[Closed] Don't agree with daughter being christened

Brother Ian is that you?

I am non religion and think religion cause's a lot of problems. I was never christened as a child as my mum is the same as me - atheist

Ah, you're a bigot, and you've based that on blind faith in your mother's beliefs.

Sounds like you and religion will get on just fine.

I think you are probably objecting more to the fact it's happening against your will, rather than the principle of the event itself. It must be heartbreaking to have no control over what happens to your child, so you really have my sympathy. In this instance though, there really isn't any harm in it. You state yourself that your ex isn't interested in religion, so she won't have any views to push onto your child, therefore your child will make its own mind up, and probably won't even be aware for many, many years that the ceremony took place!

Take a deep breath, let them get on with it. You can't influence what happens, so at least save yourself from getting an ulcer over it.

Good luck 🙂

Shock horror, STW forumites with no idea of what they're debating, again!

OP, 'Christening' your child does not make them a 'Christian'. It merely reassures the believers that, in the event of infant mortality, the child's soul will ascend to heaven. It's a bit like a provisional driving licence.
As the child grows to adulthood [u]they[/u] can decide if they want to take their test, or not. This is called Confirmation.

Christenings need not be a huge happy celebration for the families involved, they can be carried out by any confirmed Christian, in private, and without witness, or even the parent's consent. Is that Daily Mailish enough for you?

In no way is your child being inducted into a cult. For most people it is merely a celebration of their child surviving the first months of life.

If you want to spoil that.......

Shock horror, STW forumites with no idea of what their debating, again!

I didn't realise that it was a subject which required specialist expertise.

I have been to several christenings, and thought I knew what they were about.

Is there a book on the subject which will help me understand more ?

Trampus - Member

"As the child grows to adulthood they can decide if they want to take their test, or not. This is called Confirmation."

That's what I did but unfortunately I failed with a minor fault for poor observation, and a major for not believing in God.

^lol

Ernie, judging from most of the posts, yes it is.
Attending a christening should make things clear, there is an 'Order of Service' usually provided.
Books? I've no idea, sorry.
I'm an atheist. 🙁

Northwind, 🙂

" I am non religion" [sic]

OK. Then you believe the ceremony is just harmless splashing of water on head and a smiles from relatives. Nothing to be concerned about.

Is there anything I can do?

Yes - teach the child that religion is a load of bunkum for the feeble-minded and teach her to be strong with good values.

Then the stupid ceremony becomes irrelevant.

teach her to be strong with good values.

Is this not the underlying message of most religions?

[i]Is this not the underlying message of most religions? [/i]

+1

Not a believer myself but teaching a child religion is bunkum and for feeble minded people is just another form of brainwashing.

If I was in the OP's shoes I would be pissed off. But thats probably part of the reason his ex is so keen! If you were still together than a non-religous naming ceremony would do everything except the weird "soul going to heaven" part - but if your not able to have a sensible discussion about that. I guess if she is "entitled" to do this without your consent then you could fight for custody in which case you would be "entitled" to prevent it? But custody battles are messy and horrible, have long term implications, and may be unsuccessful - and as this issue could polarise views this might not help!

[b]Duke:[/b] We had our twins christened recently and we are both atheist, although I would probably class myself as an aggressive agnostic and the wife insists she is just abstaining from the whole question of faith.

We did it to give them the option in the future. If they want to follow a religion so be it. Also for the mother-in-law(s) and to get our friends together to celebrate a bit.

Personally don't think it will make a difference how we bring them up.

Wallop has said what I was about to write. I've gone through separation and I can empathise that decisions made by an ex partner that exclude your own feelings can be very hard to deal with. In this case it is only a mild social ritual. No more than that.
Someone told me, when I had similar anxieties that we have to have the courage to let our children be who they want to be. At that time, it was a hard thing for me to accept as this may be for you. Hopefully you can see that your daughter will still be your daughter no matter what.

Also lol @ Northwind.

<edit>

These parties don't get held so often in some countries.

Ernie, judging from most of the posts, yes it is.
Attending a christening should make things clear, there is an 'Order of Service' usually provided.

'Order of Service'? .......that sounds suspiciously like the sort of shenanigans that heretical protestants get up to 😕

The only christenings I've ever been to were associated with the one true and universal catholic church.

And just a small point, it's a 'baptism' ....... John the Baptist (who was a catholic btw) was called "John the Baptist" not bleedin "John the Christenist".

That's the problem when you start your own religion and have a Queen as the head........ they're clueless - that's what they are.

Even Jesus Christ was baptised (by John the Baptist) How could Christ have been christened ? ....... for christ sake

Do these church officials need to have CRB checks done to let them have contact with children?

