Just bought a down bag for the first time because it was on offer and I couldn't resist. Obviously I'd love one of these fancy hydrophobic down bags from the likes of Rab, etc. but I'm down to one kidney since 650B happened.
Nikwax do a "down proof" product. Obviously if that + average down bag = hydrophobic down we'd all be happy, so I presume it isn't. How much difference would it make though? Worth a fiver for a bottle?
Just use a bivvy bag to protect the sleeping bag, much easier than trying to wash and dry a down bag at home.
What are you using it for? If it's general camping then there's no need and if you're bivvying then as footflaps says a bivvy bag is better.
My only reason for using it would be to make getting it wet less of a disaster (I'd probably still dry bag it anyway, but belt and braces an' all that), and maybe stop it absorbing as much condensation inside a bivvy bag (or make it lose less of its insulating properties if it does).
I wouldn't assume you could just use a hydrophobic down bag in the damp with no bivvy bag, but maybe I'm missing something - are they THAT good?!
Personally I wouldn't use the down wash. Washing a down bag can be a huge pain, it's very easy to damage baffles on a wet bag, and the drying process needs to be done very carefully to avoid the down clusters clumping. A bivi bag will be fine to protect it, and even hydrophobic down will lose insulation value if properly wet.
Don't worry about getting it wet. The only way you're going to get it wet enough to affect the insulation is to drop it in a river or use it in the rain with no tent or bivvy bag. Getting it damp from condensation in a tent or bivvy bag is nothing to worry about.
People do like to exaggerate how useless down becomes when it meets a water molecule.
You're more likely to wreck it from washing it yourself in down proof than you are through getting it wet on a trip. Just use a dry bag for the stuff sack and if you use a bivi bag make sure it's a breathable one.
Yes, there is the chance I'd screw it up. Probably best to steer clear.
Anything else STW can talk me out of tonight?
650b+?
Have you got one for sale? 😀
Getting it damp from condensation in a tent or bivvy bag is nothing to worry about.
You say that, but I've woken up freezing in a VE25 tent in winter as the condensation inside had rained on my 750 ME down bag and completely soaked it!
Was a very miserable night....
Bad tent design surely. I've never had any issues with condensation affecting my bag in a tent. The only time I've ever got down bags damp enough to be cold was bivvying with no tent or bivvy bag. Once was condensation when I'd made the error of picking a spot at the bottom of a long slope and got the cold air rolling down. The other when I failed to reach a bothy in daylight and it rained overnight. This was pre LED torches when you had about an hour of battery life.
my downbag got wet in a bothy once.....
just one spot about half way down my back - made for a very cold night - it took a fair while to dry it out when i got home as the down had clumped together over about 25cm spot.....i was ontop of my neoair xtherm which was dry.
Still to this day do not know why.
I down-proofed a down jacket. It took a lot of the loft out of it. Washed it a few times in normal delicate detergent to restore it.
Bad tent design surely. I've never had any issues with condensation affecting my bag in a tent
Not really, no wind, temp dropped massively over night and moisture in the air inside the tent condensed on the inside of the flysheet and rained on my bag.
Washing a brand new bag is not a great idea. It is difficult to do without 'killing' much of the down, even harder to do well...
IME, it takes some care, but you can keep a down bag dry enough, and as long as you are not doing back to back weeks out, hanging and liberal tumble drying does revive them.
Having said that, there are also some poor tent designs around. Most moisture in tents is breath and sweat condensing - not rain leaking in. Poor ventilation, small gaps between outer and inner, extreme sloping ends etc.
just one spot about half way down my back...clumped together over about 25cm spot....Still to this day do not know why.
😉
[img]
/Tena_08_500x250_png[/img]
I've had the dew point in my down bag a number of times whilst camping (no I didn't wet myself), most often in serious shit, but sometimes just in the wet. sometimes its a trade off between battening down the hatches and letting loads of air flow thru the tent. In these conditions its usually fine for one night, but not sure I'd be up for several nights in a down bag. Don't think I've ever blamed it on the tent design tho. it's usually just an air flow issue, right? and sometimes you have to trade that off to other things.
Bad tent design surely. I've never had any issues with condensation affecting my bag in a tent
Not really, no wind, temp dropped massively over night and moisture in the air inside the tent condensed on the inside of the flysheet and rained on my bag.
I think what he's saying is that condensation on the inside of the fly should run down the fly by design rather than drip on you. Or the fly should be designed with ventilation. IIRC the VE25 is a Himalayan expedition type thing which probably doesn't have much ventilation so one would expect it to be worse in humid conditions.
Don't think I've ever blamed it on the tent design tho. it's usually just an air flow issue, right?
Which is part of tent design, as above.
I think what he's saying is that condensation on the inside of the fly should run down the fly by design rather than drip on you.
