They put mountain rescue at risk. I am quite happy with the charges
Using Culpable and reckless conduct to punish hillwalkers is ridiculous.
They're not being "punished" for hillwalking. They are being charged because during lockdown, they ignored the official guidannce to make an extended, unnecessary journey which they weren't properly prepared for and put other people at risk because they had to come out and rescue them.
They’re not being “punished” for hillwalking. They are being charged because during lockdown, they ignored the official guidannce to make an extended, unnecessary journey which they weren’t properly prepared for and put other people at risk because they had to come out and rescue them.
This.
Plenty people have made errors on the hill and had to be rescued. They haven't been charged. Plenty people have gone hillwalking or on the water at the sea without proper equipment and been rescued without being charged.
The charge is totally out of proportion to what they did.
If any of the motorbikers on the A82 last weekend had crashed more than 5 miles from home would they have been charged? Risk to the ambulance crew?
Any risk to the MRT is minimal. Goes with the territory. If they want to be risk free don't be on an MRT.
No sympathy for them.
Stirling Council posting the following on FB. Not entirely sure how to interpret other than that rule no 1 has been broken many times. Was getting very tempted to do some incognito park and ride 10 or so miles from home but this has probably put me off.
⚠️ Unfortunately, people are continuing to disregard the national guidance to #StayLocal (5 miles) for outdoor recreation and exercise.
This is putting pressure on our rural communities at an extremely challenging time, with an increase in cars and rubbish.
We will be boosting our enforcement presence and issuing tickets to cars parked illegally over the next 2 days in the following areas:
✅ #Balmaha,
✅#Callander,
✅ #Aberfoyle
✅#Stirling city centre
Any risk to the MRT is minimal. Goes with the territory. If they want to be risk free don’t be on an MRT.
Do you want to think about that statement for a bit. Now add in you having an ankle snapper 5miles from a trailhead.
They volunteer to help they don't need an extra potentially fatal complication. If they all decided to take your advice how would your 5mile walk out feel?
Entirely appropriate to charge them. This whole lockdown easing is a predictable shambles as unfortunately in this day and age the general population can’t be trusted to act appropriately. Fair enough wanting to get out and exercise or have a nice socially distanced day out, absolutely fine but when it’s an entitled scrum of litter and defecating in public places then I’m all for enforcement and solid enforcement at that. Some of the behaviour and attitudes I saw last week really did sadden me. All we can do is try and encourage the next generations to be better than that. I’m miles really from anything visitable but there’s a popular walk goes near my house and some lovely family, who I caught doing it, stashed a bag of rubbish in my garden ! I was riding up the hill to home and saw them do it so shouted at them and told them take it with them, then ended up giving it back to them. Seems they dumped it further up the road. Why ? They’d been at the park and didn’t want to carry it home, after having carries it there. Astounds me.
Any risk to the MRT is minimal. Goes with the territory. If they want to be risk free don’t be on an MRT.
I don't remember tolerance of potentially deadly communicable viruses being on the description.
I must admit, while I don't have any sympathy for the two idiots, I'm not entirely comfortable with them being charged. I wonder whether it is one of those charges designed for a bit of publicity that will then be quietly dropped. After all, we don't live in a police state so they have to have broken a law and I'm not sure what law they broke. The 5 miles is guidance so they can't be charged for that. Going into the hills unprepared and then putting others at risk when they have to rescue you is annoying, but again it's not actually against the law. Obviously Covid-19 isn't the only deadly communicable disease, so MRT do take that risk whenever they rescue someone. So it would have to be under some special emergency powers that gives the police the power to charge people based on these special circumstances. Not sure I like the sound of that either.
The 5 mile guidance was a mistake.
If taken to the letter it was so ridiculously restrictive that unless it was enforced as law people were always going to break it. Also, if taken to the letter it would have represented a tightening of restrictions rather than a loosening as the lockdown restrictions did not specify a distance. This was always going to be pretty unpalatable. I think they recognised that pretty quickly and NS watered down the 5 mile bit when questioned on it which further muddied the waters.
It also doesn't seem to have had the desired effect which was to stop people going to honeypots and has had negative effects too like giving people a stick to beat others with and making some afraid to travel at all. For example, my wife spoke to a colleague yesterday who was afraid to travel 15 miles to visit her aging mother who she hasn't seen since March.
Anyway, all this is with the benefit of hindsight and I'm still glad I live in Scotland at this point.
