None taken tj 🙂 I've had a few scoops myself and this thread has stirred a few old ghosts.
Just to add, as nobody’s mentioned him yet, but Cromwell did his bit to disrupt relations between Ireland and Englandas well. While on his way to Bristol to stir things up, some of his troops took some time off to destroy the village church in a little hamlet not far from me, where there’s a family grave. It took the Victorians to restore it to use. Tastefully, too, for a change. It seems sectarianism was just as rife between the English as well. Plus ça change 🤷🏼
Someone always rolls this out – and there’s no evidence for it whatsoever. Supposedly it was a very common sign and yet there are no photographs of it and no contemporary reports of it at all. It makes no sense whatsoever. There have beem black people in the UK for 400 years, and yet before Windrush they were statistically immaterial. Why would people put up signs to deter a community of black people who they had literally never seen? It would be a total anachronism.
I totally agree. IMO it is an urban myth which is used to illustrate very genuine discrimination which existed against black people.
It is claimed that signs saying no Irish, no blacks, no dogs, were placed in the windows of premises advertising rooms to rent. But it makes no sense at all because firstly the term black was never used to describe a black person.
The word used in the 50s and 60s would have been 'coloureds', although possibly occasionally negro. In the 50s if the word black was used at all it would have been considered hugely insulting, much like the n-word. It only became acceptable during the 60s when black people decided to take ownership of the term and declare they themselves were proud to be black, despite the fact that they are not of course black.
Secondly discrimination simply didn't manifest itself like that. The Irish certainly didn't suffer the level of discrimination that black people did, that's also a bit of a myth imo, but where they did it wouldn't have taken the form of notices on the windows of rentable rooms, they just would be told that the room had been taken when they applied for it.
Finally it would be the default situation that dogs would not be allowed to live in rented rooms. There would have been absolutely no reason at all to put a notice up informing people of something that they already knew.
A 'dogs welcomed' sign would be more likely, if they didn't have a problem with dogs. The 'no dogs' claim was simply added to suggest that Irish and black people were put in the same category as dogs.
Just to add to my above comment. Any prejudice against the Irish would not have been culturally, religiously, or racially, based imo, but class-based.
Irish immigrants were overwhelmingly working-class and often from rural Ireland.
"Irish navvies" were considered uncouth because of their low class status, and legendary ability to drink large quantities of alcohol.
For those reasons there might have been a reluctance to provide them with rented accommodation.
IMO it is an urban myth
I've no opinion, but a short Google throws up some reasonable suggestions that there were versions of it, even if not the same wording.
Not aimed at you ernie, but denying people's memory of racism is an odd thing to do.
‘It Was Standard To See Signs Saying, ‘No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish' | EachOther
No reason to doubt No Irish, no blacks signs | Letters
The alledged sign is an urban myth imo, certainly not the discrimination against black people which was very real indeed. As to some degree was prejudice shown towards Irish navvies.
Shit the bed.
A lot of reading, thanks all. Please don't hijack this, I wanted it to be edumacational.
Under James the 1st and the 6th this was ended (by war) and a very deliberate colonisation project started to wipe out the Irish culture there. Unlike previous colonisation efforts large areas of land were seized and towns created on them populated by English and Scots who had to be protestant in order to keep them separate from the locals.
Reading this made me think of what the Israelis' have been doing in Palestine (Gaza +the West Bank) for decades.
See also the Russians in Ukraine, Crimea and Georgia
Fascinating thread.
1994-1998 my work took me to Eire and NI. Starting in Belfast and then Dublin, Cork, Limerick, sometimes Waterford.
By the end there was no obvious transition between the countries as we’d drive along the N1. Earlier it was different.
On famine the British have some practice, one earlier example being the starving of India.
BTB did a 3-parter on the Great Hunger https://tinyurl.com/BTB-the-Irish-famine
Supposedly it was a very common sign and yet there are no photographs of it and no contemporary reports of it at all.
Yet very genuine looking pictures of such signs were featured in a work training course back in the early noughties - the history of rent control being a pretty dry subject without pictures!
On famine the British have some practice, one earlier example being the starving of India.
BTB did a 3-parter on the Great Hunger https://tinyurl.com/BTB-the-Irish-famine<br /><br />
Thomas Keneally’s Three Famines is an interesting read, drawing parallels between the Great Hunger, Bengal and Eritrea.<br /><br />
Just to add to my above comment. Any prejudice against the Irish would not have been culturally, religiously, or racially, based imo, but class-based.
As per someone’s comment on the Palestine thread, thanks for taking the time to patronise us on our experience of discrimination. Being called catholic or Irish bastards is obviously a class based comment.
As an Irish notional catholic growing up I always felt GB to be anti-Irish and anti-Catholic . Not at the level other minorities experience but always there. That may be changing now or maybe Ive changed.
