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I suggest you do learn what the Fraunhofer institutes do - they are a massive institution and tend to be at the leading edge of research and practical application in many of fields.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraunhofer_Society
I've only been to the Structural Durability institute in Darmstadt (so totally unrelated to this subject) but found them very impressive in an area I already had a lot of experience in (so knew what I was looking at).
So when you've failed dismally to convince anyone but yourself with your anti-EV fake news you have a petty dig about gas use, Metaheart.
One of the the first things I did when I bought my house was cut off the gas, and insulate the place, then make an efficient solar thermal water heater that thermo-syphons, and add PV, and change roof overhangs to maximise solar gain in Winter and shade in Summer. And triple glaze and make the shutters fit and plant trees and.... .
It's confortable, no bils except water/sewage. It all paid for itself in money and embedded carbon terms years back. Just a delightful place to live in.
I mean, where is all the, well, power to power them all going to come from?
It took about 30 seconds on Google to find this from the National Grid.
So to chip in with my tuppance worth to the above argument..
It seems verified that YES, EVs use more raw materials (= CO2) to make. But by 25-50k miles, they break even (i guess this depends on the battery size, with most being 40 or 80 (ish) kWh batteries. Thus, after this, they are ‘better’ from a mile by mile use.
EVEN if all the electricity was generated by coal fired plants, my understanding (and I’ll go hunt the data out..) is that each unit of energy used by the EV is less polluting.. By that I mean 1kWh of coal burnt in a huge industrial plant, with electricity sent down the cables, into the car, into the motor, into forward motion… remains less polluting than an ICE making the same forward motion from fuel.
ALso, I kinda don’t get the ‘EV are for rich people’ argument any more.
I guess if you have a perfectly functioning ICE car that you bin to get an EV, then that’s a rather fortunate financial position to be in…but…MANY people replace a car every few years it seems.
I reckon that nowadays, most similarly specced EVs are closely priced to ICE counterparts. Especially in the second hand market.
I often drive past used car lots and am surprised by the make mode, and year of ICE cars for sale at almost identical prices to what I got the Polestar for. And I’d admit, the Polestar is a fancy car. Our leaf is worth about £7-8k I reckon, and that’s easily on par with similar age/mileage ICE cars.
I guess something that skews the situation is that, I guess, it’s pretty risky to buy a ‘banger EV’ for a few hundred quid, whereas most of us in our lives have has a sub £1k ICE for a period of time!
Anyway… no-one is forcing anyone to drive/buy/rent/lick an EV..i never get all the EV hatred from people who’ve not even had a ride in one!
DrP
And to add balance… though I love my EV…i still, at times, would love a chassis twisting ICE up front burbling away!
EDIT from the National grid page posted above:
“Fully Charged’s video Volts for Oil estimates that refining 1 gallon of petrol would use around 4.5kWh of electricity – so, as we start to use less petrol or diesel cars, some of that electricity capacity could become available.”
I hadn’t thought of that… so for each gallon of petrol coming out of a pump, it’s already used enough electricity for a typical EV to travel about 18 miles
I mean, where is all the, well, power to power them all going to come from?
Maybe talk to our Grandparents etc and ask them how the UK built the National Grid and powered it back in the 40's & 50's - along with electrified pretty much every building that a citizen requested.
Or are you saying we've forgotten how to do this?
Me OK?
What you can't see on this forum is the rest of peoples' lives. STW got the time it took to make three posts, made with a smile for two of them and a wry smile for the third.
Seven hours were spent walking in the Pyrenees, a couple watching the Olympics, an hour reading a magazine, some eating and drinking, a siesta... .
Anger? A few minutes when watching the news, Israel, Putin, riots... not much I can do about those though. And things I can do something about I tend to get on with doing something rather than worry about it.
