Despite the amount of individual events though, I hear remarkably few complaints about the judging. In each thing I've watched (only a fraction of the total I'm sure), mostly gymnastics and diving, the people who looked like the top three in each event (and according to the expert pundit on tv) won it. The judges seem incorruptible to me. Yes, there will be the odd screw up, but there are appeals processes in place. How else should these sports be scored?I mean, whaddya want? A limpics without gymnastics? Unthinkable Shirley.
It's nothing to do with the corruptibility of it - I just like my athletes to be judged by definitive measurable stuff like time, distance, weight, goals etc. Interpretation sports do nothing for me. And yes, on my telly gymnastics isn't part of the Olympics.
You know when STW gets itself into a froth when someone tweets something inflammatory and piss-taking about bikes and those of us that ride them? Yeah? Well, that's what some of you sound like when talking about dressage. Imagine trying to explain the ****ery with which UCI/IOC interferes to restrict bikes & design and competitors per country etc etc etc yawn bore to non-cyclists?
Edit: By the way, I love horses (I have even ridden them), but dressage is not a good use of a good horse IMO.
I am not going to disagree, I happen to work for a company with a LOT of horse riders, i can understand cross-country, eventing, pentathlon, tetrathlon, but dressage as a stand alone?
It's nothing to do with the corruptibility of it - I just like my athletes to be judged by definitive measurable stuff like time, distance, weight, goals etc. Interpretation sports do nothing for me. And yes, on my telly gymnastics isn't part of the Olympics.
🙂
Free your mind and the rest will follow.
Nah - there are so many hours in the day to watch the telly box. I know what I like and I like what I see.
Interpretation sports do nothing for me.
I know very, very little about gymnastics, but would recommend you try this as a taster;
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19171008 ]Cassina to Kovacs to Kolman[/url]
Astounding.
You're not a Yorkshireman are you convert? That sounds very Yorkshire to me. 😛
Surely we're all missing the point here? Jodphurs...
Hmmm, I just had a look at that O'Flashearty. Sorry, all a bit interpretative and abstract to me. 🙄
(that triple combination...my oh my oh my).
I know very, very little about gymnastics, but would recommend you try this as a taster;
Cassina to Kovacs to KolmanAstounding.
Ah, you are making the classic mistake of confusing performance and competition. I can appreciate an amazing physical performance - a bit like going to a circus. What I don't like is competition based around scoring this sort of performance judging one against another through interpretation.
I know very, very little about gymnastics, but would recommend you try this as a taster;
Cassina to Kovacs to Kolman
Astounding.
Not bad at all !
And he looks like Napolean Dynamite too, so comedy value as well 🙂
Dressage, surely the only Limpic sport with apparatus you can eat ?
Just like cycling has its different styles so does equestrianism. You could compare Dressage to Trials in biking. Not everyone can do it and it requires huge amounts of practice. To look smooth requires huge amount of skill and hours of practice.
The best dressage horse in the world Totalis isn't there as his rider is sick. Totalis is valued at over £10 million!
To coin a phrase horses for courses 😀
Perhaps that horses preceded bikes, and that dressage might be a demonstration of really mastering horsemanship.
Ah - but a lot of the sports we do now didn't exist in ancient Greece. I agree with the point, but not really sure of the relevance of whether a sport is close to the original spirit of the Olympics on that basis. Cycling certainly fits in quite well with the current Olympic spirit - or at least what most people think it should be (in reality it's all about money 👿 )
Still think dressage is boring, and it would be hard to explain why I should find it interesting (in the way I could explain the interest in a lot of cycling events), given the way they're all going round doing the same thing with no obvious objective measure of success.
You could compare Dressage to Trials in biking. Not everyone can do it and it requires huge amounts of practice. To look smooth requires huge amount of skill and hours of practice.
You could, but to the average layman only one is instantly impressive. Oh, and on that basis why isn't trials biking in the Olympics?
To look good at ballroom dancing also takes huge amounts of skill and hours of practice, and I think I'd probably actually rather watch that than dressage.
I agree with convert here too.
Too much subjectivity and art involved in dressage and not enough raw athletic talent.
I'm sure there are lots of skills involved in dressage but they don't produce objective measurable outcomes.
Just because you can compete in something doesn't mean it needs to be part of the Olympics.
What's next? Painting, debating, eating?
objective measurable outcomes
Well, thank Jeebus that we have games that look beyond that particular phrase. Would you take boxing out too?
Oh and while you're perfectly entitled to your point of view...
What's next? Painting, debating, eating?
...there's no need to be ridiculous. 🙂
newsnight raising some very good points about olympic elitism now
eg kabadi, Sepak takraw played by millions globally, require no multithousand pound horses or bikes, ignored by ioc
Sometimes sport is there for the competitors rather than a fickle audience of Johnny come latelys who watch/complain about it once every 4 years. Life would be dull if we all liked the same things, hell we would all be forced to watch football if the wants of the majority prevailed.
