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If everything goes to timetable my big walk is on 🙂 Obviously my threat of a huge tantrum swayed Sturgeon
Sadly some were breaking the rules, saw some fairly large groups with no social distancing. This is when we are just coming out of the latest lockdown,
There's not been good social distancing outdoors for some time. There's an argument that despite this, infections are stable, so at least for transient interactions, are not actually a problem.
It’s less than a fortnight since Rangers fans were rightly getting stuck for gathering.
I doubt that the Meadows/Hoyrood park looked like George Square did; but like the Cummings effect, there must be a degree of **** it if they can escort thousands of people into George Sq with no sanctions, I'm not going to stop my own low risk activity.
Everybodys circumstances are different but I’m fed up of the impact on my family and we can’t just go out and do what we want to do.
Perhaps those people are just a few weeks ahead of you in terms of their frustrations and have decided to just do what they think is best for them / their family. Ever since the first lockdown the advisors have said the issue was how long you could really expect people to comply.
My wish is that the relaxation planned for 2nd April is as far as we get. That gives me 10,000sq miles to explore and keeps the trolley lickers of the central belt at a safe distance. Perthshire should be an adequate buffer zone.
As I am in the 'Perthshire buffer zone' can I overnight camp within it? Desperate to get some bike-packing in.
As I am in the ‘Perthshire buffer zone’ can I overnight camp within it? Desperate to get some bike-packing in.
I've already done a local overnight which isn't strictly allowed but isn't going to harm anyone. Is it the 2nd we change from 'stay at home' to 'stay local'? From that point I'll have no qualms about overnights within authority with all the usual discreetness/leave no trace caveats.
Perth & Kinross has borders with 8 other LAs - Highland, Aberdeenshire, Angus, Dundee City, Fife, Clackmannanshire, Stirling and Argyll & Bute. Technically you could travel 5 miles into each of them. That would be some bikepacking trip. Especially a nocturnal visit to Dundee!
Perthshire should be an adequate buffer zone.
Next week in Dunkeld:
stevenmenmuir
Free Member
I feel the same way as Matt. It may be that case numbers are not going to be that important as long as hospital numbers stay low but it feels like the rules are out the window now.
we are in the process of opening up now, the public are always going to be one or 2 steps ahead of the restrictions. better get used to it, cause we'll be well opened up come the end of april.
scotroutes
Full Member
My wish is that the relaxation planned for 2nd April is as far as we get. That gives me 10,000sq miles to explore and keeps the trolley lickers of the central belt at a safe distance. Perthshire should be an adequate buffer zone.
enjoy, cause after 26th of april it's fair game. 😆
I don't mind if we're all opened up by the 26th. My son hasn't been able to train properly for most of the last year so as long he's back in the pool by the 26th I'm fine. I'm just hoping that what happens over the next few weeks doesn't put that back further as I don't know how much longer he can handle it and I'll be sad to see everything he's worked towards for the last 8 or 9 years finish like that.
Next week in Dunkeld:
Dunkeld looks like that most weekends TBH.
Especially a nocturnal visit to Dundee!
😳
enjoy, cause after 26th of april it’s fair game
Yup - Scotroutes lawn seems like a fine place to camp
If anyone's worried that their local area will be overrun, come and ride in the pentlands, there'll be absolutely nobody there except for the drunk teenagers
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Looks like we're flat lining to me.
I guess as long as deaths and hospital admissions continue to fall, all should be well.
yeah, its interesting to show Hospital admissions, ICU admissions and death graphs in comparison. I guess each of those is in a sequential lag behind cases, but they seem to be in freefall in comparison to what looks like a flat number of cases as you suggest.
I look here btw https://public.tableau.com/profile/phs.covid.19#!/vizhome/COVID-19DailyDashboard_15960160643010/Overview
Hospital admissions still seem to be trending down, deaths too
Testing doesn't look to have increased if I'm reading that right?
@Piemonster yes, that's how I'm reading it too. Just need the politicos to realign the relationship between infection and admissions.
Loch Venechar, Forest Drive, Loch Archray all had lochshore campers back today. Motorhomes in every parking place, half packing up early to get away by 8am, half a dozen tents overlooking Archray, including a group of 5 tents and around 8 blokes.
