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Bought an electric car and forgotten about it?
Of course! *slaps head* 😉
Check those ceiling mounted pull switches for showers and see if it gets hot. They can wear out and short and happily sit there burning hot for months then maybe burn your house down
Check those ceiling mounted pull switches for showers and see if it gets hot. They can wear out and short and happily sit there burning hot for months then maybe burn your house down
Cheers, but don't have any electric showers.
Just a thought, do you know what type of earthing system you’ve got? It should be noted on the paperwork the electrician gave you when the fuse board was changed
I'm chasing him for the paperwork, but he did install a new earthing rod as he couldn't find the old one (as I say, old house, shared supply with next door, interesting wiring...). Why's that?
I thought you’d say Earth rod (TT) system.
There’s potential You could have a fault that’s sending current down to Earth through the rod. It’s unlikely to be this if everything in the house is rcd protected, but if the electrician has ballsed it up then it’s a possibility. Only seen it once before on an old installation but that was sending around 24A to Earth off a 30A rewireable fused socket circuit fault. Their electricity bill dropped a fair bit after it was sorted!
Hmmmm.... Is there any way I could check that myself?
I strongly suspect your grid connection is not configured correctly and therefore 'backfeeding' your solar panels, this will convert the electrical energy into solar energy and reheat the sun.
Hope this helps.
I strongly suspect your grid connection is not configured correctly and therefore ‘backfeeding’ your solar panels,
Yeah, this is a thought/concern. We're going to isolate the panels tonight and see if that makes a difference.
Should we isolate the panels, or the panels and the invertor? It goes panels -> isolator -> inverter -> isolator -> consumer unit
At the AC isolator the consumer unit and the inverter - this would take the inverter out of the equation.
If power was being back fed the I would also expect your generation meter to be displaying 'rEd' all night as the power would be flowing the wrong way.
Surely you can just flip the breaker on the panels when they are producing and watch what the meter does: speed up, no change or slow down.
..... deleted for being daft.
Surely you can just flip the breaker on the panels when they are producing and watch what the meter does: speed up, no change or slow down.
eh?
Yeah, that confused me too.
He's referring to the old rotary type but even newer meters should have a blinking light that increases/decreases frequency with consumption. The theory being it should "speed up" or blink more often when you turn the panels off during the day.
To test the earth rod theory I'd turn the consumer unit off, if your meter is still drawing then something between the meter and CU is borked. Otherwise it's one circuit at a time.
should have a blinking light that increases/decreases frequency with consumption.
Aaaaah, that's what that light is...
To test the earth rod theory I’d turn the consumer unit off, if your meter is still drawing then something between the meter and CU is borked.
Right, just done that, and gave it a good thirty seconds and there was no flashing from the little red light on the meter, so I assume no power being drawn.
The theory being it should “speed up” or blink more often when you turn the panels off during the day.
Yes but all that's going to tell you is whether the panels are working or not - which is not the issue here.
If it’s going to Earth then it will be from a individual circuit so switching the whole board off won’t help. Maybe a simple test, assuming you don’t want to disconnect the cable from the rod and touch the end (really, don’t do that!) is if you have a smart meter with a tail clamp you could move that to the Earth cable between the board and rod and see if the usage value changes over the period of a couple of hours, if it’s not that then the reading won’t change
from about ten last night to half six this morning, we used 12kWh
12kWh divided by 8 hrs is 1.5kW. So we’re looking for a big load. That’s about half a kettle.
Instead of waiting and reading the meter you need to sit down and look at the live consumption. Easiest way with what you have is timing the gap between blinks of the light. Most meters blink 1000 times per kWh. Labelled as 1000imp/kWh. So at 1.5 kw it’ll be blinking 1500 times an hour. That’s a blink every 1500/3600 0.4s. A more normal rate would be every few seconds when there’s no big appliances on. Turn everything off. Then turn mcbs on in turn until you get the fast rate.
I strongly suspect your grid connection is not configured correctly and therefore ‘backfeeding’ your solar panels,
That would be very impressive as there is an inverter in the way which takes DC on one side and puts out AC on the other side. It only works one way....
Labelled as 1000imp/kWh.
Yep, that's what it says
A more normal rate would be every few seconds when there’s no big appliances on.
Yep, that's what it's doing. And double checked whilst boiling the kettle, and it blinked much faster then.
Maybe I need to check what it's doing in the middle of the night, I'm normally up at some point to have a pee...
Out of interest, how should it blink when we're exporting to the grid from the solar, will it not blink at all?
That would be very impressive as there is an inverter in the way which takes DC on one side and puts out AC on the other side. It only works one way….