Can't say I understand dressage but can appreciate the skill involved. My sport of Judo doesn't always come cross well on telly either to the non initiated but I still love it. Watched the crowds pouring into Greenwich this morning for the start and the atmosphere was fantastic this afternoon according to my wife who is working there. Popular it certainly was.
Radio 5 live did make me laugh suggesting equestrianism could be argued to be the most democratic sport because it is the only Sport where men and women compete in the same event and you can still compete at 71 years of age.
Haven't got a clue about dressage. Gold medal for making a horse walk sideways? Go figure. I think they should replace it with bike-polo (as featured on the midweek videos a few weeks ago).
Too much subjectivity and art involved in dressage and not enough raw athletic talent.
I'm sure there are lots of skills involved in dressage but they don't produce objective measurable outcomes.
Actually, at this level the judging criteria is incredibly strict and they're looking for very very specific things - even down to the angle and extension of the horses' legs during certain movements - and there are seven judges around the arena, the highest and lowest scores for each movement being discarded and the remaing five averaged.
As for the cost (which I'm sure has been done before) - other half's latest horse is an ex-racer that came free (to a good home!) from the trainer, but a good allrounder can be had at £2k easily. Clothing can be on a par with cycling clothing costs. DIY livery can be had for £10-£35 a week, feed/hay/bedding/etc about £20 a week, a good old-school leather saddle can be had for £250, bridles start at £25. Competition entry starts at £10 for local riding club stuff, affiliated starts at £15.
Granted it's not the cheapest of pastimes but it's far from deserving of the elitist, rich-people-only tag that it gets lumbered with. Yes, you can spend far, far more if you want but it's not mandatory.
The difference between riding and cycling comes in that you [i]need[/i] lessons with horseriding if you want to have any chance of doing it safely and correctly. Get a jump wrong even at the lowest levels and you can be looking at serious injury, not to mention causing the horse pain by not riding it correctly.
As for Olympic dressage looking easy - that's the point... 😉 I've been riding a few years now, and I couldn't even begin to ride even one side of those horses - they're performance athletes in their own right.
dd - there were olympic medals given out for real random stuff, Pierre de Coubertin was a mentalist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_competitions_at_the_Olympic_Games
😆
Fair comment. I'd forgotten about some of the crazier times.
"Though I'm interested in why it's closer to the original spirit of the Olympics than the cycling."
Most sports originated from the practice of warfare, fencing, archery, wrestling, javelin and running to name but a few. To make the practice more interesting competitions are created to find the "best" warrior. Dressage is the refined practice of fine stepping your horse as you thunder towards your enemy with sword or lance raised as you don't want to miss on a packed battlefield. Also half stepping your horse as you approach a series of obstacles on the battlefield to time your jump. If you end up stationary on the field and unable to proceed forwards, you'll probably appreciate that horses don't do reverse very well. So the sidestep is an essential move, for those who play first person shooter computer games, the circle strafe move? So in answer to dressage being in the original spirit of the olympics, its more suited than you realise, more so than cycling. But that isn't to say its boring to watch, but knowing its background is certainly enlightening.
It's like what Crufts would be like if dogs were massive...well about the same size as a horse.
Dressage is the refined practice of fine stepping your horse as you thunder towards your enemy with sword or lance raised as you don't want to miss on a packed battlefield.
So do it whilst riding at full speed carrying a lance. That would certainly make it more interesting.
I don't have a horse or enemies.
Bloody elitist sports.
Exactly! Bring back the most favoured sport of one of our most identified monarchs Henry VIII, the Joust! I watched some of this at Leeds Armoury last year, it was amazing.
Any [i]sport[/i] that is judged, therefore subject to someones opinion, is dodgy in my book.
Faster Higher Stronger? Isn't that what it's all about.
Gymnasts, however, on the whole the routines are given a difficulty, and then there's quite a technical and accurate points marking system. So may be they can get away with it.
So do it whilst riding at full speed carrying a lance. That would certainly make it more interesting.
😆
I agree!
Exactly! Bring back the most favoured sport of one of our most identified monarchs Henry VIII, the Joust! I watched some of this at Leeds Armoury last year, it was amazing
There is actually a World Jousting Championship, which is a bit 'dolly' but there is also a full-contact championship which some of my friends take part in.
It's bloody scary and dangerous, and the cost of the armour alone will make your eyes water!
No bloody wonder riders have a scathing opinion of cyclists when this is the general attitude maintained here. It's an incredibly demanding discipline and until you've tried it properly you're not really in a position to criticise its inclusion in the Olympics or not. (And having ridden a horse does NOT count).
Me likeee, but then I have ridden 3day eventing (cross country)
Don't think it should be in as a separate event though, only part of the combined 3day eventing (show jumping,cross country,dressage) and obviously on the same horse.
Good to see folk in Joddies though.
Shame it's seen as an elitist sport when the vast majority of folk that ride are just like you and me, happy amateurs.
