[Closed] Estate Cars

it's fundamentally the wrong set up driving and steering the same wheels. It's done because it's easy to drive slowly and it's cheap to make. If you can't appreciate the advantages of RWD then you shouldn't be adding suggestions to a car thread.

First of all, you've kinda answered the point I was trying to make in my previous post.....most people don't want to drive everywhere at racing speeds revelling in the RWD-feeling. They don't give a stuff if it's FWD, RWD, AWD - so long as it goes. And clearly in this thread, the primary aim is finding a replacement estate car. Also, your comment on cost is correct, but also means that a FWD car may be more attractive to buyers as potentially less money has been spent on the transmission and more on the bits that people are bothered about.
I'd also argue that it's more to do with engineering packaging than making something easy to drive slowly.....

Often with RWD cars, testers grumble about the transmission tunnel eating into the available space, so perhaps there's a valid arguement for an estate car specifically NOT being RWD so you potentially gain load area??

Your comment about 'not commenting on a thread about cars if you can't appreaciate the advantages of RWD' is clearly nonsense. Why do I have to appreciate a RWD car to make a suggestion on a suitable estate replacement to an Octavia VRS??
In fact, it is you who tends to comment on any car thread with needless points & statistics turning it into a 'my car's faster/more powerful/handles better than yours' type thread and bring a completely irrelevant slant to the thread.

i do love STW car threads....

im hoepfully about to get a new job where i will need a 'motorway muncher' and i cant wait to post 😆

Surf-Mat - Member
Anyone that thinks a RWD car is bad in the wet can't drive. They are FUN in the wet.

I think we might have revealed the Stig's true identity as I'm sure you're capable of perfect oposite lock slides at every corner when it's wet. Anyone that wants to start sliding a car on the road is obviously a ****t. If you want to do that, go on a trackday or start racing rather than endangering the lives of other road users with your inaptitude.

I've had FWD, RWD and 4wd vehicles.

Yes, there's a difference in steering feel,and obviously with RWD you don't get that annoying wheelspin if you accelerate reasonably hard out of a wet junction.

But for easily 95% of the time, perhaps more, it makes not a jot of difference to me.

Spud - Member

Thanks for the helpful suggestions. Personally FWD or RWD couldn't give a monkeys so long as it meets the requirements of large, reliable etc.

😉

whoever tagged it is going to have to change it to surfmat = the stig, 3 words only and the equals is dubious to be honest.

Yes of course, having more than a basic interest in cars makes me a Stig wannabe... 😆

I have made my suggestions, some FWD cars included. As usual though a few folk with very limited knowledge attempt to try and stamp their authority on this thread and fail dismally. As for the dangerous driving comment - far easier to correct an out of shape RWD car in a nasty situation if you have half a clue about driving. And with IAM and Police training, I suspect I may have more of a clue than you. Still, it makes some of you feel better talking utter BS about cars in an attempt to justify yourselves so do carry on...;-)

Surf-Mat stop toying with us. You're clearly actually a spy/secret agent right?

Now you're backtracking as one moment you say that a RWD is fun in the wet which implies that you do like to try and slide it as what is fun about driving with your wheels in line at sensible speeds? But now the advantage of RWD is that it far easier to correct in a nasty situation. As me not having half a clue about driving, how would you know?

As usual though a few folk with very limited knowledge attempt to try and stamp their authority on this thread and fail dismally.

care to be specific and give examples of how you know they have limited knowledge?

And with IAM and Police training, I suspect I may have more of a clue than you

Didnt seem to make you more aware of risk if you go out and buy a car based on how "fun" it is to drive.

I've got a Masters in Driving Lunar buggies on the moon, so listen to me. I am the oracle.

For a spacious estate FWD is better because the boot floor can be lower and there is no need for a transmission tunnel.

The rest is useless typical STW ranting from the bored middle aged and middle class want to be MTBer.

attempt to try and stamp their authority on this thread and fail dismally

Pot........

Kettle.....?

