[Closed] Election Campaign

The majority of Sidewinder variants utilize infrared homing for guidance; the AIM-9C variant used semi-active radar homing

As someone else pointed out it was the all-aspect AIM-9L's that made the difference in the Falklands. The AIM-9C was a very old 1st generation variant that I'm fairly sure was never used by the UK (I used to know that sort of stuff intimately but I admit it was a long while ago!).

I served on Sandy Woodwards staff a few years after the Falklands (when he was CINCNAVHOME) and we were still going through changes based on what happened in that conflict, so it's something that's always been of interest to me.

It's the conflicts that didn't happen at all.

+1 there was a very real threat that Russia would push west post the end of WW2 or into Asia. Nuclear weapons, intelligence and a few others reasons prevented that.

While no one would ever proclaim millions dead is a success proxy wars didn't have anything like the number of deaths a full on war between major power. There were ~2 million killed as a result of Korea and Vietnam, compare that to the 22-20 million military deaths alone in WW2.

Back on topic:

Is there any significance in the libdems leaking coalition policy discussion documents?

Danny Alexander is shiteing himself that he will lose his seat. That's probably the main thrust of the "leak"

Post election it will mean nothing. Despite various protestations of who will work with who political pragmatism will win the day and very few deals will actually be off the table especially for centrists like the Lib Dems

dragon - Member

+1 there was a very real threat that Russia would push west post the end of WW2 or into Asia. Nuclear weapons, intelligence and a few others reasons prevented that.

Yep, the US nuclear program was very effective then. And the nuclear arms race despite bringing us to the brink of armageddon a couple of times did bankrupt the USSR and was a major reason for its fall.

But the UK's deterrant? Achieved **** all, ever. Apart from apparently travelling back in time and getting us a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, which would be fairly impressive. Trident of course achieved less than any previous UK deterrant, which is 0.1 **** alls- perhaps the only weapon in history which will lose no effectiveness when retired.

And considering that Trident's replacement was designed as a minimum effective deterrant, and has since been reduced below that minimum effective level, it'll achieve even less. Apart from diminishing our conventional forces that is.

Dunt cleggy look good for 48? Looks younger than Ed; who is 3 years his junior.
Mind you, Dave has the best looking wife. Punching well above his weight there. Must have a big whacker. Oh no, he's rich. Forgot about that.

And considering that Trident's replacement was designed as a minimum effective deterrant, and has since been reduced below that minimum effective level, it'll achieve even less. Apart from diminishing our conventional forces that is.

So Cameron is going if he doesnt win a majority.

UK and French deterrents did something very important

They tied the US in for the ride

Had the Russians rolled west, with their massive superiority in conventional forces (quantity has a quality of its very own) It would have been perfectly possible for the U.S. to step back and leave Europe to our own devices (as they nearly did in WW2) - they couldn't do that because of the inevitable escalation if the UK or France went nuclear.

below that minimum effective level

The 40 deployed warheads (ramped up to 140+ At fairly short notice if the political climate changed) is enough to give any continental superpower a bloody bad headache

So miliband has gone even further on the SNP issue. A little too far maybe as there was no need for him to say he'd rather not be in govt if it meant having a deal with them. Looks like the labour leadership are going for broke, but it gives no clues as to what they plan to do if the Tories can't get a majority.

I think Miliband had no choice but to rule it out, the question is whether he will stick to that pledge , I'd like to think he would, he stood up to Murdoch and as a result has seen a very cynical concerted attack from the Suns and the Times and as for Daily Mail.... !

Either way I think its a nod to help prop up Muppet Murphy

Yes, that was rather daft by Miliband - though really it's not much different from what he's been saying for a while. Only rules out a formal deal, not case-by-case negotiations.

Still, it was badly phrased and won't help him in the slightest north of the border. Both parties are now desperately trying to outdo each other in how much they want to disenfranchise Scots.

Mind you, Dave has the best looking wife. Punching well above his weight there. Must have a big whacker. Oh no, he's rich. Forgot about that.

Sad little comment.

Still, it was badly phrased

Too right. There is no wriggle room in that statement at all. Any sort of arrangement, even for specific votes, will be the 'deal' that he has strenuously ruled out.

Then again, he's screwed north of the border - any statement which leaves the possibility of an SNP arrangement betrays 50-odd Labour candidates.