Don't think it should be in as a separate event though, only part of the combined 3day eventing (show jumping,cross country,dressage) and obviously on the same horse.
Do you mean same horse for the athlete on three events OR same horse for all?
They idea as someone put earlier of all on the same horse is daft.
I like the equestrian events, cross country and jumping mainly, often pop over to Bramham to watch it when its on.
Agree with all the comments stating that sports that require judges to mark them are not really sports in the Olympic sense. Yes they are excellent performances but not really true sports. Given that dressage is totally based on marking it shouldn't be classified as an olympic sport. Just got back from Canada and they were going mad for trampolining as their girl just won the gold medal. Struck me as a pretty silly sport. Could understand it if they marked it on who jumped the highest or did the most summersaults but the marking was bizarre. Ditto gymnastics. Half the girls doing the vault landed on their backsides but still managed to gain high marks. Entertaining it was but sport? Now don't get me started on the winter Olympics - they really do contain some non sports 'moguls' 'half-pipe' enough to make me go back and watch football and rugby again.
Ooooooh, hark at you lot! 😆
I bet the dressage arena didn't cost £800k, like the MTB course.
Interesting article in the latest edition of Privateer which debates the viability of MTB sports in the Olympics. Sadly it seems a lot of it boils down to visibility to viewers, which suggests equestrian events will remain popular.
I bet the dressage arena didn't cost £800k, like the MTB course.
You are damn right it didn't cost £800K - [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/london-2012-olympics-blog/2012/jul/28/london-2012-equestrian-olympics-greenwich ]some estimates reckon it cost £60 million![/url]. And there is no physical legacy for that cash. That's the whole park mind (so a bit like measuring against all the cycling facilities) but the vast majority on getting the arena sorted.
Re elitism - This is obviously an odd way to measure it but telling never the less - A friend of mine is involved with the managing of the [s]tat[/s] souvenir shops at the Olympics and runs the Greenwich site and is involved in other sites too. The average spend per visitor at Greenwich is something daft like 250% higher than locations such as Excel, swimming venue or the main stadium. Could be other mitigating factors or could be higher disposable income of those exercised to go and watch the equestrian events.
😯
Wouldn't believe anything the Grauniad writes about anything equestrian though... 😉
To those suggesting the riders should swap horses - should the cyclists swap bikes? Or all ride the same one? Same principle; you get tuned in to your ride and can perform better than on something unfamiliar that doesn't "fit".
Oh, and also bear in mind that the vast majority of professional riders don't own the horses they compete on at all as there's no way in hell they could afford them. Carl Hester does have a part share in Uthopia, but both he and Valegro are being sold now that the Olympics are over.
I love the Olympics because of the wide range of sports both judged and non-judged. The dressage tests they are riding at the Olympics require serious athletic capability from both the horse and the rider (I am married to a dressage rider).
Unsurprisingly the top horses demand the top prices. But entry into the sport of dressage does not require one of these horses.
Regarding the cost of facilities at Greenwich. The cost is massive and probably we will never know how much. A decision was made to use Greenwich no matter what. This required an amazing engineering feat of building everything (including stables) on a massive platform and trying to get that platform to behave like ground. I have been talking to the guys tasked with doing this over the last year. Quite a challenge, but Locog wanted it there no matter the cost.
I was there yesterday - the organization and delivery of the event was fantastic. The atmosphere was not as good as the Europeans at Windsor though in our opinion.
I have a great deal of admiration for anyone who climbs on to the back of some big, powerful potentially stroppy beastie, that is perfectly capable of independent thought, and then tries to get it to do stuff it may not want too.
There's a very real possibility that its not going to end well at all
I have a great deal of admiration for anyone who climbs on to the back of some big, powerful potentially stroppy beastie, that is perfectly capable of independent thought, and then tries to get it to do stuff it may not want too.
It's kinda like what you do with hora. 🙂
EDIT: That'd be without the "capable of independent thought" though.
Would you be referring to Hora Buckaroo? 😀
No bloody wonder riders have a scathing opinion of cyclists when this is the general attitude maintained here. It's an incredibly demanding discipline and until you've tried it properly you're not really in a position to criticise its inclusion in the Olympics or not. (And having ridden a horse does NOT count).
Did you get kicked by a horse this morning? Exactly what is this scathing opinion of cyclists horseriders have? If they think the time trial is boring then I'd happily acknowledge it probably is. Maybe you can explain to me why I shouldn't find watching dressage boring, despite having ridden a horse (I learnt on a horse which used to be a top level showjumper and spent plenty of time learning good horse control - though I hadn't realised I needed to set out my qualifications in order to be allowed to comment).
Just typical sport bashing,
Anyone read about Phil Leggitt saying Bmx and MTb shouldn't be in the Olympics?
Chinese criticised Team GB's dominance in cycling and how many athletes we entered, yet how many athletes do they have in badminton??
Windsurfers have got it bad.