For those with an interest in Irish culture, especially with a tilt towards its presence in GB the Irish Cultural Centre has numerous events
https://irishculturalcentre.co.uk/
The alledged sign is an urban myth imo, certainly not the discrimination against black people which was very real indeed. As to some degree was prejudice shown towards Irish navvies
I'd ask my grandad if he was lying, but he's passed. My mam is suffering with dementia and she brings out the stories all the time, and about how people would bang on their door and tell them to **** off back to Ireland (whist crying about it). She also witnessed the signs down in London when a kid. Although she wasn't obviously Irish (no accent) she even got agro for her surname and wearing a crucifix. I guess she's lying too?
After my mum finished her first year at uni in halls, as the organised person it fell to her to find a house for her and her pals. She got a list of numbers to phone, and lettings offices to visit. Strangely, every single property has just been let shortly before she called. After a couple of weeks of this, she got one of the english pals to do the visits / calls. The previously let properties were magically available again. This would have been the late 1970s in North London.
Any prejudice against the Irish would not have been culturally, religiously, or racially, based imo, but class-based.
I don't think either the Guildford Four or the Birmingham Six were arrested and falsely charged and imprisoned becasue of their class.
On famine the British have some practice, one earlier example being the starving of India.
Below is a link to a good letter on The Famine. Ireland’s population has never returned to its pre-famine levels. Strange how effectively genocide so close to home never gets taught in British schools.
Strange how effectively genocide so close to home never gets taught in British schools.
There's huge amounts of British colonialization that's still to be reckoned with, and the education that children receive these days is much more nuanced than it was in my time, when one of my primary school teachers repeated the "quarter of the world was pink" line while pointing to a map, My wife's Canadian, and born in the mid seventies, and she can remember singing God Save The Queen at school on the Queen's birthday.
Some good reading here. Thoughtful posts, personal experience shared and signposting to credible sources for those wanting to know more. Dakuan's potted history and poignant personal slant was the stand out for me.
I'm peased also to see that people have been respectful and measured in their comments. It's a raw, emotive subject for many I know, but I echo Cougar's plea above that we keep it that way. It would be great for this to rumble on for us all to learn from, without being wrecked like many historical or political threads do 👍
@blokeuptheroad I don't suppose you remember where had lunch with the German shepherd? Backdrop looks remarkably like in-laws farm and the dog is very like theirs too. They are based outside dungannon.
To counter some of my previous examples - family came back to farm after being in town for a bit once, to find a note on the gate. Squaddie had noticed cow in distress and helped her have a calf. Good effort.
I bought the Black 47 film on Prime and not had the stomach to watch it yet. There is a graveyard between Sneem and Kenmare where 30 people died of starvation - on one day and were massed buried. Meanwhile food was being exported out of the country.
@northshoreniall. I don't remember exactly but it wasn't near Dungannon on that occasion. It was rural Fermanagh right next to the border. The German shepherd was an Army explosive search dog and he flew there with us in a helicopter.
Cheers, remarkable resemblance both land and pup.
I wouldn’t know where to begin.
To go back to Cougar's OP, if you're looking for the modern and current reason - in the sense of the last century and a half rather than scraping back past Cromwell, Elizabeth, and all the way back to the Normans, of the conflict between Ireland as both part of the UK, and separate from it, then honestly Black 47 is as good a place as any to start, it marks a division point, not only for Ireland, but for many parts of Europe (see the 1848 revolutions)
There is a graveyard between Sneem and Kenmare where 30 people died of starvation – on one day
Where exactly is that, would like to see it.
We have the workhouse ruins outside Cahersiveen near us and the lane approaching it is still called The pauper's road.
Very close to the site of the Bahaghs massacre, for more modern sad history
https://m.independent.ie/regionals/kerry/lifestyle/prisoners-of-conscience-when-silence-spoke-loud/27379496.html
Ireland’s population has never returned to its pre-famine levels.
I only learned that recently myself - quite incredible
Where exactly is that, would like to see it.
Templenoe old cemetery. My mistake it was 40 on one day.
i wanted to know some irish history for a long time.It was never taught to us at school in the 60s and 70s, and only ever heard one side of things.Never knew any irish
I didnt find out im part irish until my late twenties
Were some Irish were sold as slaves,in the west indies? I read about it once
There was a slave trade raid on Baltimore in Cork in 1631 which is quite famous.
https://www.historyireland.com/from-baltimore-to-barbary-the-1631-sack-of-baltimore/
Were some Irish were sold as slaves,in the west indies? I read about it once
There was extensive use of penal transportation including for the prisoners of war during the civil war.
I think most would consider it effectively slavery and for several of the locations were people were sent effectively a death sentence pre anti malarial and other medical treatments.
There was extensive use of penal transportation including for the prisoners of war during the civil war.
The civil war took place in the nineteen twenties with no penal transportation 😉 this is a thread about Irish history
The civil war took place in the nineteen twenties with no penal transportation 😉 this is a thread about Irish history
More than one civil war and I thought the context was clear enough. Although I should have probably used the war of the three kingdoms instead thats still not in common use and would have been equally confusing.
Ireland’s population has never returned to its pre-famine levels.
