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[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

 igm
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SNP.  Agreed Bob, when they look like the adults in the room (and they do - THM I’m looking at you) we should all worry.

Said as a Scots ex-pat / Yorkshire immigrant.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 12:56 am
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If you think that then look to yourself my friend 😉 you much have missed a lot of recent news

(FWIW my grown up comments have never been directed at politicians of any party. They are directed  at those who do the real work.

As an aside, I was playing golf with a German lawyer in France last night (by chance) who agreed with me on that point. But he was equally mystified at Merkel’s approach to immigration and raised an eyebrow at me when I said I was 100% in favour of FoM!!)


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 1:09 am
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If you think that then look to yourself my friend 😉 you much have missed a lot of recent news

We all know you have a permanent rager for all things SNP and Indy Ref, but Salmond hasn't been an MP for some time.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 1:30 am
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If you think that then look to yourself my friend  you much have missed a lot of recent news

(FWIW my grown up comments have never been directed at politicians of any party. They are directed  at those who do the real work.

As an aside, I was playing golf with a German lawyer in France last night (by chance) who agreed with me on that point.

Never in the field of human history has so much been said without a single specific point being made. If you're referring to Bob's comment, you are deluded if you think the negotiations are going well.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 1:36 am
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As an aside, I was playing golf with a German lawyer in France last night (by chance) who agreed with me on that point.

His opinion was of extraordinary value due to his scratch handicap.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 2:48 am
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On the contrary - his golf was not great. But he was a senior lawyer who had worked: for two silver circle law firms in Germany, Japan and U.K.; the German privatisation agency after unification and many major x-border M&A deals. Despite this wealth of international experience and expertise he kept coming back to one point - Merkel had screwed up massively on immigration. He was v lukewarm on FoM too. When I tried to move on to Merkel as the master of compromise, he merely returned to migration and migrants. She had failed massively. He was unsympathetic (!!) to my suppprt for the four freedoms especially of people!! This is a v well educated, travelled and experienced German professional ?!?

Leavers are not alone - here, Germany and as this weekend  shows in Sweden too. For those who don’t listen to the news/have access to google 😉

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45461686

In lovely, liberal utopic Sweden (?) immigration dominates the debate

(my comment was in reply to IGM FWIW)


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 7:51 am
 kilo
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So some rich bloke who has used FoM for his benefit is against poor economic migrants, quelle surprise


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 8:26 am
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My prejudice against golfers has been reinforced.

I bet he had a moustache as well.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 8:41 am
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But he was equally mystified at Merkel’s approach to immigration

Really? I would have thought it was as obvious as their policy on refugees and people fleeing persecution has been pretty constant for a while.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_collective_guilt

we can pull some old news articles of refugee ships full of Jews being turned back from the USA and sent back to concentration camps which caused enough guilt for the US government to push for immigration restrictions to be lifted on Palestine creating the state of Israel.

guilt is a powerful tool.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 8:46 am
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So random german lawyers can be hypocrites too. Who knew?


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 9:13 am
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I think you all missed the point of the story. THM gets his gossip from important people who are close to those making the decisions whereas the rest of us just have to wait for those making the decisions to tweet something.

As I recall the grown ups comment was about people behind the scenes doing the hard work that would secure a good deal

I think we can all stand back and agree quite how well that is going.

In other news still no plan


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 9:35 am
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I didn't miss that, I just ignored it.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 9:42 am
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Ignoring stuff that doesn’t fit a predetermined narrative - plus ca change 😀

Sorry zippy. Wrong. But let’s not get in the way of prejudice either. He did like a nice bit of chocolate though


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 9:57 am
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A story about one German lawyer you've met doesn't much like immigration...meaningless verbiage to the actual point of the thread...plus ca change.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 10:02 am
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Whereas an anecdote about someone's old nan who reads the Wail and thinks Europe is a bad idea is 100% relevant - when moaners out themselves as hypocrites it's brilliant


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 10:16 am
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Ignoring stuff that doesn’t fit a predetermined narrative –

Like the content of the article who's headline suited you on port investment which was actually about the predicted chaos and resulting economic impact brexit at Dover.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 10:20 am
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I know fancy welcoming investment in N England to balance geographic inequality - let's just ignore it inside and write out of date comments on Immingham instead (which is easily falsified)

One out, all out 😀

Amomg the bad news in the article

Northern routes are also growing in popularity as companies try to cut carbon emissions and ship direct to their markets. Each mile at sea uses less energy than one on the congested motorway network.

