We don’t want ever closer integration, we just want a trading bloc.
But on the other hand, imagine we were fully integrated already? Imagine it's 100 years in the future and the UK remains and ends up part of the United States of Europe. So what? Would you really care? How many Americans resent the people from the next State being able to affect their own? Virtually none. The country is (geographically) integrated and yet no-one cares. In fact anyone with an opinion is probably proud of that fact.
So why should we worry about it? Those damn Germans are only damn Germans because we've decided they are. If we simply decided we were European then the problem would go away.
In other words - it's all in our heads.
So let me get this straight: If it weren’t for the EU, the very Tory UK government would be collecting lots more tax from slippery multinationals?
Yes. The ECJ has legalised complex tax avoidance structures for large businesses which gives them an unfair advantage over the small business.
Why have they done that? I don't know, maybe its the huge amount of money these big businesses have been spending on lobbying them. The ECJ are literally a law unto themselves and aren't subject to the same scrutiny that UK courts are so I don't doubt corruption is involved.
But on the other hand, imagine we were fully integrated already? Imagine it’s 100 years in the future and the UK remains and ends up part of the United States of Europe. So what? Would you really care? How many Americans resent the people from the next State being able to affect their own? Virtually none. The country is (geographically) integrated and yet no-one cares. In fact anyone with an opinion is probably proud of that fact.
So why should we worry about it? Those damn Germans are only damn Germans because we’ve decided they are. If we simply decided we were European then the problem would go away.
In other words – it’s all in our heads.
Molgrips - you've answered your own question in a previous post. You said pretty much all your life you've had a government strongly opposed to all that you value. How do you think that will change when they inevitably add more countries to the Bloc? Are your values aligned to that of Turkey? The values get diluted and then represent no one. It doesn't work and thats why throughout history countries have broken apart. To force them together is a recipe for one thing - war.
How many Americans resent the people from the next State being able to affect their own? Virtually none. The country is (geographically) integrated and yet no-one cares. In fact anyone with an opinion is probably proud of that fact.
there is huge partisanship in the states and they hare federal intervention. You know that in Texas in schools they pledge their allegiance to Texas first then to either god or the USA I forget which order. Every freaking day!
They teach state history every year but don't have to teach world or US history. Each state stands alone for police, laws, environmental regulations, taxes and things like drivers licenses or IDs.
In many ways the EU is more integrated, with better communication and collaboration. For example no one is afraid the EU parliament might send troops to take away their stuff...
Yes.
I'm deeply sceptical. But what's to stop these companies lobbying the UK government after Brexit?
there is huge partisanship in the states
Nothing like there is in the EU though very obviously.
Each state stands alone for police, laws, environmental regulations, taxes
No it doesn't, because they still have Federal rules and taxes etc. on top of state.
The ECJ protects my rights from governments over reaching into my life. I need that protection here, and more importantly non-UK EEA citizens I call family and friends REALLY need that protection here.
Now I'm responding to the troll. Damn. I can smell the shit right up in my nostrils. Pehaps I should set up another STW account to engage with the troll, and keep my own, named, transparent account clean. I think that's against the spirit of the rules of this forum though, no?
I’m deeply sceptical. But what’s to stop these companies lobbying the UK government after Brexit?
None whatsoever but the legal system in the UK is one of the best in the world and I like to think good at preventing corruption and also the government here has more control and is able to propose and make laws. Once laws are enshrined in EU law we're stuffed.
Well on the plus side he's putting a lot of effort into his BS, it shows the sort of commitment that was drifting away from the previous trolls, it's almost back the the pre-flounce Brexit Evangelists, remember the good old days when Jamby would tell us all about Schrodinger's Tariff, or ninfan could get 4 replies in without shouting snowflake or lefties.
