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So does that include bunkhouses where kitchen facilities are shared? Clear as mud.
Shared kitchen facilities have been out of use in bunkhouses since this started afaik, certainly were when I was trying to book one in July.
Rooms will be as per the rules.
We've booked an extra place for our bike tour with friends so we don't share accommodation.
I was really surprised how many AirBnB and guest houses are still offering rooms in shared buildings, clearly in breach of the regs.
That said, we've really struggled as a risk benefit assessment suggests it was safer for us to share self catering with one pair of trusted friends who we are spending the days cycling with. They now are at a hotel, basically isolated in a room, now having to have a meal out (around more people) when we are cooking ourselves.
I know the rules are not able to accommodate every nuance, but rules created for numpties having house parties are impacting others.
That all said, I'm still of the view that we're going to be locked down for half term and I'm not going to be going.
Youd have to be a bit dense to think going to a self catering place is any different, come oan tae ****
I'm still on a few Airbnb owners groups from when we were hosts a while back.
The noise about this isn't from people being dense, it's from a self catering industry lobby group on behalf of their members who have seen an avalanche of booking cancellations because of it.
from a self catering industry lobby group on behalf of their members who have seen an avalanche of booking cancellations because of it.
I think, in the same way anyone booking a holiday and 100% expecting it to go ahead would be a bit foolish, taking bookings and expecting them all to go ahead would be a bit daft and for the industry body to say "how can you allow all these cancellations to happen" is very naïve.
it’s from a self catering industry lobby group on behalf of their members
I heard ahead of a lobby group for bar owners in Glasgow claiming no one had done more for alcohol issues in the city than their members.
Lobby group, so it must be true.
That said, we’ve really struggled as a risk benefit assessment suggests it was safer for us to share self catering with one pair of trusted friends who we are spending the days cycling with. They now are at a hotel, basically isolated in a room, now having to have a meal out (around more people) when we are cooking ourselves.
As it's fairly obviously less risk why not just ignore the rules? The chances of getting caught or fined are basically nil.
@Gribs - it is tempting.
However, as said above it is a fortnight's time when half term starts. I am pretty sure we will be in some kind of restricted travel period for that time, and we are two trains to the start, have 7 Calmac Ferries en-route and are out on two islands. I just don't think it will be going ahead - and we have free refunds up until 24hrs before we leave.
I think, in the same way anyone booking a holiday and 100% expecting it to go ahead would be a bit foolish, taking bookings and expecting them all to go ahead would be a bit daft and for the industry body to say “how can you allow all these cancellations to happen” is very naïve.
Yup.
They have a fairly convenient scapegoat though in that the government explicitly said it was fine then 24 hours later said it wasn't, so they can moan about how the government have bungled it and grab the headlines on that basis, but the underlying feeling I see is just that they don't think the rules should apply to them regardless.
The lobbying groups are only fighting for their own interests. Some of the well paid lobbyists are only fighting for their own job. This is all pretty much what you'd expect. Government has a duty to put wider society first. To misquote Greg Lake and Pete Sinfield the government we get we deserve. I'm fairly content that the Scottish Government is doing a very tricky job as well as it can. Oh and don't worry about Christmas Boris was going to rescue it just a few days ago.
The rules changed not just to piss on the chips of one group but for everyone. The day before we were all told one thing the next day we were told something else. We've had this for a while it's not new.
How do they cope with traffic lights, bloody changing all the time.
The lobbying groups are only fighting for their own interests. Some of the well paid lobbyists are only fighting for their own job. This is all pretty much what you’d expect.
Yeah, though I'm surprised at the Airbnb hosts who are of a similar view. Seems they are just ordinary folk letting out a spare room in their flat with no need for regulations when it suits them, but require government support to keep their "business" running when it doesn't.
So... I understand that six mates from six households CAN'T go for a ride together?
British Cyclings says yes, but with social distancing, but Scot Gov says same rules indoor and outdoor e.g. only two households?
british cycling are not understanding the scots rules and the fact they are differnt
Private gardens or public outdoors spaces (from tomorrow, Wednesday 23 September 2020)
A maximum of six people from two households can meet in outdoor spaces
from the scotgov site
Yeah, thought as much TJ. The other guys still seem to be interpeting it a bit differently but I'd rather be seen to be following the rules!
if 6 people just happen to meet somewhere and do not get within 2 m is that breaking the rules? We can all pick holes, look for loopholes, creatively interpret the rules but IMO at least attempting to stick within the rules is a good idea.