JUst to kind of bring this back a bit on topic....At the weekend missus took the EV to Anglessey (from Liverpool - car was at 80% charge at the start of the journey) - came back and picked me up. We then travelled to Chester to pick a friend up and headed down the M56 heading to a gig near Wigan. . Battery was at 16%, was close to having enough miles to do the full return journey but we had already planned to stop to pick up a coffee and food as missus hadn't eaten. Plugged car into the fast charging, went for a wee break, bought a coffee and she picked up her food. Back at the car about 20ish minutes later and the car was at 72% charged.
My ICE would have made the journey without needing fuel, but the missus would have still wanted to stop to get some food. It wasn't cheap, cost £36 to top up. Probably a touch more expensive than what the equivalent distance in petrol.
It was a very simple experience. No queue for the chargers, 3 empty fast chargers and loads of medium speed chargers available. Coffee and food from Leon was also very nice for those interested!
Probably a touch more expensive than what the equivalent distance in petrol.
What price per litre?
Only asking as we did 400 miles on Saturday, filled up (diesel) locally at 142ppl yet saw many stations on the journey at +170ppl.
ALso, I kinda don’t get the ‘EV are for rich people’ argument any more.
Oh apart from the fact that you mostly need a private off-road parking space to be able to have low cost private charging. So you have to be able to afford a house with off-road parking before you can benefit from cheap EV motoring.
Edit: of my 4 kids who have left home (2 have bought houses, 1 has bought a flat & 1 is renting) only 1 could charge an EV at home & they are the ones renting and would mean trailing a cable out the front door or window impacting nighttime security.
So you have to be able to afford a house with off-road parking before you can benefit from cheap EV motoring.
As mentioned above, used EVs are at comparable prices to used ICE cars and worst case public charging is about the same cost as petrol. So in that regard, if you can afford to run an ICE then an EV is affordable. (acknowledging that access to public charging is patchy so not necessarily equivalent to access to petrol/diesely)
IMO the whole "EVs are cheap to run" narrative was a bit of a mis step if you want to get mass adoption because it relies on having access to a private charger and also relies on HM Treasury not levying some other tax to recoup the income they're losing from tax and duty on fuel.
The cost of public charging is as you say highly dissasive, Dickyboy. Locally the 22kW chargers have gone from slightly over the domestic rate to over double the domestic rate in the last year.
Getting an outside socket for a granny charger requires drilling an 8mm hole, not a major obstacle. That does mean having a private drive though so your main point about needing a house stands.
As mentioned above, used EVs are at comparable prices to used ICE cars and worst case public charging is about the same cost as petrol. So in that regard, if you can afford to run an ICE then an EV is affordable.
Cool, you can get EVs for about a grand now then? Excellent, where do I sign up?
Cool, you can get EVs for about a grand now then
Fair point - clumsy wording on my part. Argument still stands for some, but not all used ICEs.
@intheborders - I was basing that on topping up at motorway services, like for like. I could have charged the car for 30 mins at home and would have had enough battery life to complete my journey - this would have cost me a couple of quid. But missus wanted to get food from Leon at the service station (she really likes their food!).
Last time I topped up the ICE it was £1.49 per litre. Motorway was £1.72.
I live in a flat, fortunately it has secure underground parking with EV charging. Its not linked to my flat, but its not overly expensive to charge, I pay a monthly rate based on usage. But I do also charge the car at my girlfriends who has a driveway with an OHME charger.
I completely agree that the cheap to run narrative is only true for those people who have the offroad charging option. I'm looking at buying a new place and its not easy to find flats at a reasonable price with the secure parking where I can charge an EV. I have also looked at houses, but most houses in my price range are terraced with onstreet parking.
I completely agree that the cheap to run narrative is only true for those people who have the offroad charging option. I’m looking at buying a new place and its not easy to find flats at a reasonable price with the secure parking where I can charge an EV. I have also looked at houses, but most houses in my price range are terraced with onstreet parking.
As said above we need the authorities to pull their finger out* and sort out the national infrastructure - install curb-side charging networks for example would greatly sort out on-street parking.