Aye. Loads of campervans around Morlich.
It's gonna be bedlam isn't it
Yep. As I said on another thread, we were very lucky not to have a major forest fire last year. Getting lucky again this year too?
Great for some local businesses if there are folk around but we lack the infrastructure to cope with the possible influx - sites, parking, roads, litter, toilets, even shops.
Aye. Loads of campervans
We've just finished building our new campervan (sold the old one at the beginning of the summer last year) so far I've had 5 nights on the drive testing it all out.
We usually find quiet places away from the crowds to hide for the night, I'm expecting not to be able to find many quiet places this year and I'm not sure how much I'm looking forward to it.
Well if its bedlam then great. None of us has greater rights than others so I hope as many as possible get out and enjoy. If squeezing up if the worst hardship then good.
Great for some local businesses if there are folk around but we lack the infrastructure to cope with the possible influx – sites, parking, roads, litter, toilets, even shops.
I think you have to ask if that is short-sighted council though... they own plenty of land, getting a level hardcore surface and some payment meters to use for overnight parking (especially if they offer water or power plugging) seems like a simple investment - some bins and perhaps a couple of composting toilets. Don't need to be huge sites, just several spaced for half a dozen campers at a time. It would cover its operating costs and the general economic boost and reduction in problems caused by bad tourists would offset the investment.
I'm sure (at least in non-covid times) there is probably something could have been done to promote local business with toilets - either simply to increase footfall or perhaps with some sort of card/app that allows you to pay a fee to access the loo.
In fact it seems such an obvious set of solutions, I can't help wonder why they haven't set up a scheme where individual farmers/landowners/crofters can do it and the council just direct people to them, perhaps with simplified planning, maybe even a council booking/payments system. Its how I understand Campervans work on Tiree - you have to be staying in a designated spot, and the spots are operated by individual crofters who make £ in return.
Roads are not so easy to solve - at least not without big budgets. Although I think they could probably think outside the box a little there too, and improved roads help the locals too.
It’s gonna be bedlam isn’t it
Och I wouldn't worry, I had reason to be in Armadale this afternoon (for legitimate reasons) and I think the "Central Belt Trolley Lickers" don't seem to be waiting till the end of April to get it out their system... Not only were the Rangers fans trying to have their very own little George Square style party in the street (with red, white and blue smoke flares etc) but loads of people were rushing towards it to take pictures for social media!
If we want to keep the countryside sensible - all we need to do is encourage them to gather in the cities!
@poly that’s all sensible - unfortunately there are always folk who won’t pay at all if there is a no cost option to them.
These include camps of fishermen on Loch Morlich and outdoorsy folk (what a hateful term) in their T6s in the Ciste car park. ☹️
I think you have to ask if that is short-sighted council though
I don't doubt it is. However, as OTS suggests, some folk won't even pay a minimal charge even if it does bring with it some benefits (like litter bins etc).
There are plans for some hook-up in the lower Cas car park btw. Easier to install there as there is power nearby.
It does feel like the majority has decided that travel for recreation is fine now, along with meeting up in houses and gardens for Old Firm games and anything else really.
Hard to criticise, given that a slim majority have now had first vaccinations and increasing daily. I’ll be playing ball on local authority travel till late April, however maybe that’s just me ... 🤔
I’ll be playing ball on local authority travel till late April, however maybe that’s just me …
We're sticking to the travel dates - LA only in April. Thousands are ignoring it though. Warmer weather, more daylight, lockdown fatigue, it's hard to blame folk for doing so and I'm over fretting about it.
Re parking/facilities etc. Visit Scotland's Rural Tourism Infrastructure Fund has been running a few years (and offering millions in total each funding round) with the intention of dealing with a lot of these issues. It's one that local authorities have to be the applications, though they are often partnered with other organisations. Round 4 of it has just been announced.
Still needs land owner and tenent agreements or purchases, drawings, planning permissions, tenders and the rest in place which often isn't at all straight forward. Those issues have held up and stopped many projects.
I'm involved in a project with NatureScot that's just got off the ground and it's taken us over two years to get it actually going and there's still issues with SEPA and water supply connections.
You can't just chuck down a bit of gravel in a likely looking spot with the nod if the laird and have all the infrastructure at hand to connect up to. If only...