Just ride the same distance as you would be from them in a pub.
As I understand it.. If it is an organised club ride, there is a Covid Officer (who has been through the training) and all other restrictions, track and trace, are applied, then it is permitted. 6 mates (from the same club or otherwise) just arranging to go for a ride is not permitted.
if 6 people just happen to meet somewhere and do not get within 2 m is that breaking the rules?
Have a word with the 200 runners who 'happened' to meet last week at Comrie run the same course, have marshalls and spectators, but no official timing, so therefore it wasn't an event. Apparently. Fools.
Was it not the Scottish hill racing champs at comrie?
Yes, but according to one Marshall it was out with all sorts of guidance... He wasn't a happy bunny.
but IMO at least attempting to stick within the rules is a good idea.
Yeah, am too lazy to try and find loopholes, and prefer to retain the right to be sanctimonious about others trying to do so 😀
I remember about a month ago when we had about 10 cases a day in Scotland. 700 today!!
Yikes..
British Cyclings says yes, but with social distancing, but Scot Gov says same rules indoor and outdoor e.g. only two households
You want to check Scottish cycling. That's the guidance that applies to you.
Fwiw despite the rules saying it can happen. Our club has taken the stance that although technically legal. Morally it is wrong to encourage it.
Clubs and groups are reminded that the restrictions on group size must be adhered outwith organised activity - a maximum of 6 people from 2 households. This applies to café stops before, during and after rides.
Scottish Cycling guidance. I read it as saying that unless it's an 'organised' ride e.g. through a club with a Covid coordinator, then 6/2 applies.
Buddies reckon it means that 6/2 only applies when we're not riding e.g. at coffee stops.
Pretty certain mine is the more logical interpretation but I can see where they are coming from...
That is correct.
Ride should be organised with a valid t+t app (we used spond for the one week) and a covid trained leader.
Have a word with the 200 runners who ‘happened’ to meet last week at Comrie run the same course, have marshalls and spectators, but no official timing, so therefore it wasn’t an event. Apparently. Fools.
I'm confused. The Scottish Hill Running Champs did take place last weekend. It didn't just happen, it was a paid entry event with specific Scottish government sanctioned (via SportScotland) covid risk management measures in place. There was timing, there were winners. What is it that you think you saw which makes people participating in an organised, event following government guidance fools? Which bits of guidance did the marshall believe were being ignored, did he raise these with the official covid officer supervising the event, and why was he still marshalling if he was that unhappy?
Pretty certain mine is the more logical interpretation but I can see where they are coming from…
I can't. Unless they have a Covid organiser and a risk assessment it's 6 people, 2 households. Including at cafe stops.
I'd also say taking part in a 200 person event is lunacy, even if it is sanctioned.
I’d also say taking part in a 200 person event is lunacy, even if it is sanctioned
Not really, hel n back hill race was the week before, staggered start, same as Scottish champs, and also really well controlled. There were probably more than 200 people on the hill I was on today, don't see much of a difference tbh, do you?.
God knows why the marshall was moaning, he must've volunteered.
Which bits of guidance did the marshall believe were being ignored, did he raise these with the official covid officer supervising the event, and why was he still marshalling if he was that unhappy?
His view (and I made the mistake of parking at his point, so endured a few minutes of complaint) was that it wasn't actually sanctioned / was informal.
If it was, that changes some things - although I personally would not have taken part in such a large event at present.
Then again, I had 10 kids out on an official youth organisation event last night, same lot again canoeing tomorrow, something I'm becoming uncomfortable with personally.
His view (and I made the mistake of parking at his point, so endured a few minutes of complaint) was that it wasn’t actually sanctioned / was informal.
The guy was talking mince, it was all organised,above board and sanctioned by Scottish Athletics.
Some races are taking place, we are at the Wooler half in November. Although that is over the border in Englandshire.