* - yes I know it's down to a previous Govt that wanted to be in 'power' but didn't want to 'govern' and Labour have (currently) bigger issues, but add it to the list
The real solution to the EV charging infrastructure is widespread destination charging. 350kw DC mega chargers are fine for the motorway network but the real need is for lots and lots of relatively cheap to install, 7 or 11kw ac charging everywhere that cars are parked for periods of time. If this existed then it would remove the barriers to EV ownership for those who don’t have access to home charging.
I have a home charger but have never used it in 2 years as I charge in the car park at work. Most cars are stationary for a huge chunk of their existence and if slow chargers were much more widespread then charging speeds would become irrelevant unless on a long journey.
Here’s a Yorkshireman to explain it better than I can…
"EVEN if all the electricity was generated by coal fired plants"
Just to be picky, Britain uses negligible coal power nowadays, the power stations all but shut down a few years ago (well ahead of schedule...)
Oh I know this...
I was just trying to point out that it's likely to be more efficient use of a fossil fuel (burning it to generate electricity for an EV) than the process of putting the fossil fuel in an ICE vehicle..
DrP
the real need is for lots and lots of relatively cheap to install, 7 or 11kw ac charging everywhere that cars are parked for periods of time. If this existed then it would remove the barriers to EV ownership for those who don’t have access to home charging.
I have a home charger but have never used it in 2 years as I charge in the car park at work. Most cars are stationary for a huge chunk of their existence and if slow chargers were much more widespread then charging speeds would become irrelevant unless on a long journey.
Have a look at Eftelling... Theme park in the Netherlands...
I've been there several times (and going back again next year)..
Loads of 7kW chargers in the main car park, and leads in each of the accommodation car parks...
Ideal...
I reckon most locals/dutch can fill up enough whilst at the park for the day, and us 'foriners' can charge over a few days in the accommodation parking...
DrP
I live in a flat, fortunately it has secure underground parking with EV charging. Its not linked to my flat, but its not overly expensive to charge, I pay a monthly rate based on usage. But I do also charge the car at my girlfriends who has a driveway with an OHME charger.
Dont fall out with the girlfriend. Public chargers at motorway services can be 10x price of using a home charger off peak. Makes the 23p a litre difference look like a bargain.
In all seriousness all nice any easy for us who’ve got a nice big drive and can splash out on the installation (mine was £2k) but let’s not kid ourselves the average Joe is going to be able to run an EV economically using only public charging. Before we say granny charging my car would take 75 hours for a full charge.
In all seriousness all nice any easy for us who’ve got a nice big drive and can splash out on the installation (mine was £2k) but let’s not kid ourselves the average Joe is going to be able to run an EV economically using only public charging. Before we say granny charging my car would take 75 hours for a full charge.
See my earlier comment; if there were countrywide curbside charges and you could charge your EV in front of your house, would you have spent £2k to put one on your drive?
if there were countrywide curbside charges and you could charge your EV in front of your house, would you have spent £2k to put one on your drive?
would very much depend on the cost of using those curbside chargers primarily, with consideration also given to how busy they were (presumably not very if they were country wide), and how much of a faff they were to use/pay for .
Me and the girlfriend worked out that the £1100 I spent on the home charger would be paid back in 8 months by saving on fuel. Thats based on my ICE costing me £60 a week in fuel. If I only did home charging the costs is approximately £15 per week.
8 months of fuel would be £1900. 8 months of electricity is £500. (rudimentary man maths I know!)
Its not as simple as that though, we do charge occassionally at the motorway and at my flat. So will take approx 1 year before we break even. I've had the car since April, done just under 7000 miles.
The problem I see with street charging is the initial cost of deployment is going to be high. That money is going to have to be recouped somoehow, I would imagine this is recouped in the usage cost. Also, the cost of new EVs are way too high in my opinion, mine is leased via the salary sacrifice scheme, so I get an ok deal (relative to what it would cost on PCP). But this is really of benefit to the higher tax payers. Which in my simple mind kind of says....if you have a house with a driveway and earning a good income then you can save more money by getting a new EV. If you are on a lower income, live in a flat/terraced house you will continue to pay higher for your fuel (electricity or keep an ICE).