@poly that’s all sensible – unfortunately there are always folk who won’t pay at all if there is a no cost option to them.
If only there was some official body that could make traffic regulation orders preventing overnight parking outside authorised locations!
You can’t just chuck down a bit of gravel in a likely looking spot with the nod if the laird and have all the infrastructure at hand to connect up to. If only…
Seems to be exactly what Tiree did 20 yrs ago... but I know of one location on the mainland which has no facilities and is just a gravel area because the landowner decided it was better to keep them where he wanted that random - I think a neighbour did complain and the council made him get a campsite license but it was fairly painless.
If only there was some official body that could make traffic regulation orders preventing overnight parking outside authorised locations!
I agree with your sentiment, I really do.
some folk won’t even pay a minimal charge even if it does bring with it some benefits (like litter bins etc).
I’d love for there to be more places like this, they do seem to be slowly increasing. Hopefully the FC overnight trial went well and they do it again this year.
Does anyone know how it actually went?
Had the first scratter car campers of the season at the weekend in Clackmannashire. There are some nice meadows along the River Devon that are quite close to laybys. I wish they'd **** off to Stirling, Perthshire or the Highlands. We only have 60 square miles of local authority to explore, can't afford to lose 1% of that to these numpties!
If this thread is now going to become the 'I saw some people camping thread' then I fear we are in for a long summer of discontent.
It's going to happen. Other than avoiding it as best we can and reporting any poor behaviour we see there isn't a whole lot that individuals can do.
Poly, 20 years ago things were very different...
A fair point @spin.
It was just interesting to note the them all arriving back again.
The only answer has to be banning roadside camping completely. I hear the cries of " we clean up after ourselves / do not make a mess" but the pressure of numbers clearly makes roadside camping in scotland no longer sustainable.
brads
Full Member
Well if its bedlam then great. None of us has greater rights than others so I hope as many as possible get out and enjoy. If squeezing up if the worst hardship then good.
It's the littering and shitting in verges type of bedlam that I don't really welcome. Other than that crack on, everyone does indeed have the same rights, just remember rule #1 😎
The only answer has to be banning roadside camping completely.
Can't see that happening.
Another summer like last one up north and I think the pressure will be huge to do so
I think the pressure will be huge to do so
From some quarters yes, from other quarters there will be pressure against it as it is contrary to our existing access laws. Plus there's the policing of it and the fact that having spent months cooped up in cities people are going to quite rightly want get out into the countryside. And lets not forget that the majority are probably responsible. And do we just make it for one year or should this be a permanent change to our access laws?
So I can't see a blanket ban happening and I don't think it should happen. Sensible, proportionate local policing is the only thing that can be done.
I think the last straw around Fort William last year was when poorly parked cars blocked access to the cemetery in Glen Nevis. That certainly resulted in a large and probably expensive police operation for the next couple of weeks. Many people are worried that this summer could be the same or worse. Hopefully more tourist businesses and accommodation will be able to open fully to spread the number of visitors over a wider area and make the benefits of visitors more apparent.
Meantime I'll also be sticking to the travel within local authority guidelines though I might go beyond the first suitable area for exercise
Just schedule an Old Firm match every weekend. I had my local woods pretty much to myself yesterday
spin - as far as I remember roadside camping is not covered under the LRA / access laws.
Even clean campers roadside camping there are just too many people trying to do it - its unsustainable
Banning roadside camping isn't the way forward - when did it actually stop anything happening? We need to understand that this year, just like last is an exceptional year - but wont last. People can't travel abroad for holidays, many people have been financially badly hit by Covid so expensive UK hotel based holidays will not be possible, many campsites will likely already be fully booked therefore for many a long weekend "wild" camping locally will be their only holiday of the year.
Locally, to me, last year there was a big uproar with folk camping and leaving a mess all around Harlaw reservoir in the Pentlands. The place was a total bombsite. That camping will almost certainly be occurring, en mass this summer too.
Instead of vilifying them, encourage and facilitate good behaviour - stick a portaloo up and a communal bin every few hundred meters around the reservoir and empty them once a week. Employ a warden to do the rounds of an evening to keep things under control and fund it by charging for parking.
