I’m pretty sure what’s happening in France now would look like child’s play in comparison.
Farage and that lot are all predicting the apocalypse if 'the People are betrayed'. In reality what will happen is a few people will tut loudly, shake their heads and write a letter to the daily telegraph in green ink, some will go as far as to ring in to a Five Live phone-in to say how jolly cross they are, a couple of hundred BNP Tommy Robinson types would have a march one Saturday afternoon in Rochdale, then the lot of them would go back to what they enjoy more than anything in the world....
Moaning about Europe.
Safely back in their comfort zones
Farage and that lot are all predicting the apocalypse if ‘the People are betrayed’
Can we not just tut and call that 'Project Fear'?
Following on from what Binners just said - how large was the pro-Brexit rally in London at the weekend? Spotted something in the i newspaper, but didn’t spot numbers of attendees, although they were allegedly vastly outnumbered by counter demonstrators. My guess is that it was nowhere near 700+ thousand, otherwise there’d have been more coverage(?)
In reality what will happen is a few people will tut loudly
Plus if we are talking about likelihood of riots I reckon they will be a tad more likely if Farage and co get their dream hard brexit and people realise that the unicorns promised do exist but are a tad psychotic and out to ruin their day.
If the will of the people is still the will of the people it will be heard.
If as claimed there are almost as many remainers who would now vote leave; their will would be heard.
Those who didn't vote because they didn't know what was on offer, their voice can be heard.
Those who are fearful of the effect on democracy have the ability to vote to keep the result whatever their true will.
I don't see how presenting that as a choice for parliament to offer the electorate is such a difficult sell. The only ones who won't accept it are those that know they threw a lucky punch in the first match and now know they aren't really the choice of the electorate.
Do "world leaders" have nothing better to do that they can drop everything nothing and meet TM at a whim? Clearly these are not important people if they have all the time in the world.
My dentist 3-4 months for appointment
My Dr 2 weeks, unless a death is imminent
My optician 2 weeks
Tradesman pffft, checks 2020 calendar
etc etc
"The centrists are mostly responsible for the mess we are in."
As I'm one of these filthy centrists, can you tell me what I should do to fix this clstfk that I, personally, have caused?
Be explicit about it, Dissonance, as it I though (foolishly) by not slavishly supporting one party (like Labour, Greens, NSDAP, CPSU, etc.), I might be encouraging parties to evolve and improve as, and I'm sure you'll find this laughable, I thought that huge mono-block parties that can count on slavish support (from say, trade unions or the "blue rinse" brigade) simply become complacent and irrelevant to us ba5tds that actually give a point to elections (seeing as if there are no swing voters, nothing would change.)
Specifically, describe the people, the blok, that aren't centrist.
Illuminate us with a description of this cohort that dont bring chaos and selfishness to democracy.
Please.
I really want to know what the righteous look like.
I'm not necessarily just talking about riots, I'm talking about the rise of the far right as a political force, an increase in racism and division in communities, and the long term decline and chaos caused by this issue not being resolved. Despite the strength of the establishment institutions, we still have government by consent. If the referendum vote is reversed without a further democratic vote and addressing the underlying issues, that consent will be massively eroded, to the point that it could collapse. If that happens all bets are off.
molgrips
...We don’t have anyone who actually knows how to run a country and haven’t for years. Where’s our Merkel? Our Obama? Or how about a Trudeau or an Ardern?
She's busy running Scotland...
an increase in racism and division in communities, and the long term decline and chaos caused by this issue not being resolved
Dont be daft man the politicians have said this is the peoples fault not theirs
As I’m one of these filthy centrists, can you tell me what I should do to fix this clstfk that I, personally, have caused?
As I said centrists is a pretty meaningless term so give your own definition and lets see.
Overall though out of the people I meet who call themselves centrists generally they have a piss poor understanding of politics and a serious arrogance level. For example you seem to be confusing supporting a political party as being the opposite of centrist. Which to put it mildly is somewhat odd.
If the referendum vote is reversed without a further democratic vote and addressing the underlying issues, that consent will be massively eroded, to the point that it could collapse. If that happens all bets are off.
if it doesn't happen, i think the unrest will be worse once the true scale of the disaster becomes apparent.
For example you seem to be confusing supporting a political party as being the opposite of centrist. Which to put it mildly is somewhat odd.
Just for the sake of, well, reality, imagine I'm thick, so explain the above in terms I might understand. Avoid condescension.
Jeremy Corbyn says that if the PM comes back from Europe with "nothing more than warm words" she must put the deal to MPs for a vote.
"No more delays, no more tricks, let Parliament take control," he says.
"If not, then she must go...we cannot allow this shambles to endure."
Let Parliament have a say on "this shabby deal", he tells ministers.