The guy was talking mince, it was all organised,above board and sanctioned by Scottish Athletics
In which case, my apologies. And I'll have a word with the Marshall if I ever endure his ear bending again. 🤔
Some races are taking place, we are at the Wooler half in November. Although that is over the border in Englandshire.
If you were doing the full marathon, you'd be about 10 metres into Scotland at some points...
If you were doing the full marathon, you’d be about 10 metres into Scotland at some points…
In all fairness the Border Reivers have ensured everybody there is 80% Scottish anyway.
So. Are we still just doing things better in Scotland?
Probably not.
Better by what measure? Seems it would be hard to be worse than the UK Govt is doing but then that's a very low bar.
Has anyone on here been "contact traced" by an establishment they have attended? We are booked (I know it might not happen) to be in a hotel in Aviemore for a weekend at the beginning of half term and my son is nervous about the increased risk being told to self isolate (due to potentioal to miss school work). I think the risk is very small but just wondering if anyone has been caught out. Is it just a risk of a staff member having a positive test or how do they work things?
imnotverygood
Are we still just doing things better in Scotland?
I think the failure to monitor our borders* and let streams of motorhomes and tourists in will undo any good work previously done.
It will be interesting to see if there's outbreaks along the route of the NC500 judging by the amount of traffic on it the other day, mental.
*eg as was done in the foot and mouth outbreak.
It will be interesting to see if there’s outbreaks along the route of the NC500 judging by the amount of traffic on it the other day, mental.
Because folk in the North of Scotland never travel anywhere else that they might be exposed to, and pick up, a virus to then transmit it when they go back home? I've been reading similar stuff all summer and yet the two local cases I know something of both involved a local person picking it up elsewhere (one down south, one abroad).
Has anyone on here been “contact traced” by an establishment they have attended?
Contact tracing is carried out by PHS, not any pub/hotel, restaurant you've visited.
In formula 1 they often talk about the letter of the rules and the spirit of the rules.
This is exactly the same.
We currently have no fence between us and the neighbours as we are fixing it.
We can have another family round in our back garden and they could do the same.
We could all ensure we stay 1m away from the fenceline and 2m between each family on each side and have a reasonable gathering. All within the letter of the rules but not the spirit I would say.
Same for going out a ride. 4 guys from different households in same street arrange to leave for a ride separately and just happen to meet on the road to the trails. We all stay 2m apart. Its not 4 households meeting up, its 2 households perchance going the same way as 2 others. Fine by the letter but not the spirit.
I don’t think we’re doing much better policy wise than the UK government, same lack of courage to shut the pubs etc. What is better is the communication and consistency from Sturgeon but that’s not exactly hard.
same lack of courage to shut the pubs etc.
I do think some of that might be due to the financial constraints of devolution but, if so. ScotGov should be making that clearer than they currently are.
I do think some of that might be due to the financial constraints of devolution but, if so. ScotGov should be making that clearer than they currently are.
Kate Forbes spelled this out on TV last week (can't remember which programme) - they would clearly prefer to close pubs etc but without the fiscal power to plug the hole that would blow in people's earnings with something similar to the furlough scheme, they feel their hands are tied.
I think the failure to monitor our borders* and let streams of motorhomes and tourists in will undo any good work previously done.
Internal borders? I seem to remember a few ultras tried that a few months back and got roundly laughed at. Round here they were wanting to set up road blocks.
We don't have the capability to do it properly so there's not a chance in hell they're going to let the local loonies do it.
they would clearly prefer to close pubs etc but without the fiscal power to plug the hole that would blow in people’s earnings with something similar to the furlough scheme, they feel their hands are tied.
Hmm.
How many people are employed in the bar industry vs all the others in the leisure sector that have been screwed over thus far? I don't think it's a concern about earnings, not for the employees at any rate.
Probably more that all the pub businesses would go under, which then causes job losses anyway
And all the others that were forced to stay shut down for months after the pubs reopened?
I can't help but think we have our priorities somewhat wrong.
A total stab in the dark (IANAP) but I would think pubs and restaurants are fairly crucial to the tourist industry.
Considering the reliance of much of the Scottish economy (and pent up demand for ‘staycation’ with foreign holidays all but banned) on tourism I’d say that must factor in somewhere... no?