It's a very similar solution for Campervans - have existing public loos open near 24 hours with the nearest carpark having some designated campervan spaces just as they do in the top carpard @ Cairngorm and Ellenabeich. Perhaps even limited to max 1 or 2 night stays. We as a society need to encourage and provide the facilities to promote good behaviour instead of only slating the bad.
I dare say by next summer things will be closer to normal and there will be less pressure on our local green spaces.
as far as I remember roadside camping is not covered under the LRA / access laws.
I don't think the SOAC distinguishes between roadside and remote, I think the only recommendations are not close to habitation or in enclosed fields.
Poly, 20 years ago things were very different…
Were they? If anything the need was less.
The only answer has to be banning roadside camping completely. I hear the cries of ” we clean up after ourselves / do not make a mess” but the pressure of numbers clearly makes roadside camping in scotland no longer sustainable.
It does - the problem is - what constitutes roadside?
Lack of clarity on this, I think is one of the failings of the SOAC. To me its obvious that the sort of lightweight camping the LR(S)A permits is the sort where you carry all your kit on your person/bike/horse not one where you park and carry stuff 50m from the road to a nice spot in multiple trips. It would be ironic (and frankly unfair and unreasonable) if say camping within 100m of any public road was outlawed, as that will cause many genuine backpackers/bike packers issues. The solution is surely simpler - ban overnight parking except in designated areas.
If Covid has taught us anything though - its that people will interpret any rule to the maximum of their own benefit - and others will scorn at their selfishness, when they are technically compliant!
That certainly resulted in a large and probably expensive police operation for the next couple of weeks.
That's the odd thing - the police, understandably, don't really want to get involved in this stuff. It's not a great use of their resources. For some reason, councils seem reluctant to use their delegated powers around parking enforcement (same issue in small towns since Police Scotland abolished traffic wardens), yet it seems it should be quite feasible to make it at least cost-neutral - if they aren't issuing at least 1 ticket an hour they aren't in a problem area!
In many places, road traffic law applies. You shouldn't be pulling off the road onto private land without the landowners permission. That would include FLS car parks if there's no permission for overnight parking but also many places like Glen Etive. Blocking access, passing places, etc is also road traffic law.
As a society we've made an extraordinary response to the epidemic. Temporary provision of additional camping areas should be feasible without all the normal planning regs being necessary.
Sensible, proportionate local policing is the only thing that can be done.
This being a challenge. Underfunded, under-resourced, often pfficers their own, rural policing is a real challenge.
As a society we’ve made an extraordinary response to the epidemic. Temporary provision of additional camping areas should be feasible without all the normal planning regs being necessary.
This I agree with. We cannot ban our way out of this - but we can work to make things better and work with people.
We cannot ban our way out of this
Agree 100% Cannot and should not.
You could also get a lot of car campers on drink driving laws I'd imagine. Lying 10m from you car, with your keys in pocket pished out your face.
Its needs to be carrot and stick so as well as stopping roadside camping "aires" or some equivalent needs to be provided.
i would also put a levy on the camper hire companies to pay for this
Don't think a blanket ban works, unfortunately I don't think there are sufficient public toilets, in remote and rural areas for that to work. Providing portaloos is a good idea but would require someone to find the money to provide and service them. I feel an email to my councillors coming on.
Longer term a tourist tax could be used to provide just this sort of facility.
You could also get a lot of car campers on drink driving laws I’d imagine. Lying 10m from you car, with your keys in pocket pished out your face.
But why would you? There's nothing to be gained in penalising legitimate behaviour. Without a proven intent to drive I doubt any charge would stick anyway. If you can point me to just one instance of someone in a campervan/motorhome being sentenced for being over the limit whilst sitting in the back I'll reconsider.
From some quarters yes, from other quarters there will be pressure against it as it is contrary to our existing access laws. Plus there’s the policing of it and the fact that having spent months cooped up in cities people are going to quite rightly want get out into the countryside. And lets not forget that the majority are probably responsible. And do we just make it for one year or should this be a permanent change to our access laws?
So I can’t see a blanket ban happening and I don’t think it should happen. Sensible, proportionate local policing is the only thing that can be done.