See my earlier comment; if there were countrywide curbside charges and you could charge your EV in front of your house, would you have spent £2k to put one on your drive?
But there isn’t. Let’s say someone decided to, how would they make the business case on recouping the investment. I suspect through charging significantly per kwh as per the existing business model in place today for charging sites which can cost up to 10x that for home charging.
"China installed more solar PV than the USA has in total. Solar alone is predicted to surpass coal by 2026."
It will need to work miracles. In 2023 wind and solar generation was 16% while fossil fuels were 65%. Generation not installed capacity as obviously wind and solar generate only a fraction of headline capacity.
https://ember-climate.org/countries-and-regions/countries/china/
So, first up I’ve not been called names so that’s a definite elevation in discussion 😉
And some nice robust push back and discussion. Thanks all (and I mean all).
So, again. Power, yeah google google.
My statement was more based on my direct experience with the local DNO in Scotland and various discussions over the years and cemented by various (MEP) industry articles and webinars. First up a ‘forum’ discussion with the DNO (from memory again, I couldn’t find my screenshots I thought I had) was talking about grid capacity, typical house ‘allowance’ and how these were changing in accordance with likely provision for a) EV charging and b) (AS)HP installations. I think the basic allowance (for diversity purposes from memory) used to be 4-6 kW but now the allowance is +3kW for EVC and 3-4kW for HP so now 10-12 kW/house. At that point the discussion veered of into 3 Phase electricity distribution required as being the norm…
Webinars, etc., (when looking at the decarbonisation of heating when hydrogen was still viewed as a viable option) identified that the biggest issue is the capacity of the gas grid was greater than the (spare?) electrical grid capacity. I don’t have certified figures to hand but something like electricity constant at <20GW but gas fluctuates up to ~120GW in winter (electricity 50GW/Gas 200GW) so ‘transferring heat demand from gas to electricity can add a significant capacity requirement. Even with HP CoP of 3 this could double the system demand. This is from the webinar screen shots, I don’t have a link for external purposes
And now add in EV charging…. I’m not just not making shit up here. There are industry wide concerns expressed here.
I also have some experience in EVCP provision and DNO application. If you want to find out the average cost of fast charger addition to petrol stations you can probably find out by searching the Planning portals. For BC fees I think they are around £.5million. I’m going to hazard an estimate that £200k of that is the infrastructure cost just to get electricity supply in (not the civils associated works as DNO will exclude those or give a separate quote that).
As of June 2023 in Scotland all new non-domestic developments with >10 parking spaces need to provide 10% of total spaces with EVCP’s (and infrastructure (cable ducts?) for the ‘ability’ for future extension of a further 40%. Congratulations building owners you are now a fuel supplier! This is why Charge Place Scotland, who has charge/payment facilities provision (and why LA’s are using them, who wants to bring in a dedicated team to cover this, costs too much...). And your destination EVCP were about £10k/(<8kW)unit and ‘fast’ (22kW?) £25k/unit… All of a sudden, car fuel delivery infrastructure is being paid for building owners…
I understand the reasoning behind it all but its a significant shift in infrastructure provision that isn’t funded by government. For schools, that’s straight out of the education capital budget… yup, EV might even be detrimental for your children’s education… Add in the 30% construction inflation the last couple years (Covid, Ukraine war, CoL) its a bit of a squeeze.
Personally I would renationalise Electricity Supply, roll it out as an infrastructure project.
Where there's a will... .
Most people are using fridges, freezers, routers, servers, lights ovens, hobs. In Ireland servers have overtaken domestic consumption:
Now there's a really significant new demand but the grid is still doing fine and steadily getting decarbonised
https://www.eirgrid.ie/grid/real-time-system-information
Here's a half full glass for you, Metalheart. You are clutching at plenty of straws to drink it with:
EV might even be detrimental for your children’s education
🙂
I've noticed the IECharge chargers I've been using are situated near grid transformers, no coincidence there. Many of the Superchargers are situated near the transformers in industrial zones, zones that have plenty of surplus capacity as their legacy businesses have become more energy efficient or gone under. I doubt the 12 Superchargers in ST André de Cubsac take as much juice as the Ford automatic gearbox plant used to.