Lose-lose situation. Does anyone think that he doesn't actually want the poisoned chalice of a minority government dependent on a party which has so much bad blood with the Labour Party?

If it was true he may as well have said ...I dont want to be PM vote for me.
Very daft thing to do from Ed.

I think Miliband had no choice but to rule it out, the question is whether he will stick to that pledge

He had every choice and as you note [those of us savvy enough- ie everyone interested in politics who can do maths] know he will have to do some deal with them to be PM so it was incredibly unwise ; he will have to do a Clegg now to be PM

What a tit...even I am struggling to vote for him now but they ar eall I have to beat the Tories.....how i wish we had PR

Miliband's stance makes perfect sense to me for the following reasons;

If Labour enter a coalition with the SNP Scottish voters will know voting SNP can get them into government/position of influence in Westminster. That will solidify the SNP vote in GE's into the future. That is very bad for Labour and short term pain on not being in a coalition government is worth bearing. Miliband is also taking the view that the stance will help Labour in this election.

Second, the SNP are very unpopular South of the border. The belief that Labour could enter a coalition with the SNP could cost them seats in the rest of the UK due to tactical anti SNP (Labour) voting

Finally, Miliband looks incredibly weak vs Sturgeon and Salmond, rightly or wrongly the electorate believe the SNP would exert undue and unwelcome influence over Labour. Ruling out a coalition shows him standing up to the SNP and their version of "what will happen" - same as the currency issue in the referendum where the SNP kept telling everyone how it was going to be even when it was ruled out by the 3 main UK parties.

FYI I didn't watch any of the QT stuff - all pointless show baoting IMO

I think they've calculated that being in govt probably with less seats than the tories and relying on SNP support would be a poisoned chalice. Better to let the tories form a lame-duck govt then vote it down at a time of their choosing when the political climate is kinder.

I feel I should forbear from comment - I wouldn't want to intrude on your Milligrief...

Miliband's stance makes perfect sense to me

Both parties are now desperately trying to outdo each other in how much they want to disenfranchise Scots.

Bo****ks - neither party has a problem with Scots, they have a problem with a political party that is ideologically opposed to the union and wants to ignore the democratic will of the people by forcing through their agenda by other means.

Edit - of course, without being trapped by the west Lothian question with so many of their own Mps there, Labour will now have no substantive reason to deny EVEL, so the likely first move by a minority leadership of either red or blue will be to kill SNPs influence in parliament by limiting Scottish MPs ability to vote on English issues.

Happy Labour Day. Unusual arrangement of the Red Flag by Bill Bragg. I like it.

Another separate post me 😉

They can still be in government without formal support of the SNP with less MPs than the Tories, they are daring the SNP to vote against them, difficult for SNP to do when they have said let's lock the Tories out of power. Smart electorally, whether it will survive the reality of government is another matter.

Bo****ks - neither party has a problem with Scots, they have a problem with a political party that is ideologically opposed to the union and wants to ignore the democratic will of the people by forcing through their agenda by other means.

wants to ignore the democratic will of the people by forcing through their agenda by other means.

You seem to be arguing that winning an election is undemocratic 😕

Well played Jamby with the second post 😆

Miliband saying that he is “not going to have a Labour government if it means deals or coalitions with the SNP” convinces me even more that Labour isn't fit to govern.

Labour has mostly promised if elected to govern like the Tories, the few vaguely different policies to the Tories are pitiful. Now Miliband has made it clear that these few pitiful policies are so unimportant, and have so little value, that he would rather not bother trying to implement them if this required any sort of deal with the SNP.

And Miliband obviously believes that there is no chance that Labour would sack him and replace him with someone who was prepared to do deals if this allowed Labour to implement some of these "vital" policies. He knows that the Leader's grip on power is total.

All of which couldn't spell more clearly today's Labour Party's priorities, and the number one priority is not the people.

Miliband might be telling the Scottish people that unless they play by his rules he won't be playing at all but I hope they give him the response he deserves and tell him to go and get stuffed. I'm sure they will.

If you vote for a party that is standing in less than 8% of the seats, there is a very strong likelihood they are not going to be able to form a majority government.

