EU so we can pay lawyers".

Anyway, speaking of that NHS promise
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/brexit-camp-abandons-350-million-pound-nhs-pledge?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I always wondered how Vote Leave could claim we give the EU £350 million a week and £10 billion a year.

Maths would suggest that at least one of those figures is very wrong (and evidence suggests that both of them are! 😉 )

Don't get bogged down by facts Graham, live the quit squad way where all things are true provided they agree with the general view that Britain isn't great but cutting off one free access to our biggest non-domestic market and losing a source of skilled staff will make it great.

Ask Jamba he sort you out with some post-fact maths to square the circle.

To quote May, Brexit means bullshit

I thought they had already abandoned that "promise" the day after the referendum, saying it was a "mistake" to use it.

Did we need visas to travel to Europe before '73 (Soviet block excluded) ?

No.

Remind me how big the ISIS threat was in 1973.

IRA back in '73.

I remember flying to Dublin with no more than a bank card as ID in the early 90s.

Orwell made some good points about creating an enemy to unite people. ISIS weren't a threat to this country until we made them one - there is a sensible conversation to be had about whether we needed to make an enemy of them ;and arguably we did) but they weren't initially. Immigrants are another good example of a created enemy.

DrJ - we did. You got them atther border - a stamp in your passport but it still was a visa - just one that was free and obtained at the border

oldnpastit - Member
Apparently we're not going to get £350M/week for the NHS after all:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/brexit-camp-abandons-350-million-pound-nhs-pledge

No news there. Every one of the five reasons used by the BSers was a lie. Their campaign made yS look honest which is a massive achievement in its own right. But they both share the same belief - that ends justify the means however dishonest the means may be.

Don't worry you'll not need a visa to enter the Free Yorkshire zone, just a copy of your bank statement (Yorkshire Bank) or your fully stuffed Mattress. We need to make sure you can afford to buy the beers.

But they both share the same belief - that ends justify the means however dishonest the means may be.

Well,let's see if folk remember the lesson when the next Tory election manifesto comes out.

Don't worry you'll not need a visa to enter the Free Yorkshire zone, just a copy of your bank statement (Yorkshire Bank) or your fully stuffed Mattress. We need to make sure you can afford to buy the beers

Yorkshire Bank which is owned by the aussies?

Did we need visas to travel to Europe before '73 (Soviet block excluded) ?

I have a very old passport full of stamps from French and Spanish passport control from crossing back-and-forth over the Pyrenees.

At what point are the idiots just going to own up and admit this was all a really bad idea (or more likely they will out of their inflated egos and arrogance press on irrespective and present it as some success - free trade with Aus ffs - and blame others for their failure as Fox is already doing)and apologise - if they want a volunteer scapegoat to go off to Brussels and wear sackcloth and ashes ill willingly put my hand up just to put and end to this farce.

Loved the pictures of the EU flags at last night of the proms.

I loved the Brexiters getting all shirty about it even more.

After article 50, that figure has been predicted to rise to around £25m a week, so likely to more than wipe out the costs of paying into the EU.

the urge to bluster is universal among reckless men who have risked everything. They boom that events have proved them right, as if booming can drown the thought that they have made a colossal error. As their mistakes can cause the worst damage, politicians, propagandists and the politically committed in general are the worst blusterers of all.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/why-would-eu-appease-deluded-brexiters?CMP=fb_gu

We must never under estimate the ability of our leaders to **** up any situation for the most amount of money possible.

It's OK - if we promise to take the asylum seekers from Sangatte, then we'll get visa free travel. They did the same for the Turks didn't they?

I bet the brexit department will need headed note paper. That paper will need a logo. That logo will need to be designed by beardy no socks. Obviously the design consultation will need to go to tender. No doubt a committee will have to go through all the tenders and have long drawn out business lunches deciding.
After all they've got £350000000 to spunk away in the most useless way possible.

The Liam Fox thing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37324491

Check my logic for me here, someone?

Fox said this:

""This country is not the free-trading nation it once was. We have become too lazy, and too fat on our successes in previous generations," he said."

Is that not the same thing as saying that being part of the EU made/makes trade easier than being outside? Being that we're the 5th (or whatever it is now) largest economy on the planet- a situation built by being inside Europe.

This seems to the obvious corollary to what he said, but it seems so obvious that I need to check I'm not missing a point.

Anyone?

When was it the free trading nation it once was or are we back to the Crimson Permanent Assurance thing again. Is he confusing free trade with simply pinching other peoples countries which is generally frowned upon in these more enlightened times.

"Yorkshire Bank which is owned by the aussies?"

Them colonials can ave what they like as long as the buy the beer.

Well,let's see if folk remember the lesson when the next Tory election manifesto comes out.

Why Tory - they should all be the same and held account for what they say.

You "may" find this week's leader in The Economist of interest Doc, since it is entitled "Art of the lie" with the subtitle

Politicians have always lied. Does it matter if they leave the truth behind entirely.

What Trump, the BSers and yS did was very much leaving truth behind entirely and did so/do so willfully. I will let you read The Economist article yourself. Suffice to say that at the very least I agree with their semi-conclusion that

It is tempting to thibk that, when policies sold on dodgy prospectuses ([i]eg Scotland's Future[/i]) start to fail, lied to supporters might see the error of their ways. The worst part of post-truth politics, though, is that this self-correction cannot be relied on

Indeed.

they should all be the same and held account for what they say.

Indeed so.

Why Tory

Because their porkies seem to be more significant, convincing the ordinary punter that policies which will not benefit them in the slightest are in fact in their best interest. Turkeys, Christmas, that stuff.

Oh I see.

well they did lie about austerity, true, but in the end that was a good thing. Markets fooled and they ran an expansionary fiscal policy instead. Basta**s.

£10bn+ saving per anum pays for a lot of Brexit lawyers

FFS stop repeating that BS - we all know the real figure & it'd be greatly appreciated I'd you'd stop treating everyone like fools.

Otherwise you just come across as a condescending f****r!

you cannot expect our resident expert with a degree in maths and decades of working in the upper echelons of the city to be able to accurately state the financial figures

I wonder what happen when promises in the Better Together programme start to disappear Thm .How many ships are being built on the Clyde? Did pensions turn out to be safe with Better Together and did a no vote guarantee EU membership as they claimed?

I wonder what happen when promises in the Better Together programme start to disappear

What on earth gives you the idea that any of them give the tiniest whiff of fart gas about that? You really haven't understood this, have you?