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McBoo - don't think you can just waltz on in and claim the role of forum idiot with a post as silly as that.
I hate to drag Obama into this cause I've got to admit, I love the guy, it makes my N.London liberal soul tingle every time I see a black guy in the Oval Office. But he's really making a pig's ear of the US economy, trying to spend his way out recession and generally following the Keynesian playbook.
Problem for him (and us) is that there is a flipside to Keynes saying that the government should spend like crazy in tough years, that when the economy is purring along you have to pay down your national debt.
Bush fought two wars and gave the top 1% a massive tax cut, Blair and Brown gave everyone in the public sector a pay rise and in the EMA started paying children to go to school.
You have to live within your means.
McBoo - don't think you can just waltz on in and claim the role of forum idiot with a post as silly as that.
Thanks for the insult. Totally called for.
You've not answered my question though. Where are you based McBoo? Frankfurt, Dussledorf or Berlin?
LOL @ Binners.
McBoo - sorry I didn't mean to be offensive... I'm more than willing to share this window that I'm licking with you 🙂
You have to live within your means
Two ways of doing that tho. Reduce spending OR increase income.
Increasing income can be done two ways too.
So stating the obvious isn't helpful 🙂
Blair and Brown gave everyone in the public sector a pay rise and in the EMA started paying children to go to school.
But don't forget, Gordon had solved "boom then bust".
Oh...
If more people had bought Hope stems and seatposts instead of Thompson we might not be in this mess...
I wonder if the 0.2% is somewhat flattered by certain sectors. Because I think many of us working for small and medium enterprises in the private sector have seen shocking reductions.
Scandinavian countries have high taxes, a higher standard of living and higher wellbeing. The cuts in the UK are all about shock doctrine to reduce the size of the state and emphasise private rather than public goods. There will be a point, however, when Tory backbenchers start getting jittery about the next election and Gideon will suddenly see the need for a bit of economic stimulus.
Buy a time machine and go back and stop Gordy selling all your gold for $250 an ounce!
Wow, Stoner, that article has some pretty loaded graphs in it. The one about 'just who is getting these jobs that are being created?':
The Labour Force Survey data suggests that foreign-born workers account for 81 per cent of the employment growth:
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That looks bad, but it's actually just growth in numbers - both you will notice are positive, and we don't know what the real numbers are from looking at that.
Really smacks of right-wing sh*t stirring, but I am only half way do the page so far.
LHS - Member
Buy a time machine and go back and stop Gordy selling all your gold for $250 an ounce!
Seriously? That old chestnut. What about all the extra money the government got (well above market expectations) when they sold the 3G licenses?
[i]If more people had bought Hope stems and seatposts instead of Thompson we might not be in this mess...[/i]
when Hope make one as nice as a Thomson
Buy a time machine and go back and stop Gordy selling all your gold for $250 an ounce!
OI! Its not Gordons fault!! He was seduced by slick advertising. Who wouldn't be?
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Oh and a bit more tax on the rich folk would help too.
I thought we were trying to encourage economic growth?
I'd like to see how much of the government expenditure is going on the cost of increasing unemployment and indeed the individual and social costs of unemployment aren't even considered.
BillMC - Member
I'd like to see how much of the government expenditure is going on the cost of increasing unemployment and indeed the individual and social costs of unemployment aren't even considered.
In the last Budget there was £194bn for social protection, and £32bn for personal social services.
Scandinavian countries have high taxes
yes - I sat opposite a Scandinavian business woman on the train once moaning about how it was borderline whether it was worth the hard work of running a business when taxes were that high.
Oh and a bit more tax on the rich folk would help too.
I thought we were trying to encourage economic growth?
Doesn't seem to be damaging growth in the German economy.
Yeah the German economy is a bit different though isn't it. They just happen to have a good line in manufacturing half of Europe's cars. Probably down to the way the businesses have been run in the past I expect.
Not something we can suddenly pick up, I feel.
Exactly, the low tax ideology is just short term politics, its far more complicated to establish long term growth, but reducing taxes for a quick fix does seem to carry long term problems.
Yeah the German economy is a bit different though isn't it. They just happen to have a good line in manufacturing half of Europe's cars. Probably down to the way the businesses have been run in the past I expect.
Goes back to the aftermath of ww2. Germany was rebuilt as a manufacturing superpower with US cash. We were broke and on strike.
Try as I might, I can't see any reason why our economy diverged so much from Germany's. Hmmmmmmmm....
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5th - when were we on strike in the aftermath of WW2?
its actually that the profits of our very profitable manufacturing were taken out of the businesses by the owners not reinvested - look at the history of the british motorcycle manufactures for the classic case.
Huge dominance in world markets, short termism by the bosses refusing to invest in new plant and or designs, other countries - mainly Japan did and thus took the market away - while lord Docker had a gold plated Rolls the bikes were being built on 1030s machines in the 1960s
Goes back to the aftermath of ww2. Germany was rebuilt as a manufacturing superpower with US cash. We were broke and on strike.
No, it go's back to the late 70's early 80's, Germany somehow managed to form a consensus between the workers and the employers/owners for greater mutual benefit.
You have to live within your means.
How many years has a government budget lived within it means ? the very basis of capitlaism is to not do this. A quick look at the economies of the G7 will show you.