It's admirable really, if only he spent as much time on research and checking for contradictions.
yes there are federal rules and minimum taxes. States set the rules regarding punishment for crimes and how to police. This is how some states have the death penalty and others don’t. To give you an example you can drive from one side of Houston to the other and you will pass though various jurisdictions (city of xxx police) now on this trip in some of the cities you can drive on the phone and others just holding it is a 160$ fine.
Each state has unique drivers training requirements and vehicle licensing, taxing and inspection.
Each state has its own environmental regulations which may follow the EPA but in many cases have local dispensation for land which is not federally controlled.
hell if you live outside of city limits there is no planning control.
I would suggest you move to the USA and then relocate between three or four different states to see the differences not just between city laws but state ones.
i will concede that the flag waving nationalism is different but it is still there and the states fight each other for funding and business
The ECJ protects my rights from governments over reaching into my life. I need that protection here, and more importantly non-UK EEA citizens I call family and friends REALLY need that protection here.
Wow let me borrow your rose tinted spectacles... The ECJ doesn't give a shit about you it only cares about its own advancement, greater powers and closer integration. You have no recourse to the ECJ they are not accountable or responsible to you. If you want to give that away then I think you're a fool. (I only called you a fool as I was conforming to your troll stereotype but I meant the rest (-; )
Well on the plus side he’s putting a lot of effort into his BS, it shows the sort of commitment that was drifting away from the previous trolls, it’s almost back the the pre-flounce Brexit Evangelists, remember the good old days when Jamby would tell us all about Schrodinger’s Tariff, or ninfan could get 4 replies in without shouting snowflake or lefties.
It’s admirable really, if only he spent as much time on research and checking for contradictions.
Well mikewsmith you keep talking to me even when you say you have stopped and then keep talking about me. Maybe you're a closet leaver too afraid to resist the bully boys of remain? Brexit is a stab in the dark, I understand the fear, its never been done before. You can sit on your fat ass all your life and achieve nothing or you can get up, fight the fear and try and change your world (or some such shit...).
i will concede that the flag waving nationalism is different
That was my main point. People consider themselves mainly as 'American' not 'Idahoan' or whatever.
What if there were a second vote, with the option to remain on the ballot, and it won? What would happen on the day and the week following?
Lord knows really, the maddening thing is that the loudest voices on the Leave side are the most polarised - pre-referendum it was all "no ones saying anything about leaving the single market" "we want a stronger relationship with the EU, only from outside of it" etc etc, but as soon as the votes were counted the battle lines just shifted - they're calling from us to leave, now, today, don't give 'em a penny, etc etc.
If there is another vote, and history shows us it's actually likely - and lets pretend they go for for a Clash style "stay" or "go" and remain wins - it's unlikely that another PM in a generation is going to dare bring it up again, win, lose or draw the last 2 years have been highly damaging to the UK, both economically and socially.
we (Remainers) can't just start gloating "you lost, get over it" plaster the country in EU flags and pretend it didn't happen.
We can't pretend that all Leavers were a bunch of right wing nutters who don't like Pole and Turks and believe it's all 'elf and safety gone mad from the EU and there are some aspects of EU membership that doesn't seem right to a lot of sensible people.
Okay, the PM could cosy up to the Sun and Mail and sell the idea we're "getting tough on the EU" but in reality we should work with the EU to change the particulars of the EU to work for more people, but we can't ask Westminster alone to do it, Brits are going to have to give a shit about EU elections, so we don't end up with only Kippers and Nazis voting a bunch of arseholes to rep us there and Westminster HAS to stop blaming the EU every time it wants to pass and unpalatable law.
Brexit is a stab in the dark, I understand the fear, its never been done before. You can sit on your fat ass all your life and achieve nothing or you can get up, fight the fear and try and change your world (or some such shit…).
Yep after 2 years nobody can come up with a plan.
We did achieve something, we built the largest trading block on the planet, we funded huge amounts of development, protected peoples rights and worked to improve the environment. We united a continent that had been at war for far too long, put petty differences aside and promoted equality over nationalism.