What if (and I'm grasping here) there was a problem with the invertor, could it be drawing power from the grid and then just losing it as heat? It's in an unheated draughty stable, so it's not like we'd notice the room warming up.
**EDIT - although I assume it would be fairly warm to the touch if this was happening
Yes but all that’s going to tell you is whether the panels are working or not – which is not the issue here.
I was going with if it slowed down then something could be awry with the panel connection. It's an easy thing to troubleshoot so why not?
If it’s going to Earth then it will be from a individual circuit so switching the whole board off won’t help.
But it will tell you if the meter continues to run. Again, easy to troubleshoot.
Turn everything off. Then turn mcbs on in turn until you get the fast rate.
Yup, now this. Once you have the circuit turn individual sockets/appliances off, if everything is off then you have a leech.
What if (and I’m grasping here) there was a problem with the invertor, could it be drawing power from the grid and then just losing it as heat? It’s in an unheated draughty stable, so it’s not like we’d notice the room warming up.
At 1.5 kW continuous draw I'd have expected it to have burst into flames some time ago.
Have you thought about getting an electrician in? Someone who can stick a clamp on each circuit in turn etc and start narrowing down the problem....
@IHN is it drawing at the same time each night? Still wondering if it's connected to a neighbours heating circuit or such.
At 1.5 kW continuous draw I’d have expected it to have burst into flames some time ago.
Yep, fair enough. As I said, grasping...
Have you thought about getting an electrician in?
Yep, definitely, and if we can't find anything doing obvious checks then we will. Thing is, if it was happening in the day it would be much simpler, for them and us, but it seems like it's happening at night, and I doubt any sparky wants to be around at 3am...
@IHN is it drawing at the same time each night?
Don't know, last night was the first night we measured. Plan tonight is to isolate the solar array and see if that makes a difference. I get that it probably won't, but at least it can be crossed off. It will also be interesting to spot-check the blink rate on the meter when we're not using anything.
but it seems like it’s happening at night,
You don't have any of the old 500W PIR lights which are getting stuck on all night?
The old Halogen ones ate current for breakfast....
You don’t have any of the old 500W PIR lights which are getting stuck on all night?
We have PIRs, but they're all LED (I think) and all go off pretty quickly. Something to check though. Would a blown one still draw? There's a really old one, that never comes on and I assumed was bust, right up on the eaves at the back.
Would a blown one still draw? There’s a really old one, that never comes on and I assumed was bust, right up on the eaves at the back.
Unlikely - they normally fail by overheating and either the bulb dies or the holder fractures and the connection is lost.
This is what I would do.
Tonight, switch off half the circuits (maybe not the fridge / freezer). That will narrow it down to half tomorrow morning (either no current drawn and therefore the problem is likely in one you switched off, or current drawn and it's likely on one left on).
Then the next night, switch off half of the 'guilty half' from the first night.
Repeat until you find the circuit which causes the extra load or you've eliminated them all.
My quick dumb theory is the phantom load is always there but during the day the solar is supplying it. You notice it at night. Quick to test, disconnect the solar - does the load increase?
Out of interest, how should it blink when we’re exporting to the grid from the solar, will it not blink at all?
I can't remember, but don't forget that it will display rEd intermittently when exporting.
Does the range cooker have one of those plate warmer compartments? We had one years ago that was operated with a cylindrical push switch. There was no light to warn us if was on or off & they don’t give out enough heat to notice if your walking past. Ours got left on loads.
Right, well, after a bit of experimentation last night, we've found the culprit!
With the solar isolated, and just a 'base' load of telly boxes, router, stuff on standby etc, the blinky LED on the meter was flashing about once every three seconds. Quick maths (thanks Goldfish) got that to 20 times a minute => 1200 times an hour => 1.2kWh. That's seems quite a lot for what (we thought) was on, but fits what we've been seeing usage wise.
With a bit of structured circuit turn-on-and-offing, we discovered that none of the circuits in the house (and there's only four of them - upstairs lighting, downstairs lighting, sockets, cooker) made any difference. However, when we isolated the feed to the annexe, the flashing dropped to about once every 20 seconds, so 3per min => 180ph => 180w, seems reasonable for the 'base' stuff.
So, out to the annexe, which has it's own 'sub' CU. Circuit switching found the culprit was on the socket spur in the stables. The excitement mounts....
Out in the stable, there are four things plugged in, each on a switched socket. I switched them each off in turn.
Was it the freezer?
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No
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Was it the extension lead to the, er, extension lead (I know, I know)
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No
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Was it the controller unit to the water softener?
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No
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It was none of these things. It was the last socket, turning that off dropped the flashy rate right back down.
So, what's plugged in to the last socket..?
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...are you on the edge of your seat yet?