Jap EVs have obligatory software that allows them to export to the grid if needs be, the new Renault 5 can do that too. Part of the storage solutions to cope with intermittent renewable supplies.
The glass is well over half full, cheer up , buy an EV if you really need a car and have a little faith.
Re. The EV’s are for the affluent:
1. Car cost, a quick google (RAC website) says Nissan Leaf £26k, mid range £28-50k the upwards. My last vehicle (Berlingo van) was <£15k, taxed and insured on the road (albeit pre-reg, but brand new, single digit miles on the odo). Car before that Skoda Roomster (£11.5k pre-reg) that’s my last 10+ years vehicle purchase. I get ICE car costs have skyrocketed too, but it ain’t cheap…
2. Home charging, already covered by others. I don’t own my house (I rent) am I going to ‘invest’ in a charger? Will my landlord let me? And I’m in a house. Flatted accommodation with on street parking… social housing, etc. That’s what I mean. Drop your middle class privilege and its not so rosy…
Additionally in 4.5 years of owning my van I’ve done less that 28k miles. It doesn’t justify replacement at this point in time. Embodied carbon and all that…
Of course EV is much better in use than fossil fuels but you need to do the full and transparent LCA (utilising the carbon factors applicable to the country of manufacture… Good luck finding EPD’s for all your components though…
LCA = life cycle assessment. For embodied carbon: LCA of the global warming potential in kgCO2e of the asset throughout its life cycle (A, B1-B5, C, i.e. Product/manfucature/construction, in use & operation, end of life). This is the definition that I missed for the PV statement previously. The report linked previously on PV LCA points why that could be valid esp when you consider that in electricity system carbon intensity (from the national grid website!) has a 65.8% decrease from 2013 - 2020 (529 gCO2/kWh in 2013 to 181 gCO2/kWh in 2020). Rate of return diminishes year on year as a result.
I’m not saying valid arguments for their can’t be made but don’t forget about embodied carbon and that its often just an offset.
And if you think embodied carbon won’t effect you, just wait for Part Z of the building regulations… 😀 (source MBS August edition)
And I have been in (even driven) EV’s.
I’ve a mate with a Tesla… I hate it, over engineered saturated in embodied carbon for no reason other its cool bro (electric door handles?!?). The controls are offset into a large tablet with shite all over the screen apart from what you need…
The Leaf I was in last week was better though! Even though it took me 5-10 minutes to work out how to detach the charging cable… (it was a car club vehicle). As others have pointed out, once you know how to use the charging you know 🙂
And whilst digging out the WLC Carbon stuff I remembered about a commercial insurer guidance thing on ‘Electric Vehicles and Managing the Risks….”
Modern vehicles contain a significant amount of combustible materials which increase the risk of spread of fire to the buildings they are parked next to…
Lithium-ion batteries creaste serious challenges for firefighting, once they are on fire a substantial volume of water is required to extinguish…
Floods - remember photos of that Tesla charging station under water?
Malicious damage… are they maintained?
Same insurer insists any charging points are >10m from a building you want insured… see RISCAuthority RC59 for details…
And just for fun, lets remember the Felicity Ace. $155 millions lost, alledged to a Porsche EV battery… No tears from me on the VAG losses….
You know there are solutions to all that.
As for building regs, the French RT 2020 is well up ther in terms of insulation and I've had no trouble meeting requirements with low-embedded carbon materials in my build.
The insulation materials: wood fibre panels which are a by-production of the local forestry exploitation. Cotton/hemp/lin insulation panels which are from recycled clothing and textile industry waste. The wood charpente, a carbon sink which will store carbon for as long as the building stands. Reused roofing tiles bought for 50cents each. Sure there's some concrete and steel because Euro 8 seismic regs apply locally, not an issue in the quantities used in the build. Heating system, no. A/C not yet.