For driving enjoyment, IMHO, a 3 series tourer can't be beat - even my 'cooking' 318d (still got 140-odd bhp).Traction control tames the rear end brilliantly. However, it is nowhere near as big inside as a Mondeo. Mondeos drive brilliantly too, BTW, and are much cheaper to buy. My car's a company car - if it was my money I'd have a Mondeo, no question (although one of those huge e-class Mercs with a big diesel engine would be very tempting!)
There sure is some willy-waving about cars on here. If you want to go fast, get a bike.

failedengineer "although one of those huge e-class Mercs with a big diesel engine would be very tempting!". It tempted me! Extremely smooth car to drive and about biggest end of the estate market.

The rest is useless typical STW ranting from the bored middle aged and middle class want to be MTBer.

Mate, you can be a young hardcore working class MTBer and still be a car bore, you know 🙂

To the OP - look at the stats on paper, look at reliability surveys and test drive some that look good to see which you like to drive the best. That's all you have to do to buy a car!

it's fundamentally the wrong set up driving and steering the same wheels

Fabulous bit of bullsh*t there. Manufs went to FWD (despite clear technical challenges) for several good reasons.

OMG just saw this:

And for snow - get a spare 4x4

HAH! Mat, you must learn to think before you type! You are seriously suggesting getting two cars instead of one?! 😆

"It's snowing..!"
"Oh crap! I have to race home and switch cars before it starts to stick!"

I seem to remember you on other threads saying your car was crap in snow...?

Make sure that you at least try an S-Max.

>And with IAM and Police training, I suspect I may have more of a clue than you<

Away and boil yer heid - the guy asked about big estate cars.

Funniest thread in ages! 😆

So far we have Nigel Mansell, Miss Daisy and Jeremy Clarkson on STW!

Mike - we had a 2005 Astra 1.9CDTI 150 from new and it was a decentish motor - cheap to buy, well specced, massive boot for the size of car. Made fairly well but it did go badly wrong at 42k miles (swirl flap failure) - luckily fixed under warranty. A lot of car for the money though. However a fair bit of torque and bhp meant it broke traction a lot (FRONT WHEEL DRIVE) and understeered when pushed. Learned to drive around those issues but it made wet weather driving a little interesting

It's a diesel estate, which will be driven by my wife with the kids in the back seat and two dogs in the boot. I'll make sure she knows about the understeer 🙄

Lol.

Not everyone wants or needs to thrash their car.. it's worth remembering Mat.. some of us just like to chill out when we drive.

He shoots...

He scores!

Matt I dont understand why you enjoy winding people up so much, all that happens is that you just encourage the NSBR's of the world and then say that they are the stalker weirdos. Then you get really pissed off and chuck your toys. You are a rum one and no mistake.

Surf-Mat - Member
He shoots...

He scores!

Uh-huh...... 🙄

#
# SurfMat=TheStig

quick take that down, we dont want singletrack towers up in court
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11058504 ]dont reveal who the stig is[/url]

NSBR's

?

And with IAM and Police training, I suspect I may have more of a clue than you

Well I've got my 25m swimming badge but it doesn't give me the right to be a sanctimonious tw*t 😯

And with IAM and Police training, I suspect I may have more of a clue than you.

Skimmed through some of the thread, but what do you not like about the VRS?

Suggested already but the new Superb is excellent value for money, plus the top end one is a covert R36. I would bet you get the bike in the back without taking the wheels off. Slightly different but same brand is the Yeti, i really like it, like the current Skoda lineup for the most part quirky VAGs.

The merc estates are fairly vast as well, The 5 series isnt as big as you think, the Audi A6 (boots never varied between FWD and quattros) Subaru Legacy and Volvo V70. Although the octavia boots are much deeper than the other VAG bretherin.

Any reason to rule out the more upright storage as well so the MPVesques enter in here too. Skoda Yeti or the trendy vans, particularly the VW sportline i like a lot but its bananas money for a van.

You tend to see the same sort of cars at the trail centres, the VRS is less ostentatious but certainly a good all rounder imho. How about a Mondeo ST220 estate? Similar-ish space/performance/running costs.