I think the charge is fair enough. I would say it's at least arguable that the 2 involved did not take reasonable steps to mitigate the risk to others. Even if the charge is eventually quietly dropped I think it is worth bringing the charge and publicising it to make others think more carefully about following the guidelines..
They’ve been charged with culpable and reckless conduct which is a common law crime in Scotland that you don’t have in E&W. Like a number of Scottish common law crimes it covers a wide range of circumstances. Whether this situation amounts to it remains to be seen, but I’ve not seen it used like this before.
They could've done them with their usual sticking plaster, breach of the peace. If this pair get charged and then the charges are quietly dropped, but the highlighting of the case keeps the retards aff the hills, then it's a price worth paying.
Although I’d like to see the pricks who tore down a fence by a steep drop along the River Coe to use as firewood charged.
Nobeerinthefridge - I agree with you, and suspect that’s probably what will happen.
I've not read all the details. It there maybe more to this story than excessive travel/poor equipment/inexperience? I think there would really need to be unless they're being made an example which also has issues.
maybe more to this story than excessive travel/poor equipment/inexperience
My suspicion is they got extremely arsey when questioned about what they were up to, and that's led to this rather than a stern talking to
I climb one of my local Munros, trip and fall, and have to call out MR, am I likely to be charged?
What if it's only a Corbett?
If I drive 25 miles in my car just to sit at a river and am involved in a collision that requires the emergency services, will I be charged?
I really would like to see in particular they're being accused of. It's easy to pick on this pair and ignore the thousands of folk who are driving around unnecessarily. A road block at Luss would have sent a better signal.
My suspicion is they got extremely arsey
That was my first thought too. Or maybe they were pished up? Who knows, you rarely get the full story much less the nuance on these things.
A road block at Luss would have sent a better signal.
I see they're showing repeats of Take the High Road now. Just when I thought things couldn't get worse...
I think that the charges have to be for publicity, bad news for the "carrier bag of Stella." Crew if that is a direction we are going. As for the driving bit, it is guidance; which she further watered down on the Friday.
A road block at Luss would have sent a better signal.
it would, but I kinda feel the police are stretched.
Was out on sunday for a spin, passed finnich glen (devils pulpit) outside killearn. a large police van parked where is normally loads of cars, area all taped off. down the road, lots of parked cars wherever they could fit, but another police van and officers telling people to pack up and go somewhere else. saw some officers in the field on the way to the glen too.
met a few folk I knew along the westie, saying aberfoyle was mobbed, as was mugdock. Mugdock I can understand, being 5 or so miles out of glasgow, so within guidance reach.
get home to find about 30 teenagers wandering to the nearby field, hugging, kissing, being druken. normal teenage stuff really. they were later followed by about 6 officers (not hugging or kissing....), who'd been dispersing groups hanging about the canal and down the river kelvin at the bottom of the nearby golf course.
however, the canal path is quieter now than it has been. back to normal levels of traffic, and most are distancing appropriatly, whereas before, it was 50/50 whether you'd manage to get enough space. I'd been avoiding it if I could.
it's a bit cooler now, so maybe it'll calm down a bit.
The Scottish police have made it very clear that their tactics during this pandemic is:
Engage, explain, encourage and enforce.
So the pair that have been charged most likely failed some aspect of the "engagement, explaination and encouragement".
MRT have made it clear that the mountains are open to those that are lucky enough to have them locally - and that they will rescue anyone needing assistance.
IMHO, it's unfair to expect them to rescue poorly equipped folk that have travelled a long way in the current circumstances.
Seems an odd hill to pick to climb.
Lot of what's there scotroutes.
I think you know the answer to all of them though.
The reason I'm not comfortable with this is the vagueness of the supposed crime. If it was travelling 60 miles at this time, then thousands have been guilty and ignored.
If it was being unprepared and putting other folk at risk then it opens the door to all sorts of prosecutions the next time there is so much as a poor weather warning from our increasingly hyperbolic forecasters.
MRT have made it clear that the mountains are open to those that are lucky enough to have them locally – and that they will rescue anyone needing assistance.
IMHO, it’s unfair to expect them to rescue poorly equipped folk that have travelled a long way in the current circumstances.
Local rescue for local people?
The reason I’m not comfortable with this is the vagueness of the supposed crime.
Maybe it was a combination of a number of those things (and more) that led to the charges - so would be difficult for this scenario to set a precedent. Without knowing the details though, it's difficult to comment further.
Local rescue for local people?