You seem to get a kick out of this easily dismissed anti-EV scaremongering, Metalheart. Just wait... the cretaceous is only a few decades of inaction away.
Edit: just read back through the EV thread, Metalheart, we've already done all those when Squirrelking was on an anti-EV trip. He's probably bought one by now. 🙂
You really don’t get it do you, I’m not ‘anti EV’, I’m just not buying one atm as it doesn’t add up. You need to wake up to the full LCA implications and global warming potential. It’s ****ing changed fast in the last 5 years… It strikes me you don’t really appreciate the implication of what net zero actually means… and don’t forget, refrigerent (HFC’s yikes!) leaks are a (the?) major source of GWP/ carbon in building services, keep digging 🙂
I have to deal with the consequences of implementing EVCP infrastructure, if someone is going to pay for that (and its not out of the capital build budget) I’m a lot happier. What you rather spend £100+k on, school equipment/building/etc., or for transportation fuelling? It’s not free, its being paid for from cash strapped local government that has to make costs elsewhere (not just for EVCP of course). Who then has to look after and maintain it, another additional burden/cost.
You are correct about the ‘no coincidence’ about major transformer location… $$$$ if you don’t… that’s the £200k I was talking about for petrol station fast EVCP costs… for a local transformer for the electricity supply… closer to the source, cheaper it gets… (assuming there is the existing spare capacity of course). I’ve seen quotes for multi £100ks for an end of line new development cost for a<140kVA 3ph supply…. (Not for EVCP…).
And as for Building Regs (Scotland 2022), If you compare what is used for the NCM Notional Building (and allow repeating and non repeating thermal bridging) you are well into Passivhaus Classic territory for everything bar windows/glazing (albeit air tightness levels are worse which makes a big difference…)
I read that as "I'm not anti-EV but... ."
A typical ICE not only has all the embedded carbon of an EV but then turns around 8 tonnes of fuel into CO2 and stuff poisonous to humans. Understand that and the rest of your somewhat disjointed sound bites anti-EV stuff don't really amount to much. How buying an EV prevents a school being built you'll have to explain in some detail when 5p on diesel would give schools the budget they've been dreaming of and perhaps reduce the air polution around schools a fraction.
Average UK car weight 1947kg - 450kg more tha my Zoé and more than a Model 3 long range.
How buying an EV prevents a school being built you’ll have to explain
It doesn’t, I never said that. You’re over inventive imagine dream it up out of nothing. But mandatory EV charging infrastructure (the kit, cables/duct, increased electricity supply requirements, protection bollards, ALL THAT EXTRA ****ING PAINT FOR EV CHARGING SYMBOLS! 😉 ) has to be paid for somehow. In local government you HAVE to rob Peter to pay Paul, that’s the ****ing mess that we are in the UK, multiple councils were reporting of being on the brink of bankruptcy about a year ago (doubt 4 weeks has sorted that problem out). So that’s less money for something else…
Let’s add 5p/kWH to pay for it instead… (I’m with you on increased tax on diesel/petrol, just not for paying for EV charging infrastructure). EVC infrastructure either needs to a government lead (and tax funded) operation or you leave to wholly to the ‘market’ to provide (depending on your politics).
We are not all as obviously affluent and wealthy as you are…
And once you understand that replacement of all ICE with EV is not the answer (not least because of all the additional EC and the associated harm with that) and that whatever does ultimately replace ICE should have a significantly reduced EC (start by stopping cars getting BIGGER) you’ll be on the path to enlightenment.
Over consumption is still over consumption regardless (I know you’ve a leaf…. Mind yer halo doesn’t slip and trip you up now).
I read that as “I’m not anti-EV but… .”
And I read your responses as ‘willy waving’ and ‘virtue signalling’. So lets not go there, eh?
What you rather spend £100+k on, school equipment/building/etc.,
So you did.
