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Oh also, I wouldn't recommend doing what that bloke up there is doing, you'll end up with excessive amounts of water in your fuel which will cause rust. Of you only need a small amount, then Stihl or aspen is a good bet.
Yeah running a car on aspen would cost a lot!
Current car likes shell VPower 99Ron - runs smoother, tad more power, pops and bangs more on the overrun to annoy the locals (modern turbo so adjusts to either, and yes its noticeable) Are you saying that this will now become 95Ron E5? Hope not.
With my 1960 bsa ( that has never been converted to unleaded even) what do you think any issues might be. Its got modernish fuel lines so they should be OK. float in the carb is plastic and the needle rubber tipped. Might that be an issue?
The octane levels in the "protection grades" will remain as they are marketed, so don't worry about that, premium grades have a min req of 97ron, those marketed with higher will be higher!
The BSA bike, im assuming the tank is metal, some bikes have old plastic tanks and they can get very thin after a while. Again it's the rubbers you need to look at, if your lines are relatively new you're likely to be ok, just check what they are made from.
just going back to whether there's actual legislation on the fuel or labelling or whatever, apologies if this has been stated above, but what legislation / guidance is actually in place forcing any changeover?
is the only forced change that petrol stations now cannot supply old style 'E5' cooking petrol, it has to be super/premium grade E5?
in which case, given the E5 and E10 are both maximum standards, wouldn't whatever be supplied in E10 now just be whatever is cheapest, regardless of how much ethanol is present.
where is the economic encouragement to use more ethanol being driven from?
producers? other governments?
Say I believed that for environmental reasons I should be using fuel with more like 10% ethanol in, where would I be able to know I am buying this from at the pump? it could just be like the old E5 regular no?
I guess electric cars aren't mandatory but provision is being made and choice is there. at least you know its running on electricity and not "up to 10% electricity"
am I being a bit thick here?
I was complaining on another thread that my ancient lawnmower refuses to die and I therefore cannot justify getting an electric one. This is despite me never servicing it, never topping up or changing the oil and leaving it outside all year round. Maybe if I chuck in some of the new fuel and leave it I'll finally have a reason to get a new mower
@tjagain - you just may have to rebuild the carb more regularly, change fuel lines and get in the habit of not leaving any fuel in the system for long periods of it sitting idle.
There's quite a bit of chat in the whole classic world about all of this and the general consensus seems to be to use Super fuels where you can, check carb and fuel tank seals regularly and to run the system dry before storage. A few places have said they are looking to formulate a fuel specifically formulated for leaving in a system over winter, basically a litre or so that you put in. Some fuel systems don't like being sat dry as the fuel makes the gaskets swell slightly (my Mini's carb is like this) and if it goes dry it will go hard, crack and need replacing.
It will go the same way as when leaded fuel went, people will come up with solutions.
Another motorcyclist with plastic tanks here, one swelled enough for it to hit the forks on full lock (actually an mot failure but got it through) on another the paint has bubbled & the third one just gets touched by the handlebar mount & left two little marks in the tank paint. All due to ethanol in petrol & that was on E5, have now been using the super unleaded when I can. E10 definitely not getting anywhere near them ☹️
Regular grade fuels will be as they always were, but with a maximum allowable amount of Ethanol at 10%
Premium, has never been quite straight forward depending on the supplier. Premium grade was always about higher octane and better additive packages. This is still the case, but what is happening now is that the Premium grade will have a cap of 5% ethanol so that older vehicles can use it.
in both cases, its the economics of is the Ethanol cheaper, than the buyout clause of now have ethanol. For this, you need to read up on the RTFO guidance. This is basically what incentivises/penalises fuel producers to include more "bio" / sustainable components in their fuel. This has always been done on what's called a "mass balance" system, where if you could have 2 products, 1 @ 100% sustainable, the other at 0% sustainable (for this argument the ethanol is the sustainable product). You could, at the pump claim that the fuel is 50%sustainable on a mass balance, as long as you only accounted for 50% of the ethanol to sustainable elsewhere – i.e. you were not claiming credits for 100% of it, whilst claiming 50% on the actual fuel used. You can play around with the percentages all you like. But for every litre of fuel that you DO NOT have as sustainable, within the mandate* there is a penalty of 50pence per litre. Some components can be double or triple accounting – such as 2nd gen ethanol – this could be worth 2 credit points – on the open market this could be worth £1 (for arguments sake), but the material only costs you 60ppl – so you’re quids in.. There are also some development fuels (these are ones my place has helped develop), that are 100% sustainable and triple accounting, but as they are expensive the effective £1.50/L trade doesn’t quite cover the cost of the manufacturing – but it’s getting there.