Terrible


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 10:24 am
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THM ,inside every golfer is a moustache and a pink v neck jumper.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 10:25 am
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Of course - at least that's as accurate as much of ^ 😀


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 10:29 am
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So we just need to ignore the massive problems forecast for our busiest shipping routes.

Ignore the logistical changes and accept that this was planned to happen for other reasons?

Shipping and imports will continue to be strong to an island nation. Investment in ports will be important as we are a net importer.

The UK will just pay the price in increases to prices.

It's not a brexit good news story.

But top line of the list of things to do....

Come up with a plan that is compatible with the eu requirements.

Nobody has done that yet. I would imagine somebody wrote a list down on a white board at. Chequers of what that was but borris was too busy screwing around to read it and it's become apparent that plenty of the rest don't like reading anyway.

Momentum behind a vote on the deal is growing, support for remain is growing, key trade union support will influence the Labour Party conference.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 10:50 am
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No we adjust, plan and invest in alternatives that produce potentially better outcomes for all. Or just moan. Your choice. Glad ABP is doing the fomer.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 11:06 am
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I know fancy welcoming investment in N England to balance geographic inequality – let’s just ignore it inside and write out of date comments on Immingham instead (which is easily falsified)

But do you understand why they're making that inverstment, do you understand the consequences of it?


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 11:07 am
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So you are now arguing that we roll over and accept the EU's position even though that's not the best outcome. It's great this, everyone outing themselves as each day...

I would prefer a united position to achieve a bespoke FTA. This is a unique position that requires a unique solution. That's where the momentum "should" be rather than fighting the old battles


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 11:14 am
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Yes pondo

Immingham handled 183,000 container units in 2017, up from 68,000 units in 2013 and taking it close to its capacity. ABP predicted a further 50 per cent increase in traffic by 2020. Nearby Hull is growing by more than 10 per cent annually and moved 109,000 units in 2017.

DFDS, a Danish group that is the second biggest shipping line serving the UK, is also expanding its own Immingham terminal, although it did not disclose investment figures.

And transport company Unifeeder is growing its network to the north with new services recently introduced from Dunkirk and Antwerp to Teesport and from Rotterdam to the Port of Tyne.

All for investment in N of England personally especially if it brings environmental benefits too. Should be momentum there too


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 11:21 am
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Not an environmental benefit as such THM

Since tbe famous kyoto cop-out shipping doesn't count toward nations CO2

So we can say we are reducing vehicle emissions & our official CO2 output. So as to get round the the backlog at Southern ports stuff will travel further at sea, so yes brexit even contributes to climate change !


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 11:40 am
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You're wasting your time as a high-powered-well-connected-whatever-it-is-you-do, with your ability to cherry-pick you could single-handedly resolve the shortage of seasonal farmhands. 🙂 So yeah, massive investment - great. It's because they know Kent will shortly become the world's biggest car park (this is bad), and they aren't doing it out of charity, everything that we import by sea will become more expensive (again this is bad). So trumpet it as a Brexit success story if you will (and it seems like the only one you have), but you are turning a blind eye to reality to make it fit your agenda. You know, like you're accusing all remainers of doing.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 11:43 am
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If you would prefer that we really on one Port in the S of England with limited transport infrastructure then go ahead.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 11:50 am
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If you would prefer that we really on one Port in the S of England with limited transport infrastructure then go ahead.