Biggish question is do you put the bike on the roof or does it actually go in the back? Does it matter?

Last winter our director at work left his 5 series Beemer estate on his drive because he couldn't even reverse it off his drive while people with FWD cars were driving fifteen/twenty miles through the snow

Only 2wd drive to get up our steep hill last year in the glazed ICE (never mind snow) without any wheelspin? Our Prius 🙂 complete with energy saving tyres 🙂

Jesus why didn't I get a alpine special Prius, Mondeo, whatever seeing as the clever folk here seem to think they are better than proper fast German estates that handle? The trump card? Easier for a poorly skilled rep to drive in snow and ice.... wow let's call Porsche and Ferrari and tell them they are wasting their time with their silly RWD cars because Paul the IT admin geek with a Focus claims his dream machine copes better in cold weather. Yes of course we live in The Arctic don't we? Silly car enthusiasts. Silly car journos. Silly racing drivers. What do they know eh? They should listen to the geniuses on STW... 😆

mat you come across as slightly deranged, is that intended or do you need a little rest?

It's not that I don't like the vRS. I want a change and would like something with more leg room for the kids. I'm tired of being booted in the back all the time. The Boot on the vRS is deep but not wide and the slope of the boot lid limits the load you can put above the cover.

If the OP drives a VRS, it's fair to assume that handling and performance is part of the equation.

Personally, I would look at the BMWs, particularly for an estate, as what's considered "good handling" by the mag reviewers seems to alter considerably with the type of car being reviewed.

I had a HDi 406 estate, which received universal praise for its handling. It didn't really handle. It gripped very, very well, but it didn't handle well. The tendency was towards understeer, and even with new suspension arms & correct geometry, the front wheels would toe out under braking, causing the car to follow any imperfections on the road. The seats weren't well suited to pressing on either.

On the other hand, it's difficult to not make an entertaining RWD chassis. Even something as shite as a Volvo 340 can be fun once you've got the hang of it.

Jesus why didn't I get a alpine special Prius, Mondeo, whatever seeing as the clever folk here seem to think they are better than proper fast German estates that handle?

Mat.. seriously.. listen for a second.

Different people have different requirements for their cars. So the designers make different cars to meet those requirements.

So a 3 series might be great for someone who likes a great handling car with a bit of space. However if you want say the most boot space, it's not ideal. Or if you live somewhere really snowy perhaps.

Yes, Porsche make great handling cars, but they are often undriveable in the snow. My mate used to have one. Depending on how much performance means to you, this may be a worthwhile compromise, it may not.

I don't really understand your problem here. Different cars for different desires - surely you understand that? Honestly...

Tron - brilliant post. Someone else speaking sense at last.

However if handling isn't vital, I do strongly recommend almost anything from Volvo. They are currently making excellent cars that are reliable, comfortable and very stylish. They tend to loss money fairly quickly too so can be bought for sensible money.

My Peugeot 406 doesn't handle well. What it does better than most is gets on with the journey. Fill it up, load it to the limit, drive for hours in great comfort. Not fast, but 80mph with the boot full of "important" stuff and my family on board no problem. When we drive across Europe going to the family homes the stops are required every 3 hrs for coffee or every 700 miles to top up diesel. And I don't go via Berlin to stay on flat roads, quite the opposite, the chosen route is always the E40 via Jena (Zeiss labs are there) so hills aplenty.
For handling, go for a hot hatch, a Golf GTi or a Civic R-type for example, for normal driving French cars are great.
BTW I'd love to see the average driver coping with snow, hills and ice in a "cool" car with RWD. Check "Top Gear" and racing on ice. Unless the average driver here is better than them lot, which I somehow doubt.

clam down dear... this is a forum so try accepting you arent always right 😉

suburban, I am calm, I drive a Peugeot 406 estate with the old engine, it's better than valium 😉

for normal driving French cars are great.

When they work 🙂

TBH there's been a huge amount of rubbish posted on this thread.