We are not all as obviously affluent and wealthy as you are…
Whilst not wishing to get personal but as you started it - I'd like to bet you are. If not you are seriously underselling the amazing credentials you keep telling us about.
Well that's enough of giving you rope for one evening, sleep tight in your exhaust fume fug.
One day you'll own an EV and love it, but probably get frustrated with the unreliable charge infrastructure, a wallet full of cards, a phone full of costly apps, random opaque prices... . One exception, the Telsa Supercharger network just works and at reasonable prices.
I’d like to bet you are. If not you are seriously underselling the amazing credentials you keep telling us about.
I work in the public sector, that has been subjected to 14 years of compounded ‘austerity’ cuts, damn right I’m underselling… in private practice I’d probably be ~£20k/annum better off (and an EV company car to boot! Just like my Tesla driving mate…).
However, I’ve never claimed specific expertise (we hate experts in the UK don’t you know). But I’ve come across a lot of stuff in my career and try and keep myself professionally educated and up to date. You will be astonished to hear that construction embodied carbon is one of my current ‘research’ topics (in pursuit of net zero).
So you did.
Do you know how many millions a school costs these days? But there’s £100k less of something…. I deliberately didn’t go emotive and say ‘books/computers’ as that’s a different budget… (OPEX vs CAPEX).
One exception, the Telsa Supercharger network just works and at reasonable prices.
The ‘market’ has actually provided for once… (but I still detest Musk). I’m waiting for someone to decide that its a legitimate target for our English patriots (TM)… wouldn’t that be ironic (hey, there’s always causalities in a ‘civil war’ elon )
"Net zero" is a political sound bite that usually demonstrates that the user is ignorant of what both "net" and "zero" really mean. People who do understand know it isn't an attainable goal and likely to mislead - which seems to be the intention of those using it..
Before man came along and started messing the Earth wavered around "net zero". Volcanic emissions were matched over the time scale of millions of years by carbon sinks - mainly carbon rich sediments- limestone, coal and oil. We're emitting orders of magnitude higher CO2 than volcanic emissions, the Earth can't mop up even a few percent of what we're emitting even with all of its natural carbon sinks intact.
We've drasticaly reduced those carbon sinks over the last few thousand years with the deforestation of the landmasses. Europe used to be mainly forest. So even if we burnt no fossil fuels CO2 would be above what it was before man started messing. So zero needs to be less than zero unless we give up agriculture.
Then burning fossil fuels, there is no concrete plan in any "net zero" declaration that stops oil, coal and gas. And if you don't you can't get net zero. The carbon storage schemes are laughably insignificant (they'll never match the methane leaks from old wells) and there are ever more proven reserves of oil and gas to convert to CO2 that will be around for thousands of years.
Have a look at the Hawaii CO2 graph. 426ppm the last time I looked, that's 50% higher than pre industrial. It takes us back to geological time periods in which life wouldn't have been very comfortable on much of the planet even if we hadn't deforested much of it. Where we're heading is very grim indeed and will be grimmer with each additional ppm of CO2.
A geologist.
Well this has just put me off. Again. If I can't roll up to a charging point, plug a world wide universal cable in, wave a random bank card and arrive back 10 minutes later with a couple of hundred miles in the "tank" I don't want to know. We have finally , I believe , got to the point where one type of USB cable is being rolled out. Surely we could do the same with EV chargers. Not allow any to be built unless they are identical. Stuff the manufactures. It's all Apple v Android or Windows anyway.
Again. If I can’t roll up to a charging point, plug a world wide universal cable in, wave a random bank card and arrive back 10 minutes later with a couple of hundred miles in the “tank
You can in England at any DC fast charger, or at least that is how it's always worked for me when I've used public chargers, I've not had a problem.
Surely we could do the same with EV chargers.
Every new EV for sale (except for 3 specific models) in the UK uses the same charging port, CCS which is for DC rapid charging and, as part of it’s design, incorporates a Type 2 Mennekes AC charging port.