Interesting to see the BBC article suggesting that the visits ban in the West has actually had quite an impact.
It makes me think about how many folk were carrying on as normal at the start of the first peak...
It makes me think about how many folk were carrying on as normal at the start of the first peak…
Not many, given that we did get down to single figure daily cases at one point. I think that's where lots of thick folk thought ' that's it by' and went on as normal.
7 deaths reported yesterday, another 3 today...
That’s not good...
7 deaths reported yesterday, another 3 today…
So in roughly the same range as daily drug deaths (1187 last year)
Well at least we don't have Dominic Cummings to contend with up here.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54379026
Ludicrous, isn't it? We're expected to vote these people into power and they can't even follow a simple instruction perceived to be of benefit to the population as a whole. It's about time a process was in place to get them chucked out of office (and I don't mean merely removing the party whip). Is that a higher standard than I expect from the rest of the population? Probably, but it comes with the job.
So in roughly the same range as daily drug deaths
What's your point caller?
It’s about time a process was in place to get them chucked out of office
Presumably the police may (should, it's pretty blatant!) prosecute and she'll be booted out? If I was her constituent I'd be mighty peed off that she'd bought it back knowingly!
What’s your point caller?
That we've pulled our economy to it's knees, spent billions on 'solutions', injured personal health and wellbeing for millions of people, yet daily we allow other deaths to occur with nary a grant to some small charity to assuage our guilt of the poor people's deaths maybe?
I agree with our lockdowns and efforts, as this pandemic would have killed far more without them. But it does put into perspective who's lives we value and how many things we just accept as 'ok'.
That we’ve pulled our economy to it’s knees, spent billions on ‘solutions’, injured personal health and wellbeing for millions of people, yet daily we allow other deaths to occur with nary a grant to some small charity to assuage our guilt of the poor people’s deaths maybe?
It's apples and oranges though. You can't compare difficult social problems like drug use with an exponentially growing pandemic.
I agree with our lockdowns and efforts, as this pandemic would have killed far more without them
There you go then.
If I was her constituent I’d be mighty peed off that she’d bought it back knowingly!
It is worse than that. Whilst suspecting she had it, she took it to London, and all the people places she encountered in between, then KNOWING she had it, did the same on her return journey. Inexcusable.
What’s your point caller?
This was my thought as well.
Two weeks ago: 0-1 death
Last week: 4 deaths (iirc)
Last two days: 10...
As I said, that’s not (looking) good...
Plus COVID deaths in last, what, 6 months ~2500.
RBS in Eastgate, Inverness is closed for 14 days as some staff have tested positive and now they are all isolating.
It is worse than that. Whilst suspecting she had it, she took it to London, and all the people places she encountered in between, then KNOWING she had it, did the same on her return journey. Inexcusable.
With that level of public stupidity and self centred action whilst in public office on her record you would hope she is unable to find a job of any capacity that requires integrity or judgment ever again. What a fool - almost makes Cummings' **** up seem reasonable.
Aye she's a dafty and my MP, canny really see how she can continue in the position. Neither can any of my mates, who are also her constituents. Think it's pretty unanimous that she should step down.
7 deaths reported yesterday, another 3 today…
So in roughly the same range as daily drug deaths (1187 last year)
Actually that 1187 number was 2018. Which was released in JUly 2019. Here we are in October 2020 and we still don't know if the drugs death crisis got better or worse last year. Crisis? What crisis?
https://www.gov.scot/news/1-187-drug-deaths-in-2018-up-27-percent-in-a-year/
Still no resignation.......what is she waiting for? Is there some financial reward for being 'sacked' as opposed to resigning? Can't think of any other viable reason (other than being a complete ****) why she hasn't.
Still no resignation…….what is she waiting for?
I worry that the way the Speaker and Sturgeon have put the boot in, she'll do more than just resign 😔
So would you locals please confirm my thinking on this, we don’t want to fall foul of any rules.
My wife and I have a self catering cottage booked in Scotland in a couple of weeks along with another couple. All of us live in England.
I understand that there is no mixing of households in Scotland currently, but all the time we are in Scotland we would be one household, made up of 2 couples?