You can make FWD cars that handle (see the 205 GTI, Ford Puma & Ka MK1 etc.). Equally, there are some odd handling traits to FWD - it's very easy to go from power understeer to lift off oversteer in a moment, and the corrective action is to get back on the throttle - completely counter intuitive.

Same goes for RWD. Nowadays, there is little need to be terrified of flying off the road backwards into a ditch, particularly with traction control and ESP so prevalent. Snow is the downfall of any car with wide summer tyres, more than RWD specifically - Volvo made RWD cars long after everyone else had switched to FWD, and they're a) Swedish and b) Safety obsessed.

I really struggle to understand the mentality that "It's just for A to B". In an ordinary car, you can go from A to B. In a good car, you can go from A to B and really enjoy the experience.

In an ordinary car, you can go from A to B. In a good car, you can go from A to B and really enjoy the experience.

It depends on what makes you enjoy it tho.

My Passat doesn't handle well when pushed, but I love driving it from A to B when A and B are separated by 120 miles of motorway and I get a comfy ride and lots of toys. If I still lived in rural Herefordshire I'd probably not have got it - too big for the small roads and too mushy.

See what I mean? No amount of precise handling and great road holding is going to make any difference on the motorway is it?

for normal driving French cars are great.

When they work

Enjoy the experience? In the UK, with our traffic and shite roads.

Yeah good one..

I've got very different priorities to those I had when I was in my twenties. I like a car to have in priority order,

The ability to always start and not break down
Comfortable seats
Room
A good fire/ac
A good stereo
A comfortable ride
A light clutch for the inevitable jams

Increasingly comments like how it handles on the edge and people banging on about driving experience make me wonder if those making them have the sense nature gave a chicken.

I've had some fast cars but then I grew up.

Enjoy the experience? In the UK, with our traffic and shite roads.

Yeah good one..

M4 -> A34 -> M3

The second half of that is lovely.. cresting those long hills with lovely countryside and trees as far as you can see.. in the autumn it's just lovely.

If you do want it windy there are also some fabulous roads about.

You have no idea! 🙂

No amount of precise handling and great road holding is going to make any difference on the motorway is it?

Nope, but it makes a difference at either end. Even if the whole thing's dual carriageway, you can always enjoy the roundabouts 😆

But seriously, beyond the corning ability, body control and throttle response do show up on the motorway.

I used to do a lot of motorway miles when I had the 406. It did motorway miles very well. But it really felt like every A and B road journey was a missed opportunity, and it did my head in.

Mol - the A34 does have fun bits but the M3 and M4?!

My old man has just bought my Mum an 04 Focus Estate 1.8TDCI (99Bhp) with 80'000 miles on her for about 2500. It's immaculate with full service history. She does 6k a year and uses it to carry grand kids and dogs etc. It's economical, handles superbly and is cheap to service and fix. What more do you want. 😉 If it was my money I'd get a Mundano estate. I do like Beemer Estates but where I work in the winter I'd need a shovel and a set of snow chains cos they are dire in the snow.

But it really felt like every A and B road journey was a missed opportunity, and it did my head in.

I know what you mean. I actually love to drive fast. But I don't, because it's not really safe. So I take the other road, so to speak - I chill out, relax, enjoy a comfy quiet car and save my race head for the MTB 🙂

Increasingly comments like how it handles on the edge and people banging on about driving experience make me wonder if those making them have the sense nature gave a chicken.

You don't need to be anywhere near the limits of grip to be able to tell the difference between good and average handling. Richard Parry-Jones, who knew a hell of a lot about vehicle dynamics, used to reckon you could tell if a car was any cop in 50 metres of low speed driving.

Tron - its an excuse to try and justify a dull car. Appear to know everything about them then pull the old driving fast isn't safe card when it suits.

Tron - its an excuse to try and justify a dull car.

Total b*llocks.

Why can't you comprehend that people have different criteria to you? I'm quite amazed.

What floats your boat doesn't float mine. Why is this difficult to understand?

