TJ - are you suggesting that Sturgeon and the SNP are playing it coy on policy because they would come
under attack from the tories and the tory press as antidemocratic ignoring the will of the people.
??
Seriously?
<div class="bbp-reply-author">mattyfez
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No, labour have not, they are still ambiguous.
They have simply alluded that they might think about it.
Which means it's still on the table.
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Regardless of the protagonists views, in terms of Labour’s chances of winning elections, they picked the wrong Milliband and should have selected Burnham over Corbyn.
A warmonger and the guy thoroughly trounced by a supposed no-hoper.
have we realised we are all out yet? regardless
A warmonger and the guy thoroughly trounced by a supposed no-hoper.
Correct. A no hoper in the eyes of the electorate who ain't going to win the next election.
The right wing wins again thanks to the useful idiots of the left.
Gotta say, despite the cynicism, from my "drowning in despair at the blind Tory rush to implement leave no matter what" point of view, Labour's albeit non-commital tip of the hat in the direction of keeping Remain on the table is music to my ears.
have we realised we are all out yet?
Holy cow - when did that happen?!? 🙁
Which means it’s still on the table.
Maybe. But ..
But the Rohirrim won through. As did Gondor - makes you think...
OK, so I can see Gove as Gollum and JRM as Sauron, but who would May be?
Sarumay.
instead of Liberal Democrats in good faith
ROFL
This idea that we need skilled workers post brexit is complete bullshit as well, we have a skilled and educated workforce desperately in need of jobs. We need policies to encourage companies to take on skilled workers and train them for the specifics of a job, to make employment more secure and to make sure employees are treated as stakeholders in the business, not to import skills we already have to create a barriers to our young. If anything and if our government actually gave a toss about the UK citizens they need low skilled work to plug the gaps at the bottom.
Germany seems to do this successfully, and although it will make the bexiters red with rage, we should look at what they do and follow them.
betraying all those who voted in the 2016 EU referendum
This is the bit I really don't get. This is a problem, but betraying the 75% who didn't vote for this idiocy and who trust their government to work in their best interests is apparently absolutely fine?
johnners – what would you have them do instead? Specifics please.
A slippery bit of pivoting there tj. Everything I've posted recently is questioning your absurd claim that the Labour position is clear while you then go on to state it can go in any and all directions. There's no point discussing that any further with you while you cling to your very special meaning of the word "clear". Your implication that I need to magic up a policy for Labour before I'm allowed to comment that their current stance on Brexit is purposefully vague is pretty desperate stuff but I'm broadly in agreement with scotroutes ^^.
Signpost, not weathercock, as someone or other in the Labour movement used to say.
You lot are debating something that is highly unlikely as no Tory of any type will run the risk of a GE so labours position real or imagined is immaterial.
May will not be ousted unless she threatens a peoples vote/referendum as the bull shitters like Boris and JRM dont actually have the bollocks to take over.
May is sat waiting (desperately) for the EU to throw a lifeline (deal) that she can put to the vote in parliament- probably Norway which if it is supported by Labour and the Tory remainers will get passed but the shit it will cause.....
Its either Norway or WTO
The only thing that's clear about the Labour brexit policy is that any vote for Labour will be taken as support for <whatever Corbyn decides> and I'm don't trust him enough to give him that unqualified support. He could end up doing better than the Tories but that's like saying that while the Tories are going to burn down my house and shed, Labour are only going to burn down the house.
so no one actually has any specifics of what they think labour should do. Its easy to criticise, its very difficult to be constructive
I just want want them to set out their policies and publish them. I mean if they want a GE before Christmas then all of this should be ready and waiting. I don’t care if they are for or against anything but it would be nice to know
This wait and see then follow the crowd is a Boris (Dick) move....
Recent speeches celebrating the fight against thatcher trying to boost support for me is the same as flag waving and shouting sovereignty. Also saying private companies should gift stock to their employees has been used in the past to effectively handcuff employees to companies and get them to work extra hours for free as its now their company...
I just want want them to set out their policies and publish them.
Isn't that why they are having a conference?
According to BBC McDonnell has confirmed that remain is still an option for the possible new ref.
The only thing that’s clear about the Labour brexit policy is that any vote for Labour will be taken as support for <whatever Corbyn decides>
But his party is not run like that. Have you not been watching?
Isn’t that why they are having a conference?
The brexit debate isn't new, the party leaders should be clearly indicating their positions on it, to be agreed or disagreed by conference. I have been hoping that labour would challenge brexit ever since the vote happened (and even before), but they never have, they have disappeared from sight at every chance a challenge could have be mounted. It is a good thing to restore democracy at conference, but that also requires effective leadership to propose a direction that can be voted on. This is the main issue facing the UK, has been for the past 2 years and will be for a generation, it is naive in the extreme to believe that this party leadership, which has constantly fudged the question, will now change track, even if conference makes them they will not fully commit to the policy because they do not believe in it.