Correct. One of the functions of the inner tent is to keep the contents of the tent, and user, away from the flysheet as most tents will get some condensation inside the fly. Drips from the flysheet through the inner is a flaw. Or the tent is too small for the user and the inner gets pushed against the outer. I've got extra peg points on my tent to keep the outer well away from the inner, even in windy conditions.
Interesting thoughts, thanks all.
My plan for a while was to get a lightweight 1/2 season synthetic and a down quilt (Alpkit Cloud Cover) to give some different options in my setup, but in shopping for the synthetic bag, I found a Vango Venom 300 3 season down bag for £85, which at a tenner more than just the quilt was too good to refuse. I may supplement it with a liner or just use my down jacket.
I'll just have to see how I get on with it I suppose.
I may supplement it with a liner or just use my down jacket.
This is what I've been doing for years and often advocate on here (the down jacket, not the liner). It's not something I do when car camping, but has been my system for backpacking camping and bivi. However, I've always had fairly decent kit which packs down very small and has good warmth to weight/bulk ratio.
One of the first things with down bags is you should aim to wash it as little as possible. I wear tomorrow's dry clean base layers incl socks glove and beanie in winter, which you would have been taking anyway so no additional bulk or weight. This also keeps your bag clean for much longer. I don't use liners because I find I get knotted up in them, sometimes in the past I've had panic attacks when I've got really caught up in a liner inside a sleeping bag inside a bivi bag. Also they don't serve any other purpose really so it's just additional weight and bulk (although silk liners are light and small). The advantage of light weight down sleeping bag plus down jacket over just a warmer down sleeping bag is that you can wear the jacket around camp, cooking, even during the day on a lunch stop. It just makes the whole thing more versatile. One of the things about getting the most out of a sleeping bag is that you don't want air pockets (my sleeping bag has an elasticated lining) wearing a down jacket means you have zero air pockets in that layer which can only be a good thing. The most important bit about a good sleep is keeping your core warm, it doesn't matter too much about the peripherals IMO they'll be OK if your core is nice and warm (unless you're on Everest or something).
Going back to the beginning, Nikwax Down Proof works up to a point, it's a consumer version of the industrial treatment Nikwax applies to down for the likes of Rab and Berghaus. The difference is that you have to treat the entire bag or jacket rather than the down, which means it's not quite as effective as a factory treatment ime.
The practical answer to drying down is to stick in in a big tumble drier at a low temperature along with a few tennis balls that'll kick the down around as it dries and prevent it from clumping together. It does work.
In my experience, unless you're bivvying in typical UK conditions, it's relatively straightforward keeping a down bag dry. Make sure you transport it in a waterproof stuff-sac, avoid pouring tea or water over it in the tent, and possibly, if you have tent prone to condensation chuck a waterproof jacket over the toe of your bag where it might press agains the wall of your tent.
Hydrophobic down actually can work impressively well, but untreated down is more resilient that people think anyway. If you buy a bag with a water-resistant outer, it should be reasonably well protected too, though it'll still potentially leak at the seams.
Finally, UK conditions are damp, we get more condensation here than you do in cold, dry places because of that, but also, because damp air is better transmitter of heat than dry, temperature ratings for bags don't always hold good. I've been cold in a bag that's been fine at -30?C in the Andes, in Scotland at around -10?...
For regular bivvying use I'd go synthetic every time, or, if you're feeling rich, the PrimaLoft Down Blend stuff that hits a good midpoint between warmth to weight and damp resistance. For tent use I'd choose down unless weight and pack size and price are factors. For a mix of stuff; hydrophobic down and a bit of common sense should do it.
if you have tent prone to condensation chuck a waterproof jacket over the toe of your bag where it might press agains the wall of your tent.
If you have a big enough rucksack you can simply put your feet in it - if it doesn't compress the down too much.
For regular bivvying use
Do you get enough condensation in a bivi bag to get the bag wet?
unless you're bivvying in typical UK conditions
Unfortunately that will be one of its main jobs.
If you buy a bag with a water-resistant outer
It's not, but would it be worth considering treating the outer with a spray-on waterproofer? I realise that's going to be less effective against condensation from the inside of a bivvy bag soaking in than against, say, a bit of rain whilst setting up camp or a splash from a mug, but better than nothing?
If you have a big enough rucksack you can simply put your feet in it - if it doesn't compress the down too much.
Don't do that. YOu get really wet feet.
Or maybe it was ON the rucksack... hmm..
Do you get enough condensation in a bivi bag to get the bag wet?
It depends on the conditions and the bivi bag... like all these things. Where things get really unpleasant is trying to keep things dry in pouring rain on any sort of multi-day bivi bag trip. Great in high, cold, dry places, really quite nasty when it's bucketing down when an ultra-lightweight tent or even a simple hooped bivi are just more pleasant to use. Obviously YMMV and caves, tarps etc make things less critical...
Where things get really unpleasant is trying to keep things dry in pouring rain on any sort of multi-day bivi bag trip.
I thought standard operating procedure was tarp and bivi? I think I would want both rather than one or the other.