I know full well that BMWs handle well - I could easily afford one. So why didn't I buy one?

apologies oh hairychested one one it was targetted at Surf-Mat, although for someone with an apparent brilliance for all things suggested a focused RWD car opted for a desiel?! now that is a cruel twist

make it so...

Mol - easily afford one? Another reference to your fabulous career success...

I do not profess to know much about cars but I know all about BMW drivers.

Mol - easily afford one? Another reference to your fabulous career success...

Is it f*ck. Stop being such a nobber. Are you trying to get me to not like you and stop sticking up for you on the forum?

Answer the other points. Is it WRONG for someone to want a nice soft comfy car for mainly motorway driving?

Diesel is cheaper than petrol to buy as fuel here in Ireland, the car needs less of it anyway, if anybody tails me I can give their lungs some fresh black smoke easily, no faults clearly 🙂
Besides, if you ever heard my vastly upgraded car stereo you'd appreciate an old-school oil burner with a pseudo-turbo.

shock horror everyone has different opinions!

Obviously the surf dude couldnt afford a pwoper RWD car!

to the OP I suggest posting this on pistonheads or some other car specific forum where you might get a measured response, or check out the vehicles at a busy sunday morning trail centre!

JonEdwards - Member
320d tourer here. Like it. Not as economical as my old Passat, surprisingly little difference in internal space - with the seats up the Beemer has much better rear legroom than the VW, but a smaller boot, seats down, its a little narrower between the arches, but not a lot. Length is give or take the same.

I can only imagine that there is a huge difference between saloons and estates then, as having had both a Passat and 3 series the difference in size was massive - the Passat dwarfing the Beemer.

As for RWD - mine would rather face sideways than forward in the wet - although it does weigh approx 1.5t at the front and 0.5t at the rear with leaf springs to boot 😉

The cars I see most often stranded in the snow are RWD - although mine wouldn't be one of them (it has 4wd too).

I've found in my experience FWD are safer to drive than RWD and the 'driving experience' of a RWD is only a deciding factor if you actually are the Stig, or Surf-Mat.

OP - You never mentioned a budget mate?

[b]Cheap[/b] - Vectra estate CDTI 150Bhp or 3.0V6 diesel with the 185 Bhp as it will swallow everything and more...

[b]Middle of the road[/b] - Passat or Superb 140Bhp or 170Bhp TDI variants

[b]High end[/b] - Audi 3.0 Diesel (240 bhp one) or a BMW 3.0D

Mol - you have been rather two faced a number of times recently... I like you but you still love a snidey dig quite often. There are some very clueless people trying to contribute here. The person above isn't one of them.

Two faced?

You mean with talking about cars, or saying one thing to someone and another to someone else?

With the latter, I try very hard not to do this. Of course, I get annoyed sometimes, and then I try and calm myself down and be reasonable. I dunno what you're getting at specifically tho.

But I do disagree with you saying I show off about wealth. I've mentioned my job on here, you know what cars I drive and how old they are.. none of it is special in any way. Showing off would be the very last thing I'd ever want to do.

I sometimes make ridiculous snobby or derogatory statements - I hope people know those are in jest.

Surf-Mat - Member
Mol - you have been rather two faced a number of times recently... I like you but you still love a snidey dig quite often. There are some very clueless people trying to contribute here. [b]The person above isn't one of them.[/b]

But the person above lists all FWD cars, except one.

Ahh, I see.

Surf-Mat, I hate to say it, as believe me I really hated the negative vibes going your way at first, but you really do come across as a complete cock on this thread, & yes I have a clue about how to drive...

Best of luck with defending your forum persona, I'm sure you are decent enough in the real world.

Theartistformerlyknown - the new Audi 3.0 diesels are all quattro as far as i can recall 😕

My view is very simple, anything about 200 to 250 bhp is perfectly managable on a front wheel car if its set up is done properly, ie Lsd, decent breaks, shocks/springs but anything above this kind of power will benefit from rear or all wheel drive. So for an ordinary family car its whatever floats your boat 🙂

And with IAM and Police training, I suspect I may have more of a clue than you.

the OP I suggest posting this on pistonheads or some other car specific forum where you might get a measured response

I've been offered a Prius at a pretty keen price, what are they like?