I assume that our situation is also against the rules, despite the fact that if we had all booked a hotel instead and come into contact with lots of staff and guests, that would be fine?
Most annoying thing is the BBC new reader pronouncing ferrier (someone who works with wagon wheels) as fere-ay (a weird french sounding nonsense)
Not surprised by the behaviour because......well politicians.
I understand that there is no mixing of households in Scotland currently, but all the time we are in Scotland we would be one household, made up of 2 couples?
Not allowed I'm afraid.
I understand that there is no mixing of households in Scotland currently, but all the time we are in Scotland we would be one household, made up of 2 couples?
No you would not. You'd be two households that elected to break the rules.
I assume that our situation is also against the rules, despite the fact that if we had all booked a hotel instead and come into contact with lots of staff and guests, that would be fine?
I know it's odd but I can understand it. In a hotel you would not be allowed in each other's rooms. The only spaces you would be with the other couple would be in public space where you'd hope a bit of peer pressure and the rules of the establishment would mean you would largely get it right. In a holiday cottage without the eyes of others many many people will get it wrong much of the time, especially after a few beers. Sharing of bathrooms, sharing of kitchens etc etc. Yes, you guys might be the exception to the rule and this holiday home might be palatial with plenty space to social distance but the rules can't be that granular if they are going to work.
The other guests and staff is largely a red herring. Most infections happen from people who spend prolonged unsocially histanced time in each others company, pretty hard to get it from a fleeting brush past.
Edit - a couple of weeks and you'll be in Scottish half term - still some well informed rumours of a 2 week lock down here then so it might well be academic anyway.
We've cancelled our break as two couples staying in a two double en-suite self catering accommodation.
Yes we could have booked two hotel rooms, shared a bar with strangers, eaten with strangers in the room and had many more people come into contact with us.
Risk benefit suggests the hotel more hazardous, but the rules prevent us staying in the same style catering.
We can of course cycle for three days together, travel on calmac together, have a beer together and return to our work in schools, nurseries and hospitals the day after.
We weighed it up and we just couldn't justify it, morally and rules.
Still no resignation…….what is she waiting for? I
Someone pointed out to me that MPs employ their own office staff, so have a duty of care for them too. It's possible there is some redundancy issue being worked on.
Cheers, yep, that’s what I thought.
Never mind, we’ll swap it to self catering in England. I really do not fancy a hotel, I’d far rather trust 2 friends than rely on dozens of strangers.
Still no resignation…….what is she waiting for? Is there some financial reward for being ‘sacked’
She cant be sacked as an MP. The SNP can remove the whip which makes her no longer an SNP MP but as an independent she can carry on drawing her salary.
Like former SNP MSP Derek MacKay who left the SNP after the texting a schoolboy scandal. Still an MSP,still getting his salary, hasn't been back at Holyrood for a single day.
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/derek-mackay-still-claiming-expenses-19029390
An MP can be recalled in certain circumstances.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn05089/
Risk benefit suggests the hotel more hazardous, but the rules prevent us staying in the same style catering.
It's probably not for the reasons that Convert states - you're not in contact with them for long enough. It's the people you would have shared the self catering place with day in day out that are the bigger risk.
Doesn't mean you're wrong to get the willies about going to a hotel, though. I don't like going to bars and restaurants because almost all of them aren't putting in enough precautions for me. The only one I've been in so far that made me comfortable was The Little Chartroom in Edinburgh which had big screens between tables (that were very nice bits of furniture, it felt like they'd always been there). They are also doing takeaway, as are a few other fancy restaurants like Wedgewood that are amazing value.
[quote="Scotroutes"]
Ludicrous, isn’t it? We’re expected to vote these people into power and they can’t even follow a simple instruction perceived to be of benefit to the population as a whole. It’s about time a process was in place to get them chucked out of office (and I don’t mean merely removing the party whip). Is that a higher standard than I expect from the rest of the population? Probably, but it comes with the job.
Yup - many professions are held to a higher standard of behaviours than the general public. Politicians should be as well.
She needs to go, doesn't she? Police are now investigating her. She should probably arrange a retrospective eye test, that seems a cast iron excuse.