And the problem is their failure to challenge has also allowed the repeated lies to go unchallenged, the myths and racism have not been fought with reality and facts, and that has now become unforgivable, and this is why "leave" could still win a second referendum, because the truth has not been spoken in order to appease the ill informed and the racists.
+1 Binners.
As me and others have pointed out here, Labour have actually swung closer to the far right. History repeats itself etc etc, it was the same in the 20's and 30's.
The brexit debate isn’t new, the party leaders should be clearly indicating their positions on it, to be agreed or disagreed by conference.
I think their positions are clear. They don't want to jepordise their chances of getting elected by picking sides. Unsuprisingly the brexit debate has shown that the majority of politicians are more interested in their own careers than the UK as a whole.
the truth has not been spoken in order to appease the ill informed and the racists.
That's democracy for you. This thing that people seem to fetishize as the prefect solution to everything...
Binners – why do you say that when everything Corbyn has said opposes that.
Well I don't know why Binners said that but my interpretation is Corbyn is
in search of some mythical socialist utopia.
Above and beyond anything else... in the same way as the Tory Brexiteers are in search of some capitalist utopia.
Simplistically (at my level of understanding) .. Corbyn seems to want lots of nice things in theory as opposed to being pragmatic. I think he would prefer to live in a world/country where everyone is financially equal .. however low that level is. The picture in my head is not so different to Cuba perched next to the US.
This is just as scary to me in a real world as the Tory brexiters mini-US ...
If I've got all that wrong then .. well Corbyn has a problem communicating what it is he wants for the members and the UK.
If I’ve got all that wrong then .. well Corbyn has a problem communicating what it is he wants for the members and the UK.
You have got that wrong and that is not because Corbyn has a problem communicating...
First they called him a terrorist sympathiser, then a russian spy, then a racist anit-semite. None of those worked so now they hit him with the worst smear of all, being on the side of JRM.
Lets look at the facts. JC campaigned for remain, a lot more enthusiastically than a certain female tory cabinet minister did. He's said continually that he wants a soft brexit in the form of a customs union and complimentary trade deal. He appointed an arch-remainer in the post of shadow brexit secretary. He has 'allowed' (he doesn't have much choice, it being a democracy and all) his party to debate brexit and said he will support whatever the party votes for.
Yes, he got a bit carried away the day after brexit. Since then though he's been staunchly anti-hard-brexit. Are we going to judge his stance on one ill-judged comment after a night of no sleep, or what he's said and done in the subsequent 2 years?
Here's a simple fact that will dictate where JC ends up on brexit. He won the leadership with the votes of new members who were below 30, on a promise to democratise the party. Those new members are pretty much 100% remain/soft brexit. They will have their voice, and he'll follow it.
I think he would prefer to live in a world/country where everyone is financially equal .. however low that level is
But even if he might prefer that in theory, he accepts it's not possible in practice so is prepared to govern on the basis of what people want rather than what he wants. Some people seem to have a huge problem understanding this - maybe because they cannot comprehend the idea of putting their own ego aside? Not sure.
They will have their voice, and he’ll follow it.
Asking, because I don't know - are they able to vote on motions at conference when they are not there (either via proxy or some other mechanism)?
So who was it that called the three line whips in favour of brexit then? The tooth fairy?
So who was it that called the three line whips in favour of brexit then? The tooth fairy?
See my point a couple of pages ago about opposing brexit being political suicide. Honestly, everyone accuses Corbyn of being hopelessly naive and utopian, yet they would have him standing on a platform telling the country that the decision they made was wrong, that he knows better, and that they should be ignored. Much as I wish it would happen, this view that brexit can be reversed is a fantasy. The labour party know this, hence their current position on the subject.
OK but you can't simultaneously claim both that the Labour party policy is decided democratically by the members and also that we can't have the policy that the members overwhelmingly support due to on political factors.
Brexit can't be reversed, brexit does't need to be reversed. Brexit is dead and will not happen.
I think it could happen but not without huge ructions.
In fact, WHATEVER happens from now on there's going to be some huge political issues.
Good one Dave, I hope you feel like a pillock. TBH he probably does.
Yeah, I bet he’s really bothered....
OK but you can’t simultaneously claim both that the Labour party policy is decided democratically by the members and also that we can’t have the policy that the members overwhelmingly support due to on political factors.
No but what you can do is lead the members into a position whereby their concerns about brexit are addressed whilst at the same time not destroying the party's chances of winning an election. That seems to me exactly what is happening. They will come off the fence eventually, and I fully expect it to be on the soft-brexit side, perhaps even with a second vote if the mood in the country shifts decisively towards remain. IMO it's not a question of if, but when.
Maybe they will, maybe they won't, maybe they won't get a chance to do anything substantive but they have already chosen to support the tories several times. I see no good reason to trust them at this point.
No but what you can do is lead the members into a position whereby their concerns about brexit are addressed
He has had a few years to do this, to counter the lies with facts, but he hasn't. And he is just one of the long line of politicians who failed to address those concerns by educating, but instead he has continued to pander to prejudices and lies. He isn't the change he promised to be, and we hoped he would be.