Essentially, yes. Under the present guidelines, you should only be in the mountains if they're local to you (circa 5 miles).
If any of the motorbikers on the A82 last weekend had crashed more than 5 miles from home would they have been charged?
Quite possibly yes.
I think that the charges have to be for publicity
Also my thought. Initially charged, then given a warning before the charges are quietly dropped.
Essentially, yes. Under the present guidelines, you should only be in the mountains if they’re local to you (circa 5 miles).
But the 5 mile thing is not law so MRT policy quite rightly remains what it has always been: that they will turn out to rescue anyone in trouble unless circumstances mean they physically can't which is increasingly unlikely as Covid cases fall. Even if it were law I suspect they would still have such a policy.
Voluntary body or not, deciding not to rescue someone based on a value judgement like where they've traveled from or their level of equipment is a very slippery slope and quite clearly not one MRT want to go down even in the current unusual circumstances.
they will turn out to rescue anyone in trouble
@spin I've never suggested that MRT wouldn't rescue anyone in trouble, and I don't know why you'd suggest I had.
They have however said that people should follow the guidelines and only head to the mountains if they're local.
But none of that speaks to why these 2 individuals have been charged.
squirrelking
Member
I don’t remember tolerance of potentially deadly communicable viruses being on the description.
But they don't mind the risk as long as you break your ankle on a hill 5 miles from home. Funnily enough the other emergency services have just got on with the job using PPE where appropriate.
If there was that high a risk to MRT or ambulance crews dealing with casualties then outdoor recreation would not have been unlocked in the first place.
From Scottish Mountain Rescue "guidance and information regarding the ongoing Covid-19 outbreak", 22 May:
Should I feel guilty if I need to call MR?
No, accidents happen, we would be concerned if you didn’t call us. We are here to help, not judge.
https://www.scottishmountainrescue.org/covid-19-information/ 2
Breaches are happening left right and centre, there isn't the manpower, will or political idiocy to charge everyone.
To charge the worst offenders so the rest maybe think about what they are doing (if so capable) seems reasonable to me.
No doubt some will see it as a Sumption style human rights issue!
Funnily enough the other emergency services have just got on with the job using PPE where appropriate.
The other emergency services ain't volunteers, did actually get this pair off the hill, and it was the polis that charged them, not MRT.
I'm going for Spins theory that they were being arsey, and also agree with cynic al.
Important to remember that the guidance isn't the law, and the laws are emergency ones which are hastily drafted without parliamentary scrutiny.
They're essentially a blunt tool about enforcing a reduction in a public health issue, not typical law and order/justice. I imagine a lot of fines etc would be overturned later (imagine people fined for doing what Cummings did) - but that isn't what's important as that is in the future, and the present is the main issue right now.
I’ve never suggested that MRT wouldn’t rescue anyone in trouble, and I don’t know why you’d suggest I had.
Well you did say "IMHO, it’s unfair to expect them to rescue poorly equipped folk that have traveled a long way in the current circumstances." Not sure what that could mean other than that you don't think they should be expected to rescue certain people.
So is proper riding back on the cards?
Lewis Buchanan thinks so, as long as the rules are followed
The DM Bins press release: http://www.dmbins.com/riders/news/phase-1-covid-19-guidance-for-mountain-bikers
However, Forestry Commission still showing the likes of Glentress marked stuff as closed
https://forestryandland.gov.scot/visit/forest-parks/tweed-valley-forest-park/glentress#bike
Confusing much???
Mega gnar off piste stuff is ok, official stuff isnt?
Off out tonight for first ride with a mate since all this started, just a wee explore of the local hills.
Happy days.
Lewis should be banged up for breaching government guidelines on missuse of the past participle...
I always think the trail centres are more dangerous than the off piste stuff because your speed is higher and your focus lower plus NY,NY and Repeat Offender are the Golfie's two easiest trails.
Is Glentress still shut?
Lewis Buchanan is pushing the boundaries if you ask me. fortunatly for many of you I am not in charge.
the key point would be "Ride well within your limits – only ride on trails that are that you have ridden before and you are very confident you will be able to ride safely and within your ability"
Is Golfie not a trail centre in all but official designation?
Is Golfie not a trail centre in all but official designation?
No.
I believe there are a couple of officially sanctioned trails now that one of the valley groups is in charge of maintaining, but there's no signposting, no official trail grading etc
It's a bunch of hand built trails on a hill
Is Glentress still shut?
According to the FC site, yes