Here's an idea - maybe that investment can be made WITHOUT Brexit, has that occurred to you? I know it doesn't fit your scenario, but just imagine for once that good things can happen without it.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 11:52 am
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That would be even better, true. Unfortunately....


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 12:03 pm
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Everyone seems to want a "bespoke" FTA.

No one can agree what that should entail.

Any attempt to define the new relationship, with the countries around us, results in pouting Brexit cheerleaders moaning that is wasn't what the people voted for.

There will not be a new relationship, with supporting FTA, that proves to be more popular with the public than remaining a member of the EU, with the bespoke and envied deal we already have.

The unpopularity of each possible form of Brexit shows how useless the vote we held on 2016 is for informing our path forward from here.

What is there exactly to unite behind? The only thing anyone can agree on, it seems, is that our politicans can not seem to deliver what ever it is they were proposing just over 2 years ago.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 1:39 pm
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So you are now arguing that we roll over and accept the EU’s position even though that’s not the best outcome.

First we have to decide on our position before we can assess the options. As we appear to be too incompetent to do this perhaps we are just not ready for this level of “control”

the ABP investment is good but from the numbers you quote it has only come after the ports have hit capacity pre-Brexit. If that is correct the group would seem to not be worried about the increase under normal circumstances (which imo is short sighted) but have as their hand forced by the shitshow of planning for Brexit.

one this to also understand that port capacity is meaningless if you do not have the correct haulage infrastructure to support it. As the ports are updated the roads need to be as does the driver distribution. The government (both local and national) should be a partner in the development..


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 1:49 pm
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Every day just highlights the shower we have in charge. And no credible opposition makes it worse


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 1:50 pm
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Like the M20?


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 1:54 pm
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Like the M20?

It's not my favourite, to be honest. Why do you ask?


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 2:00 pm
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The entire transport “policy” for the UK is a testament to how not to apply “joined up thinking”


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 2:08 pm
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"bespoke" is just the politically acceptable word for "unicorn"


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 3:11 pm
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A bit unfair … "bespoke" is just taken to mean "something that doesn't currently exist" … this includes the unpopular and possible, as well as the popular and impossible. Importantly though, it is utterly undefined. May has given it a go… her version is unpopular and impossible… still, we should all unite behind what no one wants, and can't be achieved.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 3:16 pm
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Maybe but the important point is that it still means all things to all people so we can all agree it's what we want, without any of us agreeing on anything at all. And it sounds very high quality like a custom-made suit, rather than rubbish and inadequate and not fit for purpose like it will actually be in reality (if we ever get as far as a negotiated agreement).

We already have a bespoke membership of the EU of course.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 3:20 pm
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As long as you don't write down anything that can be scrutinised, you can get a large minority of the public to back you. At least May has released that can't go on much longer. Unlike others.

Tick. Tock.

Getting the most popular option, our current bespoke membership deal, back on the table is a near impossible task, that is also running out of time.

Tick. Tock.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 3:24 pm
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And people chose to give that membership up, of course.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 3:28 pm
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They voted that way in the referendum, but it is not in their (our) power to give up membership. That's for the govt to do, or not.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 3:31 pm
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And both major parties are committed to doing that. One even has a leader who believes in it. #forthemajoirynotthefew


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 3:33 pm
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Sure, but a week is a long time in politics. Let's see if Labour can avoid committing to another referendum....


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 3:36 pm
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Aye who would have thought it. Unions and blairites (spit) on the same side but the momentum with the old bloke on the other one.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 3:41 pm
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And both major parties are committed to doing that.

Both major parties were committed to staying in the EU, but then the "people" told them they wanted something else. They then started down a new route. Now, they might well have to change tack again. They need to listen. And, yes, hence all the "noise" now to get them to listen. That noise will get louder. It needs to ramp up much faster than it is though. Much faster. Much louder.

Tick. Tock.


 
Posted : 09/09/2018 3:57 pm
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