This government has lost the ability to lead, to negotiate and to speak for this Parliament, he says.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-46506969
From the current emergency debate, and listening to Labour and SNP this morning, I'd say they are giving her the chance/ultimatum to return with something, in such a way that she must bring back a deal this week that they can vote on. If nothing produced then call the no confidence, doing it today would allow people to give her the benefit of the doubt. If there is nothing else on NI then she has lost the DUP.
If the referendum vote is reversed without a further democratic vote and addressing the underlying issues, that consent will be massively eroded, to the point that it could collapse. If that happens all bets are off.
It's OK we can just intercept the express/mail and another royal can get married/pregnant, then throw in blue passports and we are off.
She’s busy running Scotland…
There’s another woman in Scottish politics that I’d be far more likely to vote for than Nicola.
Where’s our Merkel? Our Obama? Or how about a Trudeau or an Ardern?
She’s busy running Scotland…
As a nationalist she can't be called 'ours' by those outside Scotland.
is this all shenanigans and phoney?
Cabinet Office Minister David Lidington says that in the last month Theresa May has spent 22 hours at the despatch box speaking to Parliament.
He says that no-one who looks at how much time she has spent in Parliament can be "in doubt" as to how much work Theresa May is putting in to allow Parliamentary scrutiny.
Anyone have the time for a quick word analysis to see how often she has simply repeated the same thing? Still we should admire 22hrs/month as a serious amount of work,. I'll be back in 2022 then....
voters remorse starting to come out. this has been put up on my local news site:
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/news-opinion/brexit-leave-voter-writes-emotional-2316172
it is interesting to see things start to turn - i hope this and others things get more coverage. there is still a large number of people to whom leave means leave and toe hell with the consequences. I think it will be too little too late however
Bearing in mind the High Court decision about the dodgy dealing and black money in the Leave campaign is due shortly, you'd think the smart thing to do would be to use the Article 34 (?) to stop the process, and then do a fresh referendum to a better informed public later in 2019.
But I suppose that wouldn't be in the interests of the tax dodging billionaires who funded the Leave campaign and are the main financial support of the Tory party. They'll be sweating on getting the UK out of the EU before the crackdown on tax evaders comes into force in 2019.
Meanwhile, it looks like the SNP will propose a no confidence motion if Corbyn doesn't by the end of the day.
It’s like Inception innit?
Is the dream just in Farage's head that is then in turn in Bojo's head?
Meanwhile, it looks like the SNP will propose a no confidence motion if Corbyn doesn’t by the end of the day.
Well Sturgeon on R4 this morning said they can't they, they can use a censure motion but that is it.
Waiting for May to return with nothing does sound like a better plan though.
I’m not necessarily just talking about riots, I’m talking about the rise of the far right as a political force, an increase in racism and division in communities, and the long term decline and chaos caused by this issue not being resolved. Despite the strength of the establishment institutions, we still have government by consent. If the referendum vote is reversed without a further democratic vote and addressing the underlying issues, that consent will be massively eroded, to the point that it could collapse. If that happens all bets are off.
We have a representative democracy, not a direct one. We should have never have held the referendum in the first place, the British public need to accept that we are too thick to make decisions through direct democracy and instead pass that responsibility to parliament, so that they may make the best decisions for us. We need to stop and remember that.
Even ****ing Noel Gallagher and Danny Dyer agree, supposed working class heroes.
A cursory glance at history or indeed current politics will show that it is quite easy to have multiple parties across the political spectrum working and that they can act as a balance. It tends to get extreme and unpleasant when people dont have a choice and decide to go and find one. Which brings us nicely onto:
You are talking about PR yes? Well historically this led to co-operative centrist coalition politics, with the extremist parties pushed to the periphery of the political system or forced to co-operate and moderate their views. That has of course changed now and the extremists have got into power in places like Italy and Austria. Although there are some checks on their power at the moment.
The DUP's Gregory Campbell says that the EU and Irish governments have sold the British government a "line" on the importance of the backstop.
He says the UK does not need a backstop because anyone who works in the area would know "a hundred other ways" to get around hard border arrangements.
"There is no point, no basis for any backstop, we have been led into a trap," he states.
It's OK DUP have fixed the border
It's not that the average person is too thick to understand, they just don't bother to learn about the EU and what it does or why it might or might not have problems. This is why political education is so important and should be compulsory in schools. That and media studies.
The WTO will insist on a proper border in Ireland.
That ****s your no deal even further you soppy ****s.
The WTO will insist on a proper border in Ireland.
Indeed.
Something the no deal nutters either don't understand or most likely simply don't care about.
ANY hard border within Ireland will breach the GFA. There is no workable solution* other than remaining in the customs Union and single market.
(*cancelling the whole thing and getting life back to normal is a workable solution obviously)
molgrips Subscriber
This is why political education is so important and should be compulsory in schools. That and media studies.