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/miliband-rules-out-forming-a-government-2015031796342 ]http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/miliband-rules-out-forming-a-government-2015031796342[/url]

The trouble is, right now we have a Labour party that's unwilling to form a stable government and a Tory party that can't. That's not good for the country either way. And no obvious exit from this situation. either.

The only people who're happy about Miliband's announcement seem to be
a) People who assume he's lying.
b) Rabid SNP haters
c) Delusional Labour voters who think it'll win them back 50 seats
d) Tories.

ninfan - Member

wants to ignore the democratic will of the people by forcing through their agenda by other means.

By running in an election and getting loads of seats then working with other elected parties in the UK parliament?

Miliband saying that he is “not going to have a Labour government if it means deals or coalitions with the SNP” convinces me even more that Labour isn't fit to govern.

Indeed. When I saw him come out with that last night, I thought given the present situation, its possibly the most ridiculously shoot-yourself-in-the-foot statement I'd ever heard. The man is a buffoon!

Labour have been put in a box by a pincer from the Tories and SNP, so his only option IMO was to come out and say to possible labour voters 'if you want us you have to vote for us'. His problem is nothing he says is forceful or sincere so no one believes him. Labour deserve to lose for picking such a lame leader who is constantly outmaneuvered.

Second, the SNP are very unpopular South of the border.

Unpopular with Tory voters, maybe.

[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/wider-political-news/poll-shows-sturgeon-is-now-the-most-popular-politician-across-britain.124601616 ]Poll shows Sturgeon is now the most popular politician across Britain[/url]

The poll, conducted during the middle of this month, shows that across Britain Ms Sturgeon has the highest net approval rating of +33; a record for TNS. She is followed by Ukip's Nigel Farage on +12, Conservative leader David Cameron on +7, Labour leader Ed Miliband on -8 and Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg on -22.

Among men, she has the highest net rating of +32 and among women of +35. Similarly, she tops ratings across every different age group from +17 among 18 to 24-year-olds to +43 among over 65s.

In every part of Britain,the First Minister is also top of the polling from +30 in north-east England to +38 in Wales and the West Country and +33 in Greater London.

In Scotland, she is the only leader to have a positive rating; +55. Mr Miliband polled -2, Mr Cameron - 7, Mr Farage - 15 and Mr Clegg - 34.

I have a postal vote arranged. I'm in a secure Tory seat, the only possible protest would be to vote Labour. Ed would rather have Tories in power than co-operate with the SNP, who to my mind are close to True Labour. The first of the unions has broken ranks to say so.

I just shredded the postal vote. Forty years of voting, and today I think it's pointless. Will no-one stab the creep in the back: [i]Et tu, Bruv[/i]?

@ben: I wonder how many party members SNP have in England.

His problem is nothing he says is forceful or sincere so no one believes him.

Well that's nonsense. Much as I dislike Miliband he is far and away the most honest and believable of all the major party leaders imo.

He and Ed Balls have been extremely careful not to make anything more than a handful of promises, they clearly have no intention in saying things which they know they can't deliver.

I believe Miliband in pretty much everything he says, the only serious doubt I've had so far is his repeated claim that he would never come to any sort of arrangement with the SNP.

In contrast Cameron and Clegg come across as totally insincere and prepared to say anything to get reelected, Cameron's mysterious extra £8 billion which he claims he will magically find for the NHS being a good example.

Also despite my support for the SNP position on Scotland I actually think that Labour's criticism of the SNP policy is valid - you have to put your money where your rhetoric is, and the SNP hasn't.

I think Miliband/Labour have been extraordinarily honest and sincere, listen carefully to what they are saying.

Loving the outrage here ....

How dare Ed stick to his principles !

He should be more like the others and insist that the electorate vote tactically like Rupert Murdoch told them to

Bo****ks - neither party has a problem with Scots, they have a problem with a political party that is ideologically opposed to the union and wants to ignore the democratic will of the people by forcing through their agenda by other means.

Can you expand on this please? Scotland will only become independent when the majority of people of voting age who live in Scotland vote for it - how is that not democratic?

[i]Miliband saying that he is “not going to have a Labour government if it means deals or coalitions with the SNP” convinces me even more that Labour isn't fit to govern.[/i]

Did you really need convincing Ernie? Hasn't it been obvious for the past five years?