The Land Reform Act grants access to non-motorised transport not to car camping. Camper vans are definitely NOT conferred any rights under the LR(S)A. There's obviously an interesting debate how far you have to walk from your car before the LR(S)A comes into play. Clearly if you have parked responsibly your right to walk starts the moment you leave the car. I'm not convinced that the intention was ever to let people walk 20 yds, pitch a tent and then walk 20 yds back to their car in the morning. But as I said a few posts ago - there is a legitimate right to camp near a road for a person who is walking/cycling and camping along the way.
You could also get a lot of car campers on drink driving laws I’d imagine. Lying 10m from you car, with your keys in pocket pished out your face.
No intention to drive is a legitimate defence (to drunk in Charge - obviously you cant be prosecuted for drunk driving unless you actually were behind the wheel), and clearly having set up a tent and looking like you are staying the night is going to undermine any claim to the contrary. Charging someone with Drink Driving is also a huge pain in the neck - you have to arrest them, take them to a main police station with the fancy breathyliser, book them into custody, etc - that's probably 2+ hours out of the day for a cop in a city, its potentially the rest of the shift in rural areas! And now you've removed one camper, from the countryside (but not actually because the vehicle will still be there, along with anyone else who was with them, and they aren't going to pack up the tent etc if they are on their own), and a cop from all the other things they could be doing.
Yep, a "minimum distance from road" rule would impact folk walking and riding using roads just as much as it would motorised users.
The issue here is not the responsible majority.
It is the dirty campers.
It is lack of facilities and provision for the numbers now expected.
It is working with both local communities and businesses to make something happen, so that our responsible visitors feel welcome and our irresponsible ones feel the weight of the law...
This influx of visitors is going to happen, we need to deal with it and resource it well enough.
My biggest concern is the rangers, police and local communities who might have to deal with unpleasant sides of dirty campers this summer.
Its not just the dirty campers Matt - its the sheer volume of camper vans. Just too many who want to roadside camp.
Ask the residents of Durness and applecross
I know locally ideas have been mooted about chemical toilet disposal points and reopening some closed public toilets which is great and will definitely help but that's not going to change the attitude to dropping litter everywhere or the way folks think it's ok to set fires and cut wood wherever they please.
It's obvious that education is what's needed but that's not going to happen overnight and I'm really not sure what can be done in the short term.
A few very visual campaigns may help but I've a feeling that the typical central belt trolley licker wouldn't read it anyway 😉
The Land Reform Act grants access to non-motorised transport not to car camping.
I've just been looking at the section on camping in the SOAC. I'd say it very definintely allows for responsible roadside camping.
@spin - really my bold:
Access rights extend to wild camping. This type of camping is lightweight, done in small numbers and only for two or three nights in any one place. You can camp in this way wherever access rights apply, but help to avoid causing problems for local people and land managers by not camping in enclosed fields of crops or farm animals and by keeping well away from buildings, roads or historic structures. Take extra care to avoid disturbing deer stalking or grouse shooting.
The Access Code notes that access rights do not apply to motor vehicles (see guidance on parking). The Code also highlights the risk of impacts due to high levels of use in particular areas:
The problem is that where someone is not behaving responsibly (using whoever's criteria that is based on) there are very few easy ways to deal with it. The E of Loch Lomond restrictions came about despite most of the cited behaviour already being illegal. The code also emphasises that even if your behaviour in isolation is responsible the cumulative effect of many people's behaviour may not be. As I said, the problem is - "responsible" is too vague.
The problem is that where someone is not behaving responsibly (using whoever’s criteria that is based on) there are very few easy ways to deal with it.
This.
Shore of Loch Tay. No phone or police radio reception.
A dozen drunk campers, line of tents, half a dozen cars and vans (one left deliberately blocking the road with the keys hidden).
This now requires a dozen police (that is a full day time shift I believe for Stirling area, so every officer needs to attend), matching number of vans for arrests and transport them to the police station 35 miles away in Stirling. Then you have to catalogue everything in the tents, just in case the claim that 'I left my new iPhone in there...' is made by every single person. Then you have to removed the tents and recover the vehicles (so 6 break low loaders). Then the landowner and rangers have to clean up the crap left behind, and this needs transporting 20 miles to Callander tip as the council removed the skips and recycling that used to be in Killin, and anyway the waste is 'commercial' as it is not attached to a house paying Council Tax.