The legacy ChaDeMo charging connector is only used on Renault Zoe, Nissan Leaf and,weirdly, one new Lexus. it was also used in older Japanese EV’s or Plug in Hybrids.. It’s the Betamax of charging and only exists to service these specific cars. I’ve never seen a stand-alone ChakaDeMus charger. There’s always a CCS/ Type 2 charger alongside it.
Charging connectors in the UK are as close as it’s possible to get to being universal between models.
It's this thread a really long winded way for metalheart to simply say "an EV doesn't suit my needs right now, so I'm not getting one"?
I mean... I've literally ZERO need or use for a pickup truck. I've nothing to carry in one, and it'll be too big and cumbersome. But... I'm very happy for Bob-the-builder to have one, and understand why it works for them... I'm not telling my landscaper mate that his pickup is useless and slow..cos it works for him....
Anyway...
Back to charging...
Like a lot of people things, if it's new to you, it'll seem an bit daunting. Like how filling up her car for the first time worried my step daughter...I had to help her with it..show her how to pay at pump...use the right fuel etc...
She only had cash...ah... So pay at pump WON'T work for her...fine..pay at the kiosk (which, as I think about it...those who ONLY use cash at fuel pumps won't be able to use the many 'card only' pumps at lots of ASDA stores..)
I've yet to use my electroverse card, but think that'll make things even easier in the continent..
DrP
Thanks DrP, that genuine made me laugh 😀 Especially because it does hit the nail on the head (as in it doesn’t make sense for me at sense). So apologies for that.
Of course, its not all about me… the point that I guess I was trying to make (badly, obvs) is that we have a planet of finite resources that is headed to wrack and ruin. EV’s are being held as being a solution but they don’t currently address their total global warming potential due to lack of focus on reduction of the embodied carbon (but this isn’t singular to the EV industry, we need to reduce the EC for everything and now!). We should be simplifying and reducing but instead (like all vehicles) they are getting larger and lardier. In looking up my notes for the previous answer I came across a great illustration of an ICE motor disassembled next an EV motor showing just how stark the difference is (in the EV favour). If only they would do that the rest of the vehicle…
And I have no issue acknowledging the significant local benefits of zero direct emissions transport.
But, as evidenced by the OP, the charging infrastructure needs to properly thought through, planned and funded. Ironically, in a very, very small (tiny) way, I personally have helped nudge towards this (locally).
Anyways, I can take a hint so I’ll bow out now.
If I can’t roll up to a charging point, plug a world wide universal cable in, wave a random bank card and arrive back 10 minutes later with a couple of hundred miles in the “tank” I don’t want to know.
That is literally how it works at pretty much every rapid charger in the country (if you have a Tesla it’s even easier as you just plug in and the payment is automatic).
The legacy ChaDeMo charging connector is only used on Renault Zoe, Nissan Leaf and,weirdly, one new Lexus. it was also used in older Japanese EV’s or Plug in Hybrids.
The Zoe has always had a type 2 and the 52kWh version a CCS option.
Older French EVs had a type 3 and older Japanese a type 1 or Chademo
The problem with doing what you suggest Flaperon is that you'll pay 83p to £1.20 a kWh for the privilege. It's as if the cost of petrol paid as you suggest with a credit card were £2.50. You need an app or a RFID car to get a lower price.
The problem with doing what you suggest Flaperon is that you’ll pay 83p to £1.20 a kWh for the privilege
Which major charging network (in the uk) is charging £1.20 per kwh - The most I have seen is about 85p when using a credit card, which typically reduces by about 10%-20% when you pay a monthly subscription, the higher the subscription fee the higher the reductions . BTW 85p is still too high IMO, but I think its starting to come down slowly now.
I note that Ionity in the EU charges 69 cents per kwh with no subscription, which is getting more reasonable, and it reduces to 49 cents on their cheapest subscription
Edit : just checked Ionity in the uk is 74p per kwh without a subscription, and 53p on their cheapest subscription.