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The thing using up all the juice, is...
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*Masterchef-style dramatic pause*
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The pump for the borehole. It's running 24/7, and costing us, basically, a fiver a day...
I'm going to call the people now to come and take a look to see what the problem is, but the kind if annoying thing is that we're away next week but we can't switch it off as it supplies next door too.
Still, we've found the source of the problem, in no small part thanks to the advice on here, so thank all for your help.
have a quick look at this, it might help you pin point the problem with the pump quicker
https://www.northridgepumps.com/article-204_borehole-pump-troubleshooting-guide
I’m going to call the people now to come and take a look to see what the problem is, but the kind if annoying thing is that we’re away next week but we can’t switch it off as it supplies next door too.
Ask them to power it for the week when you're away!
They can just run an extension lead out to it.....
The pump for the borehole. It’s running 24/7, and costing us, and next door basically, a fiver a day…
Just sayin!
(actually it's costing more than that if it's 1Kwh x 24hrs.
Just out of interest how does the pump work - does it pump into a tank or does it supply direct pressure for both houses.
Glad you found it but it still sounds a bit messy. Can you not have it on a timer to stop it running at night?
Just sayin!
(actually it’s costing more than that if it’s 1Kwh x 24hrs.
Yeah, but in the day the solar is offsetting the draw of the pump. And next door do go halves on everything to do with the water - servicing the softener, salt for the softener etc, it's actually in the deeds of the house, but I guess though that previously the leccy usage of the pump has been fairly trivial so no-one thought about it
Just out of interest how does the pump work – does it pump into a tank or does it supply direct pressure for both houses.
I think the way it works is it pumps into a big pressurised expansion tank, and from there the water goes through the water softener and to both houses. I assume that when the expansion tank drops to a certain level the pump should run to refill it.
Can you not have it on a timer to stop it running at night?
I'm expecting a call from the water people today, I'll see what they say, and if they can't come and fix it promptly then I'll speak to next door about doing that. No pump = no water, so they need to agree (and I'm sure they will, we get on very well)
Glad you found it but it still sounds a bit messy. Can you not have it on a timer to stop it running at night?
Sounds more like a case of it needing looked at as it should only be running when there is a demand. If it supplies a tank the first thing to look at is the ball float (if it runs off line pressure or flow) or Mowbrey (float) switch(es) if it runs off a level controller. If any of those are sticking then it won't get a signal to stop. If it's none of those then you're into the realms of a spark.
I think the way it works is it pumps into a big expansion tank, and from there the water goes through the water softener and to both houses. I assume that when the expansion tank drops to a certain level the pump runs to refill it.
The tank will have a level switch if that's the case, either a [url= https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/float-switches/1946341?cm_mmc=UK-PLA-DS3A-_-google-_-CSS_UK_EN_Automation_%26_Control_Gear_Whoop-_-Float+Switches_Whoop+(2)-_-1946341&matchtype=&pla-302687749823&gclid=CjwKCAjwyryUBhBSEiwAGN5OCDkCa8xGHRtJiu4VlEkB8MXAwHxuEJ_0GzF-AIEJJ5BefXTfwqix2hoCBlsQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds ]Mowbrey[/url] type which goes through the skin of the tank or one mounted on the [url= https://www.tradepumps.com/remex-float-switch?tagrid=51602230 ]top[/url]. If you can get access it's worth checking they are moving freely as they can seize up. If you're elctrically confident and have a multimeter you can do some basic troubleshooting to see if it's producing a demand signal.
Yeah, but in the day the solar is offsetting the draw of the pump
Yes but it's 'your' power - it could be powering your stuff rather than their half of the pump.
Sounds like they're getting a great deal!!
Should only run after water has drawn off and pressure been loss, then stop at some higher holding pressure so there is a level of hysteresis. Definitely should not run 24/7. Poor design.
Yes but it’s ‘your’ power – it could be powering your stuff rather than their half of the pump.
Sounds like they’re getting a great deal!!
I get your point, but if the pump was doing what it should, i.e. only running intermittently, then there wouldn't really be an issue, as the amount they would 'owe' us would be trivial. It's only since it started running 24/7 that the costs have become more significant. I might talk to them about covering some of the costs to run it whilst it's not been right, I'll have a think.
Should only run after water has drawn off and pressure been loss, then stop at some higher holding pressure so there is a level of hysteresis. Definitely should not run 24/7.
Yep, that's how it should run. In fact, I've just been on the phone to the water people and through some diagnosis through some turning off of stoptaps and fiddling with the pressure switch, they suspect that there's a leak in the pipework within the borehole itself. Smashing, I'm sure that'll be cheap to fix... (although next door will have to go halves on that).