Whats the battery life like (as in longevity before they need changing?) and service inspections- whats the cost like on those?

I don't have a problem with Prius's just think its too much of an early-adopters product at the moment.

Plus on a person level I hate a car projecting an image of me. I just prefer a car to be a solid, dependable thing not 'oh hes one of those' 🙄

8yr powertrain warranty: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/toyota/prius-2003/?section=good

I've been offered a Prius at a pretty keen price, what are they like?

cars are dull, might as well get a comfy one in a nice colour I reckon

They're a perfectly fine midsize city car. Opposite lock RWD turbo rally gods won't care for them, of course, but for the 90% of people that buy appliances for cars (inc me), they wouldn't really notice the difference.

They have a surprising amount of hatchback space. IIRC (from when I was looking at Priuses) you could fold the seats flat and lie down in the back. High boot lip, though, I think - presumably because batteries under there but maybe just design.

I wasn't worried about batteries - there's an awful lot of fanny that's talked about them on forums - Toyota did a retrospective warranty extension on them and there are very few reports of failure. Prius is on its third generation, been built for thirteen years, all made in Toyota City, Japan - there's a lot to like about them.

Prius doesn't come in estate format so has no place in this thread 😉

I was going to suggest going with whatever tickles your fancy AND getting a matching tattoo, but the thread seems to have livened itself up a bit. 😆

I don't care what the OP posted, what he really wants is an L200.

End!

I have to admit that I saw a Superb estate last night for the first time and was very impressed with it. The boot looked huge and there was more space in the back seats than my car has in the front! (well, almost)

If it were not for the fact it was a brand new car and I have a slight problem with buying new, I'd be tempted.

However, for another suggestion, what about an Omega estate? They come in a number of engine specs to suit budget and power requirements (2.5 diesel, 2.5 v6 petrol, 3.0 V6 petrol and the gei little 2.2 engine sizes), are huge inside and can be picked up for a song. I had an ex-police MV6 saloon and it is still the most comfortable car I have ever owned. Mind you, it only did 27 mpg, so maybe a candidate for LPG conversion there. Oh, and they are RWD too, so great fun in the wet.

konabunny - Member

heh - http://www.autoblog.com/2010/06/08/video-what-happens-in-an-internet-car-forum/

excellent and entirely the point! We all need a surf-Mat for this very reason 🙂

Whats the battery life like (as in longevity before they need changing?) and service inspections- whats the cost like on those?

It's designed to last the lifetime of the car. There are individual cell failures for dodgy contacts and stuff, but hardly any whole battery replacements I think. There are far more used battery packs available from crashed ones than are needed for replacements I think...

I don't have a problem with Prius's just think its too much of an early-adopters product at the moment.

Almost 2m cars sold worldwide mate.. not that early! Plenty of cars around with 200k or even 300k on the clock too.

However I think MrNutt was trolling there 🙂

Mol - the A34 does have fun bits but the M3 and M4?!

The M3 from the A303 down to Farnborough is a beautiful road, from the scenery perspective.

At least I often enjoy it on a nice day, but then I'm probably wrong 🙂

Loved the video.

I've been in the back of the new Superb (taxi's) plenty of timse and the OP's kids will have a hard time kicking his seat 🙂 They seem very well put together and a 170bhp will be close in performance to his vRS. Very comfortable ride too, much smoother than an equivalent Audi (A6). He'll very much struggle to find a nearly new one though. A bit like Mazda 6's (when I was looking recently) they are almost all bought as company cars and hence not released until 3 years old.

I've just ordered a Golf Estate to replace my Pissan Gashqai. The lease rates were better than the Octavia Estate (better residuals maybe?). Not the prettiest car, but bigger than the Qashqai and hopefully better put together. A claimed 78.5mpg was pretty attractive too 🙂

I like Golf Estates. You go for the bluemotion one?