Is that not working to build something, all you have offered is to burn it all down.
in reality we should work with the EU to change the particulars of the EU to work for more people, but we can’t ask Westminster alone to do it, Brits are going to have to give a shit about EU elections, so we don’t end up with only Kippers and Nazis voting a bunch of arseholes to rep us there and Westminster HAS to stop blaming the EU every time it wants to pass and unpalatable law.
Oh ffs get real man. We haven't changed a thing in decades why would it change now? The only way we can change the EU is by rejecting it. With a bit of luck it will implode and we can rip it up and start again staying true to its trade roots and abandoning the integrationist agenda.
"...fight the fear and try and change your world"
...Back to what it was 70 years ago.
Brexit is the past.
If you've got the backbone, you'd stick with the new.
i would also like to say that I meant no offence. The US does seem to be a cohesive set of states and I guess for the most part it is. From the inside there is so much less order or Organization than the EU and as far as I can tell there is only one constant law in any state. This is that school buses are king and should be feared. do not ever go near one as no good will come of it...
Yep after 2 years nobody can come up with a plan.
We did achieve something, we built the largest trading block on the planet, we funded huge amounts of development, protected peoples rights and worked to improve the environment. We united a continent that had been at war for far too long, put petty differences aside and promoted equality over nationalism.
Is that not working to build something, all you have offered is to burn it all down.
Ha ha ha ha! Now who's trolling? There's only two words in that lot that are true "we funded".
I understand the fear
I really, really do not believe that you do.
we (Remainers) can’t just start gloating “you lost, get over it” plaster the country in EU flags and pretend it didn’t happen.
No, absolutely. If we were to call the whole thing off, it would be sensible (from both sides of the argument) to try and offer something else in its place. But I said this from the outset, we should be Reform, not merely Remain. There's plenty of stuff we can do right now to put right a lot of the reasons why people said they voted to leave in the first place.
There's no way we can just go "deal's off, sorry, we've changed our minds" and hope it all goes away.
Is there a larger trading block? What is it?
So - development. Good thing, no?
Are rights unprotected?
Is the environment unprotected? Wasn’t there some sort of agreement in Paris?
So has there been another war between EU countries since 1945?
Equality, tick.
Nope, I think it’s you who’s still the troll, bananabrain.
Wrong – whilst Juncker is kind of elected though the Spitzenkandidat of the EPP, the Commission is appointed. The Parliament is required to confirm it, but this is only on a total basis not an individual basis so there is no election.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commissioner
Each Commissioner is first nominated by their member state in consultation with the Commission President. The President's team is then subject to hearings at the European Parliament, which questions them and then votes on their suitability as a whole. If members of the team are found to be inappropriate, the President must then reshuffle the team or request a new candidate from the member state or risk the whole Commission being voted down.
Yes there's a collective vote, however individual candidates can be removed during the process, but either way, they are voted into power by the parliament
Ha ha ha ha! Now who’s trolling? There’s only two words in that lot that are true “we funded”.
Still you though if you missed all the positives I can see how you ended up as a bitter brexiter trying to blame everyone else for problems.
Oh ffs get real man. We haven’t changed a thing in decades why would it change now? The only way we can change the EU is by rejecting it. With a bit of luck it will implode and we can rip it up and start again staying true to its trade roots and abandoning the integrationist agenda.
You're Jambalaya and I claim my £5
You’re Jambalaya and I claim my £5
My money's on teamhurtmore
Nope, I think it’s you who’s still the troll, bananabrain
Woppit - you have contributed absolutely nothing of value to this conversation, all you've done is copy and paste other peoples work. You clearly have all the intelligence of the whitehead spot that's forming on my left buttock. Time for a squeeze...
Does anyone know which one got made redundant recently? Some serious essays being delivered here (well the quantity is serious the content less so)
Woppit – you have contributed absolutely nothing of value to this conversation, all you’ve done is copy and paste other peoples work. You clearly have all the intelligence of the whitehead spot that’s forming on my left buttock. Time for a squeeze…
Mirror mirror on the wall...