There are still the ruins of various pre-famine hamlets dotted around the landscape in Tipperary where a chunk of my family hails from. The giveaway as to what they are is the abandoned churches.
As to some degree was prejudice shown towards Irish navvies.
I was in a pub once listening to an Irish "rebel music" band (just come back from a successful tour in the US) where they were singing the various "No Irish need apply" etc songs. Rest of the people on my table were muttering "rubbish".
Which could be discounted as lazy English prejudice aside from it was a rural pub in Ireland and it was my dad and his childhood friends. All had come to England for a while with my dad staying and the rest returning after a while.
My dad worked as a spark on the building sites and says he didnt experience anything beyond lazy stereotypes but nothing more than a scouser/cockney and so on would get. He suggested one factor was even though he wasnt a big bloke a lot of the hodcarriers and plasterers assistants (the blokes who stirred massive pots of it) were also Irish and so anyone deciding to insult my dad for being Irish would likely have some brick shithouses of men inquiring if they should also feel insulted.
I guess experiences vary.
Were some Irish were sold as slaves,in the west indies? I read about it once
One has to be a bit careful with this kind of thing. The "Irish slaves" meme has been appropriated and exaggerated by (American) racists to justify a persecution complex and downplay the awfulness of African chattel slavery.
Probably impossible to get an accurate view on Irish history! I live in NI, born here in the early 70's and lived through many troubled times and worked in some difficult areas. I'm not going to detail any history but rather give a recommendation for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malachi_O%27Doherty
Malachi is a decent commentator/author/journalist, his recent books on reunification and the problems with Ireland etc are very good reading.
Ernie, you have this uncanny knack of making many things about you. Deliberate or accidental the outcome is often the same.
Granted, you're not alone in this habit but it may be why you get a fair bit of flack.
I thought the context was clear enough.
Strangely not for me 🙂 I had to google just to make sure there hadnt been any transportation in the civil war (although my grandfather who was IRA and anti treaty was interned outside his county - does that count?)
Does the war of the three kingdoms count as civil war in ireland as it just seems to be war against british invaders? (Is it thus an english affectation calling it a civil war for ireland)
@blokeuptheroad looked very different to my time there. But many similarities in those photos to those of my relatives.
My uncle was very bitter about his time there, lot of resentment towards the government and military leadership at the time. Sadly passed never having resolved that internal conflict.
I'm sure he's not alone by any stretch of the imagination.
I was in a pub once listening to an Irish “rebel music” band (just come back from a successful tour in the US) where they were singing the various “No Irish need apply” etc songs. Rest of the people on my table were muttering “rubbish”.
The "No Irish Need Apply" thing in job ads is slightly different. There is contemporaneous evidence that they did exist - at least to some degree - but in the US, and in the 19th century. And even then their notoreity may have been more due to a song at the time than due to people seeing them!
https://www.history.com/news/teen-debunks-professors-claim-that-anti-irish-signs-never-existed
In any case, that's very different to the "no blacks, no Irish, [no dogs]" signs everywhere in mid 20C UK myth, for which there is no contemporaneous evidence at all. Even the report to which the Guardian letter writer refers just has a reported memory. It's a great example of the Mandela Effect in action - it feels like it would have happened...
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-mandela-effect-4589394
Some good reading here. Thoughtful posts, personal experience shared and signposting to credible sources for those wanting to know more. Dakuan’s potted history and poignant personal slant was the stand out for me.
ty! wish I could still edit it for the spelling 😂 Very interesting to read about you being embedded in the popuation, that sounds properly crackers. I presumed everyone was in the big bases behind the big walls
As well as the bias and oversimplifications in my post, theres also an error thats worth calling out - ~25% was the depopulation during the famine, not the deaths. It was about 50/50 death / emigration. Apologies, id add it as a note in the post but the edit button has gone.
Does the war of the three kingdoms count as civil war in ireland as it just seems to be war against british invaders?
Yes, I reckon it does. I think (like most things) Its vastly more complex than "war against british invaders" Look up for instance the Confederate Association A group of Irish Catholics who supported Charles against the Parliamentarians but who petitioned the King to promote native Catholicism.
An interesting character in all this, who seems to be largely forgotten, is Charles Parnell.
In the 1880s he led the Irish Parliamentary Party in Westminster that kind of created the modern political party.
This was because Parnell feared the effect of his Irish MPs living and working in London.
He felt it was inevitable that, over time, they would adopt more Anglicised attitudes.
So to fight against this, he devised rigid rules and pledges to monitor and control their actions/voting.
This is what we now think of as the whip system.
Sinn Féin found a more effective solution with their MPs not attending Westminster.
who seems to be largely forgotten, is Charles Parnell.
@copa, well said, a fascinating character, his home life (living with a separated, but not divorced woman) was one of the founding reasons of the nationalist- Catholic split in Irish home-rule politics as the [mostly Catholic] Bishops in Ireland refused to support him when his 'scandalous' affair came to light
Sinn Féin found a more effective solution with their MPs not attending
Whilst on the "lesser" known history, Sinn Féinn also had the first female MP ever elected to Westmister.