Slightly off-topic, but as a (sometimes Media Studies) teacher I would totally support any Secretary of State for Education who suggested this happen. We need future generations to know what they're (currently pretty blindly in many cases) walking into...
The WTO will insist on a proper border in Ireland.
Not quite so clearcut. Both Varadkar and Junker have told the Irish Parliament there will be no hard border in event of no deal as well.
This is why political education is so important and should be compulsory in schools. That and media studies.
And Adult political re-education in later life? Schools have enough on their plate teaching the basics without adding subjects of dubious utility.
Your link doesn't work....
Both Varadkar and Junker have told the Irish Parliament there will be no hard border in event of no deal as well.
So where is the border between the EU and the UK? In the Irish sea?
how large was the pro-Brexit rally in London at the weekend?
There's no official reports (yet?) as far as I know. The protesters themselves claimed about 15,000. I would be very shocked if that wasn't something of an optimistic figure.
Those who are fearful of the effect on democracy have the ability to vote to keep the result whatever their true will.
I'm glad you said this, because I think it's a very real problem that we'd be foolish to ignore. Aside from swathes of voters buying "the will of the people" mantra wholesale, there's plenty of people expressing exactly that sentiment in vox pops. The gammons and gutter press have been sowing for weeks now the notion that another vote is undemocratic.
It absolutely astounds me that we've manage to convince the public of "facts" which are self-evidently blatant nonsense: that a vote is somehow undemocratic rather than the very definition of democracy; that "no deal" is something anyone could ever want in any situation; and that a good chunk of the electorate isn't as thick as pig slurry.
Schools have enough on their plate teaching the basics without adding subjects of dubious utility.
Dubious utility?
1) We're bombarded with media every day, for hours. Being able to understand when we're being lied to or manipulated would be absolutely massive.
2) Most of us can agree that the current politicians involved in this shitshow are utterly useless. Why? Cos they can bullshit their way through elections and most people don't realise. This is because a) lots of people don't really understand politics (see also the number of people who don't vote, they don't understand it so they ignore it) and also people are easily manipulated by the media (see 1 above).
3) Most people believe in public services and the NHS, most people want to help out their fellow humans and everyone hates a rich fatcat. But they still end up voting for the party that looks after the rich fatcats, because they don't really understand what the parties stand for and what the implications of that are. And they allow themselves to be hoodwinked into think that the Tories actually want to help them - see 1 again.
You want a democracy, but you don't think teaching people about the issues on which they are meant to vote is important? I think you need some lessons yourself 🙂
I reckon May will be announcing shortly that she has applied for political asylum in Europe.
Schools have enough on their plate teaching the basics without adding subjects of dubious utility.
Given we have failed to teach people that you need to let people get off public transport before you can get on its going to be an uphill task.
May's policy is becoming obvious, deflect, duck, avoid and try and spin. Like the gambler trying to win back the cab fare home it's not going to work. The Brexiters are still chanting their hollow lies as they know the alternative to her deal is revoke not crash out.
I would love to see the clarification on the backstop to be an explicit definition that it only ends if a new deal is agreed that meets the requirements of the gfa.
interesting theory
also rumours 48 letters has been reach after "mod swing" in the party.
Interesting but the deal won't pass without the DUP. They flip when she fails on the backstop promises.
Given we have failed to teach people that you need to let people get off public transport before you can get on its going to be an uphill task.
I must've missed public transport lessons in school. If we had them, I honestly think it would help! People sometimes need obvious stuff pointing out before they go 'oh yeah' and feel silly doing it. I'm sure there's a psychological reason for this. Something like group behaviour effect.
The WTO will insist on a proper border in Ireland.
Indeed.
Something the no deal nutters either don’t understand or most likely simply don’t care about.
There was a terrifying statistic in the paper saying that over two thirds of leave voters literaly couldn't give a shit about a hard border in Ireland. Though I think the way they worded it was that it was 'a price worth paying'
I casually wondered to myself if they'd still think it was 'a price worth paying' if they were subjected to a merciless punishment beating by a load of men in balaclavas with baseball bats in a field outside Crossmaglen, then left in a ditch?
Doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
Count my mother in that statistic.
they were subjected to a merciless punishment beating by a load of men in balaclavas with baseball bats in a field outside Crossmaglen, then left in a ditch?
Aah, the good old days.
Foster was saying that the backstop has to go for dup to be appeased, obvs the RoI government or indeed the EU is going to agree to that. Wonder how big a bribe they'll want now or maybe they'll just get sold down the river.
Just for the sake of, well, reality, imagine I’m thick, so explain the above in terms I might understand. Avoid condescension.
So you say you are a centrist but then want it explaining? Why did you confuse it with being the opposite of party allegiance?
As it happens I think this is one of the main problems with the centrists, especially those who actively get engaged with politics. Instead of going for a "centrist" party they try and piggy back of the left and right parties hoping that the normal party voters wont abandon their party. Works for a while but then fails.