Is there a larger trading block? What is it?
So – development. Good thing, no?
Are rights unprotected?
Is the environment unprotected? Wasn’t there some sort of agreement in Paris?
So has there been another war between EU countries since 1945?
Equality, tick.
Originally all mine. Not pasted. Care to deal or carry on looking for more of your own pus?
Yes there’s a collective vote, however individual candidates can be removed during the process, but either way, they are voted into power by the parliament
A confirmation vote doesn't constitute an election - there are no other candidates.
Yes. The ECJ has legalised complex tax avoidance structures for large businesses which gives them an unfair advantage over the small business.
This is not right, whilst they have made some highly inconvenient judgements from the tax authorities perspective, this has generally caused anti-avoidance legislation to be rewritten, they haven't legalised anything.
A confirmation vote doesn’t constitute an election – there are no other candidates.
OK so elected people, nominate, people to represent them and the wishes of their government, like we do at the UN etc. it's ****ing democratic enough for most of us and has done way more good than harm.
it’s **** democratic enough for most of us
It would seem you are wrong because we voted to leave.
It would seem you are wrong because we voted to leave.
Didn't see that one on the ballot paper. Was it above I hate foreigners or below I'm not racist but?
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Was it above I hate foreigners or below I’m not racist but?
Gosh we are really working through the greatest hits.
Well the new troll is taking us back to page 15 so far....
To conclude that everyone who voted leave was concerned by the arrangements for appointments or positions is an exaggeration. It's over reaching.
But then again what we have now is a very simple solution. There are 3 options available to the UK going forward.
1) Leave No Deal - the implications are being widely circulated at the moment.
2) Leave with a deal - nobody seems to have much clue but the starting point is £40bn in payments and then a blank bit of paper.
3) Remain - Still an option.
Which is your preferred one mefty without using "Will of the people" & "We voted to leave" clock is ticking. Which of the 3 options do you think has a majority if put to a vote?
You’re Jambalaya and I claim my £5
My money’s on teamhurtmore
I've pretty much ruled out both of those two too.
(Christ, it's not Fred is it?! 😮)
There are 3 options available to the UK going forward.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that 2) isn't realistically on the table and never has been, because Ireland and because the EU are never going to agree to a cake-and-eat-it scenario. And in any case even if it was, it's a solution neither side wants, it pleases no-one. Best case scenario here is that we're in almost the same position we're already in only we've given away our rights to have any say in anything.
“…fight the fear and try and change your world”
…Back to what it was 70 years ago.
Brexit is the past.
If you’ve got the backbone, you’d stick with the new.
😀
I’ve pretty much ruled out both of those two too.
(Christ, it’s not Fred is it?!
)
Does that matter who they are? 😀
teamhurtmore
No way. For all his faults, tiresomebore would not mix up the consequences of being in the EU with those of being in the Euro.
The new troll has said more of interest in 60 posts than you have in 46,000.
Does that matter who they are?
Well the banhammer has to land somewhere.
Could be chewkw's handler?
You regular Remoaners on here are so predictable.
As soon as someone from the Leave camp tries to give their opinion on Brexit ... they get labelled a Troll.
It really is blatantly obvious you all dont want debate - you just want other ignorant Remoaners airing their anxieties and insecurities on this thread.
You are all very pathetic.
*see you in a week or so; hopefully there will finally be a grown up debate going on.
Well the banhammer has to land somewhere.
Quite. If it's someone who shouldn't be here then they'll be removed. If it's an alt account then that breaks T&Cs so again, they'll be removed. If it's neither of those things then happy days. [Insert Fonzie picture here]
As soon as someone from the Leave camp tries to give their opinion on Brexit … they get labelled a Troll.
By a couple of people. Don't tar everyone with the same brush.
*see you in a week or so; hopefully there will finally be a grown up debate going on.
Leading by example, I see.