And he is just one of the long line of politicians who failed to address those concerns by educating, but instead he has continued to pander to prejudices and lies.
So is it the politican's job to tell the electorate what to think?
It is an "honest" politicians job to not pander to lies and discrimination, and to actually fight against them. That is what he represents himself as, and before he became leader that is what he did, but his actions as leader have failed to live up to the billing.
but they have already chosen to support the tories several times
Support the tories or support the 'will of the people' (bloody hate that phrase BTW!)? I was also pretty annoyed they voted for brexit rather than opposing it and had the view that they should have strongly opposed it from the very beginning. But I also recognise that it would have resulted in much larger tory majority in last year's election, and as a result have been persuaded that outright opposition won't work if avoiding a hard-brexit is the end goal.
Jesus wept Corbyn far right FFS.
Any chance Corbyn gets he says how good immigration is for this country, how vital it is to the NHS. It was the ****ing Labour lot post Blair but BEFORE he came to power that blindly went along with the tories and UKIPs anti immigration rhetoric.
If Corbyn stands up tomorrow and says "Peoples Vote Now!" What do you think will happen?
To me it gives the Tories the upper hand and an escape route: "Its a shit deal because the EU, we had to do it though because Labour."
By waiting to see what shit deal the Tories come up with Labour can say "Thats a shit deal we can do better or lets have another vote as that deal is too damaging to business/ jobs/ NHS etc"
Well this got interesting - for a change.
Seems there are different perspectives on what politicans should be doing.
Support the tories or support the ‘will of the people’ (bloody hate that phrase BTW!)? I was also pretty annoyed they voted for brexit rather than opposing it and had the view that they should have strongly opposed it from the very beginning. But I also recognise that it would have resulted in much larger tory majority in last year’s election, and as a result have been persuaded that outright opposition won’t work if avoiding a hard-brexit is the end goal.
I don't for a second think it was a given that trying to hang on to some racist or ignorant working class votes, allowed Labour to hang in there. Had they been a bit further left of Blair, but with mass appeal and staunchly supported remain from the outset - they would have 1) Galvanised more young remainers to actually vote in that election 2) Poached the educated middle classes who are horrified by the economic effects of Brexit (I've met a few types of middle class people who could have been poached, those in the financial services who are educated and are essentially kind people who could put aside paying a bit more tax if it made themselves feel better and middle class mothers who are thinking about their children's future) and 3) they could have poached more of the ethnic vote. But ethnic minorities in the UK are often very hard working and financially driven - and whilst many would have voted for an outright remain party - they couldn't bring themselves to vote for Corbyns economics. So instead, Labour tried to get the Muslim vote with rampant anti-Semitism.
I'll be voting Lib Dem till the day I die, to stick one up to the upper and working classes.
Any chance Corbyn gets he says how good immigration is for this country, how vital it is to the NHS. It was the **** Labour lot post Blair but BEFORE he came to power that blindly went along with the tories and UKIPs anti immigration rhetoric.
He's a left wing nationalist, who says that to capture the inner London ethnic vote. He has decided, for some insane reason that is ****ing beyond me - to try and keep the racist working class vote and the inner London vote at the same time. Everything he says and does, is tactical and thought out - even the anti-Semitism in the party is designed to win votes. Stay low on Brexit, keep some racists/thick ****s, be anti-Semitic with a nudge nudge wink wink - keep a substantial part of the ethnic vote whilst still pandering to working class white people.
He is trying to be different things to different people, other people in history have used the exact same tactic and have succeeded.
So instead, Labour tried to get the Muslim vote with rampant anti-Semitism
Well that is just an outright lie!
So is it the politican’s job to tell the electorate what to think?
It is their job to explain their positions and try to persuade people to their viewpoint. Just as much as it is for the opinion writers in the media or think tanks.
As ctk says labour are in a dangerous position. No one is sure exactly what will happen if they come out strongly against. Some polls show some people voting for them but the simple fact is a lot of the labour seats voted out. If they bail the tories out they could get completely hammered in the next election since the tories wont be thanking them for saving them from the mess but would be looking for profit. Likewise the labour "moderates" would dive in and try to pull the party rightwards again.
Yes it would be nice to save the country from Brexit but if that comes at the cost of the party being wiped out?
See my point a couple of pages ago about opposing brexit being political suicide. Honestly, everyone accuses Corbyn of being hopelessly naive and utopian,
See it's multiple things .... does he have the conviction to commit political suicide for the sake of the electorate?
yet they would have him standing on a platform telling the country that the decision they made was wrong, that he knows better, and that they should be ignored.
I would have him on a platform saying they had been deceived... and that whilst he himself is a Euroskeptic that being in is far better than being out in anything other than fantasy conditions, that no type of Brexit remotely possible can possibly provide the promises for everyone. Brexit was and continues to be a scam... it's no different to promising lots of attractive things you can't or have no intention of delivering because once you sign they forget the promises that were only ever "examples"