You then apply that in it’s various forms, and it’s the increased buy-out that effectively forces you to use bio at the pumps. However the lower oil price goes, the less likely you will have ethanol in fuel as it trades much higher, and therefore it can be cheaper to pay the buy-out, OR buy credits to off-set the bio you haven’t used… simple hey..
*The schedule of bio is below;
Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation (RTFO) guidance: 2021 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
Obligation period Specified amount, as share of
fossil fuel, by volume
Specified amount, as
share of total fuel, by
volume 13
1 Jan 2021 - 31 Dec 2021 11.235%
1 Jan 2022 - 31 Dec 2022 11.607%
1 Jan 2023 - 31 Dec 2023 11.857%
1 Jan 2024 - 31 Dec 2024 12.107%
1 Jan 2025 - 31 Dec 2025 12.360%
1 Jan 2026 - 31 Dec 2026 12.613%
1 Jan 2027 - 31 Dec 2027 12.867%
1 Jan 2028 - 31 Dec 2028 13.122%
1 Jan 2029 - 31 Dec 2029 13.378%
1 Jan 2030 - 31 Dec 2030 13.636%
1 Jan 2031 - 31 Dec 2031 13.895%
1 Jan 2032 - 14.155%
I get all that,I think, except....E10 is Max 10% yet those shares are all greater then 10% that's leaving me confused!
@sui, do you know of ul91 or ul94 is available in the UK? My understanding ( could be wrong) is aviation Ron is a different scale to UK motoring Ron (us being different again) and ul91 is roughly super unleaded
neilnevill
Free Member
I get all that, I think, except….E10 is Max 10% yet those shares are all greater then 10% that’s leaving me confused!
yes it's a little confusing -either the supplier has other grades they are "mass balancing" elsewhere to offset the liability (this is done on your total supply of all products), or they are passing the cost on in the fuel*.
take 100Litres of fuel - If as of today you only had 8% bio/renewable, then you are in deficit of 3.23%. you would look to have to pay 50ppl on that 3.23% over the 100 litres – this works out at 1.61ppl over that 100L. Do remember though, if there are double or triple accounting components in there, then there may be no excess to pay.
Also, do remember the values above is not ethanol content – its ALL renewable/bio content, it is a separate issue from labelling at the pumps which is covered by different regulations.
neilnevill
Free Member
@sui, do you know of ul91 or ul94 is available in the UK? My understanding ( could be wrong) is aviation Ron is a different scale to UK motoring Ron (us being different again) and ul91 is roughly super unleaded
You’re sort of correct.
If referring to American labelling, UL91 and UL94 is based on AKI (antiknock) which is RON+MON/2. So a typical 95RON would be ~ 95+85/2 = 90. A super would be 98+88/2=93
However this grading is also used in aviation gasoline (there are many grades). In this instance the number is referring to the MON (Motor octane number). You have 91, 94, 100 and a few more.. So the RON in this cases is significantly higher than normal super.
The number balances of Ron and Mon (sensitivity) can vary wildly depending on how fuels are made, but for road use the Ron is the over-riding factor for compliance.
I was complaining on another thread that my ancient lawnmower refuses to die and I therefore cannot justify getting an electric one. This is despite me never servicing it, never topping up or changing the oil and leaving it outside all year round.
Sounds like my lawn mower. Always surprised when it starts straight up every spring and sure I will actually get round to checking the oil for the first time ever this winter...
If referring to American labelling, UL91 and UL94 is based on AKI (antiknock) which is RON+MON/2. So a typical 95RON would be ~ 95+85/2 = 90. A super would be 98+88/2=93
im going to partially correct myself - Whilst Amercians do use AKI, they do also use the terms UL91, 94 etc as the RON rating. US fuel is genaerlaly of a lower quality than Europe.