Oh and a bit more tax on the rich folk would help too.
I thought we were trying to encourage economic growth?
Well if spending does not equal income and the growth of Georges masterplan did not work and the defecit has not beeen cut as much what would you cut some more? The omly alternative is to increase tax some more? If you tax some more would you tax the rich or the poor?
yes - I sat opposite a Scandinavian business woman on the train once moaning about how it was borderline whether it was worth the hard work of running a business when taxes were that high
Whilst I do like your story of the business woman with a business telling you how it was not really worth it yet still having a business I just wondered if you had anything beyond this anecdotal train experience to show this is the case in Scandanavia? Fewer business per capits? Fewer sole traders/micro business or SME? W
Goes back to the aftermath of ww2
Not convinced. We had a car industry, but the cars were crap so no-one bought them.
The question is, why? I think part of it is down to the work ethic and focus they bring to tasks. Less time worrying about who was getting what benefits and pay, and more time thinking about cars.
did anyone see mandlespawn on newsnight lastnight
was funny because every time paxo said, didnt labour **** up this hed immediately say no! but then go on to admit that they should have done xyz differently - a clever man but a massive ego
anyway he was making the point that our only hope of competing is to increase funding into science/maths/engineering education as they lead to the kind of high value pr high quality products we can reasonably expect to create, unfortunately the current government is doing its best to decimate science funding at the moment
Can somebody explain why growth is a good thing? I can't help wondering on a finite planet with finite resources, how can everyone's economy grow?
At the moment, we need growth to keep roofs over people's heads. In the long term we need economic growth without manufacturing for the reasons you suggest.
its actually that the profits of our very profitable manufacturing were taken out of the businesses by the owners not reinvested
That's because the unions would refuse to use any new equipment that would make an improvement to efficiency/quality.
molgrips - MemberGoes back to the aftermath of ww2
Not convinced. We had a car industry, but the cars were crap so no-one bought them.
Lack of investment - the bosses took all teh money 50s and 60s
The question is, why? I think part of it is down to the work ethic and focus they bring to tasks. Less time worrying about who was getting what benefits and pay, and more time thinking about cars.
This was the issue in the 70s and 80s - the workers had seen the bosses take all teh money so decided they wanted a share.
What actually was needed was investment in new plant and designs. Indeed the designs were there but the investment was not.
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I_did_dab
I dont actually think growth is a good thing for the reasons you ponder. But it wins votes so thats what the democratic world wants, thats what short term busineses, banks etc all want.
If we all lived for say 200 years, we would probably be happy with zero growth.
We can only grow at the expense of rescources and by borrowings to go up.
Its a bit like using your credit card to buy stuff that makes you happy, ignoring the fact you dont earn enough to pay off the card.
Blair and Brown gave everyone in the public sector a pay rise and in the EMA started [s]paying[/s] providing travel expenses to allow children from poorer backgrounds to [s]go to school[/s] continue onto 6th form education.
Fixed that for you. Is this your copy of the Express?
+1 what MSP said. German trade unions arent afraid of flexing their muscles and labour laws there can be hard to deal with. Somehow German business people, workers and the banks who lend to the enterprise find a way to muck together and make things work without the toys being thrown out of the cot.
Personally I think it has a lot to do with the character of the people, good eggs the Germans, (my second unfashionable statement for today) and the fact that the backbone of their economy isnt actually the big manufacturers like BMW or Siemens, its the medium to small sized manufacturers, the Mittelstand, who are often still family owned.
Exhibit A - The episode of Grand Designs where a couple in Surrey bought a pre-fab Huf Haus almost literally off the shelf in Germany, the guys arrived in their van with all the kit, knocked it together bang on schedule and waved cheerio. The British workmen they had to deal with werent quite so helpful.
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Exhibit B another episode of grand designs the german flat roofing company turned up and left leaving a leaking roof so bad that had to be ripped up.
Hah I didnt see that one. Fairynuf.
Well if spending does not equal income and the growth of Georges masterplan did not work and the defecit has not beeen cut as much what would you cut some more? The omly alternative is to increase tax some more? If you tax some more would you tax the rich or the poor?
I'd increase tax where it would actually make a significant difference to the coffers - which doesn't mean taxing the rich (doesn't mean taxing the poor either - it's not black and white).
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I_did_dab - MemberCan somebody explain why growth is a good thing? I can't help wondering on a finite planet with finite resources, how can everyone's economy grow?
Well thats a whole 'nother question. capitalism is built on continual growth. IMO a no growth society is essential - thats the dark green position but until we rearrange our economy away from capitalism then we need growth
Seriously? That old chestnut. What about all the extra money the government got (well above market expectations) when they sold the 3G licenses?
Not exactly an old chestnut is it?
He sold the gold for 6 times less than what its worth today.
I think an additional £13bn would come in handy for the UK right now!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/26/gdp-figures-economic-growth
Interesting analysis
Personally I think it has a lot to do with the character of the people, good eggs the Germans
Not entirely convinced it's simply down to general 'goodness' (as if one whole nation were better than another). I've had so much sh*t and very little help from many Germans in the last 6 months.
I think it's in the national psyche to remain focused on the task at hand though. Even at the expense of niceties like customer service or compassion...