I've said it before and I'll say it again...its far from perfect but CMD has done enough in the past five years to be allowed to have another five.

Ben you shouldn't confuse NS popularity with popularity for SNP. Clegg had similar high approval ratings in 2010 and still lost seats. I'm not suggesting that SNP will lose seats, but just to show leader approval ratings doesn't necessarily link to votes.

Unpopular with Tory voters, maybe.

Thanks for that link bencooper. I tried to find a link to challenge jambalaya's astonishing claim which I knew wasn't true but gave up after a couple of attempts.

Mind you it surprised even me that the SNP's leader support should be so great in England, and more in London than the north.

It just goes to show that standing up to Tory policies get receive support throughout the UK.

Stolen from elsewhere...

[i]If the SNP do really well and hold the balance of power,
1/ one or more of the London parties will have to co operate with them
OR
2/ All the London parties will have to co operate to freeze out Scotlands democratically elected representatives.
OR
3/They can tell the queen a government can’t be formed and she will call a new election or maybe just chop their heads off for being so nasty to her people from Scotland.[/i]

... a comments on 'wingsover_'.

Freezing out the Scots voters and their elected representatives will make the call for a referendum appeal to more.

Clegg had similar high approval ratings in 2010 and still lost seats.

In 2010 LibDem support went up slightly. Since then it has plummeted as a direct result of the LibDems jumping into bed with the Tories.

Opposition to the Tories is popular, acting like a Tory-lite isn't.

The Tories haven't won a majority for over 20 years, and they won't be winning one next week. That really says a lot.

The "To get Labour, vote Labour" line won't wash with many Scots. Scotland voted predominantly Labour last time and got Tories. Many feel let down by Labour who did next to nothing in Scotland for the last five years, hence the rise of the SNP. If it's not careful, Labour may be burning it's bridges with Scots for many years to come.
If it's not working, change it.

Opposition to the Tories is popular, acting like a Tory-lite isn't.

Tony/NL seemed to do quite well out of it

Scotland voted predominantly Labour last time and got Tories

Imagine how happy they're going to be this time if as a direct result of voting SNP they get Tories 😆

If the SNP will not vote a Labour government out, Labour don't need to consult the SNP to govern as they know they won't vote again them. They are saying to the Scottish people you can't have the best of both worlds. If you want a Labour government vote for it, otherwise expect us to ignore you. Very ballsy but a logical way to play it based on how SNP have played it.

The problem the Lib Dems had is that they then had to appeal to the same swing voters in Somerset as the other main parties - it's hard to be different when you're all appealing to the same swing voters.

The SNP aren't interested in appealing to swing voters in marginal constituencies they aren't standing in.

Basically, FPTP is a rubbish system. No matter what you think of UKIP, it's unfair that twice as many people will vote UKIP than SNP, but they'll end up with maybe 1/10th the number of MPs. No-one cared that FPTP was rubbish as long as it kept returning Labour or Tory governments, but now that it'll return lots of SNP MPs everyone's bleating that it's unfair.

The solution is to grow up, realise that FPTP is rubbish and replace it with a better system, and for parties to get used to working in coalition with others instead of being so tribal.

Or the other solution is for Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems to concentrate entirely on England*, drive Scots into the Arms of the SNP, break up the UK, and then everyone will be happy. Apart from everyone who isn't. That seems to be what they're trying now.

If the SNP will not vote a Labour government out, Labour don't need to consult the SNP to govern as they know they won't vote again them.

They will if they want to get anything done. The only way a minority Labour government can be brought down by the SNP is if the SNP votes against them in a confidence motion, or if the SNP join with the Tories to call an early election*.

Otherwise, the SNP could vote against every thing that Labour want to do, without bringing down the government. I doubt they would, they'd want to negotiate on a case-by-case basis and bring in their own amendments.

However it's simply not true under the Fixed Term Parliament Act that the SNP would have to vote with Labour all the time or risk bringing down the government.

*Even then, depends on the numbers - a call for an early election requires a 2/3rds majority.

"Opposition to the Tories is popular, acting like a Tory-lite isn't".

Tony/NL seemed to do quite well out of it

Well bring back Tony then - and Labour will win another landslide, it's a certainty !

You crack me up sometimes Z-11, the way you deliberately miss the point 🙂