So - 12-18 police officers, 2+ LLTNP rangers, 6+ recovery vehicles, landowner and assistant - all for likely a full day of work.
How do I know? Been there and seen it when it really kicks off.
its the sheer volume of camper vans
I do think we may see this in 2021. Not just campers, just everyone...
I have joked about filming from the A9 bridge next to our house the day we are unlocked - it will be like wacky races with a line of vans, caravans and loaded cars.
last summer I came across a caravan fully setup in a passing place with awning out, he was popular!
As I said, the problem is – “responsible” is too vague.
It is a cornerstone of our access legislation though and one of it's best features I think.
The guidance on managing camping on the SOAC pages has been updated to reflect the covid situation although I think a lot of it is pretty aspirational for example there's no suggestion of who'd pay for the provisions they suggest.
I do think 'responsible' is clear.
grantyboy
Free Member
last summer I came across a caravan fully setup in a passing place with awning out, he was popular!
This is the type of behaviour I'm on about, they probably know full well that they shouldn't, but they do it anyway. Fannies!
You could also get a lot of car campers on drink driving laws I’d imagine. Lying 10m from you car, with your keys in pocket pished out your face.
imagination is a fine thing
i mean you'd need to show intent. otherwise you could get most folk living on modern estates for being pished in their front room with the car on the drive.
It's an offence where you need to prove you weren't going to drive when unfit, not the other way around. It falls down for the same reasons as policing any other aspect of dirty camping - there are no resources to deal with it.
Bollocks
If you can point me to just one instance of someone in a campervan/motorhome being sentenced for being over the limit whilst sitting in the back I’ll reconsider.
Just published...
https://www.highland.gov.uk/news/article/13487/visitor_management_plan_agreed_for_highland
It’s an offence where you need to prove you weren’t going to drive when unfit, not the other way around. It falls down for the same reasons as policing any other aspect of dirty camping – there are no resources to deal with it.
it falls down as making no sense at all . while technically you may be hyperover imaginative on the matter.
youll have to piss a police person off pretty badly to end up in a court for that because good luck on them getting it to stick if they have lifted you while asleep in a tent near by.
I could just about believe it if it was in the back of a camper van but at the same time the flip side of many of the so called people people know who have had it happen to them have a history of being over confident when drunk 😉
i mean you’d need to show intent. otherwise you could get most folk living on modern estates for being pished in their front room with the car on the drive.
From memory, intent is inferred from being in the driving seat, or keys in ignition, or engine running, handbrake off, stuff like that.
As a diabetic I got read the riot act, "if you're hypo get out of the car, if you're in it you're in charge of it and the offence isn't driving, it's being in charge. If you can't get out, get in the back, put the keys well out of easy access, but even then be aware that you're at risk of police action"
Of course the odds of actually getting your window knocked on, let alone prosecuted, are rare but it does happen- mate of mine got done for drunk in charge when sleeping it off in the back of an estate car, though, he had a warrant out on him which had a lot to do with it
Of course the odds of actually getting your window knocked on,
My tent hasn't got a window.
We are more likely to be found in our local woods introducing Jnr to tent camping than the van though tbh. CBA fighting with the hoards and crowds that are going to descend on the Highlands. Even contemplated selling the van and capitalising on the madness.
From memory, intent is inferred from being in the driving seat, or keys in ignition, or engine running, handbrake off, stuff like that
You mean being in a tent 10m away doesn't show intent to drive under the influence. Who knew.
As a diabetic I got read the riot act, “if you’re hypo get out of the car, if you’re in it you’re in charge of it and the offence isn’t driving, it’s being in charge. If you can’t get out, get in the back, put the keys well out of easy access, but even then be aware that you’re at risk of police action”
Although in the real world I only know of one occasion where someone was hypo and unable to drive (but had managed to stop at the side of the road). The police found him (he had been reported several hours overdue). Did they prosecute? No. They went to the shop and bought him some food then brought him home. I'm pretty sure they even drove his car home for him. Partly probably just because most cops are actually fundamentally trying to be helpful/caring but probably also because they could deal with it quicker that way than reporting/prosecuting.
Didn't a guy on here get prosecuted for being drunk sleeping in the back of his car a year or two ago?