I did just for coaching Table Tennis and child molestation seems to have been endemic amongst some religious orders.

Hi! 😀

Fundamental atheism

Otherwise known as..... atheism....

My children will definitely be christened. My wife is Polish, where the Catholic Church still is a very important part of life. It's important for her, despite the fact that she isn't a practicing Catholic. As it's n non issue for me, it only bothers me that we have to go to Poland for the ceremony 😉 I am looking forward to seeing what happens. Our wedding was fun, especially my Polish vows!

I am agnostic, so find the ceremonial aspects of the church quite interesting. I wouldn't worry about your child being indoctrinated OP, especially in a country like this where religion lacks relevance. If asked about jesus' actions or whatever, my stock answer will be [i]it doesn't matter what someone else did or did not do. What matters is what you do. Treat people with dignity and respect and you'll normally receive the same in response.[/i]

Yes - teach the child that religion is a load of bunkum for the feeble-minded and teach her to be strong with good values.

Yes, teaching a child that a good percentage of the world is feeble minded is clearly the way towards a more tolerant society 🙄 What I think is that some people need to believe and some are adjusted towards it by social circumstances. If you lack respect for someone because of their religion, that says more about you tbh.

One of the best facets of all religions is their view of those who dont believe. It is the very definition of tolerance and they have never persecuted anyone who disagreed with them 🙄
Yours Kafir, gentile infedel etc

You are talking about religions Junkyard. I am talking about people. The religious people I've met have never persecuted me, in my wifes case it was quite the opposite 😀

Equally, I choose not to accept blame for the hideous actions of the British Empire, despite enjoying the spoils...

I would probably class myself as an aggressive agnostic

How on earth can you be an aggressive agnostic?

i wouldnt worry.
she wont remember/care anyway.

you COULD worry about people later on (her school) leading her up the garden path to one religion or another, but ONLY as much as they might worry about you trying to enforce her atheism.

Born again evanglical atheists, and thier deity, Richard Dawkins, are just as much trouble IMO (not that implying you are one!)

when shes old enough, educate her about all the options, and let her decide on her own.

no harm will be done by christening, and as long as its her mother money shes wasting, i wouldn't even worry about it.

my 2 nephews have been christened, i'm even a god-parent to the youngest 😯

as far as i can tell no harm came from it.

Simples. Don't go to the church, don't go to the party, ignore the whole event. Consider if daughter looks back at photos in years to come she will ask why you were not there.

Unless you're completely not involved with ex & daughter by then....

TJ - as someone born into a largely catholic family, I have to say I find your 'feeble minded' comment insulting. As many others on here have said, the ceremony itself is no big deal, and even the OP has stated that the little girl wont be brought up with religion having any real influence, so it's no big deal really, more the fact that his ex appears to be disregarding his feelings. So, then, why is religion for the feeble minded TJ? I'm no rocket scientist, admittedly, but I seem to have done ok, as has the mrs (she's recently finished her second masters degree, and the last time I checked, she hadnt managed to walk in front of any traffic or eat anything poisonous). It's boringly predictable on here, but as soon as there's any mention of religion, comments such as yours get wheeled out. Dont get me wrong, it doesnt create any real problems in my life, I just find it annoying 🙄

Fundamental atheism is as dangerous as any other fundamentalism

How does this manifest itself and dependent on your answer can you identify where and how this is "dangerous"?

barnsleymitch - Member

TJ - as someone born into a largely catholic family, I have to say I find your 'feeble minded' comment insulting.

Oh FFS don't start that nonsense - this thread doesn't warrant a mega-page conclusion.

I can't believe that you want to encourage things to kick off.

Just accept that TJ has no tolerance of people with a different opinion/belief/lifestyle/whatever......and that it doesn't cause you "any real problems" although apparently you "find it annoying"...... and leave it at that.

ernie - starting off 'nonsense' was never my intention. I dislike being viewed as foolish, simple as that. People have different views, thats what makes the world go around, and just because we dont always agree, it doesnt make those views any less valid. Surely, as intelligent adults, we dont have to resort to insults, or am I just being naive?
To clarify, it's not TJ's views on religion that I disagree with, he is, of course, entitled to his opinions, as are all members of the forum, and I wouldnt attempt for one second to change that - its just the insults I dont like.

I dislike being viewed as foolish

By TJ ? A geezer on the internet who you've never met ? Why is approval from TJ so important to you ?

I couldn't give a monkeys if some punters on a bike forum think I'm "foolish". Especially when I've got a very low opinion of them.

TBH I can't believe you're that sensitive, so I'll stick to my original suggestion that you want to encourage things to kick off 💡

Deliberately provocative from me. Sorry if you took it personally Mitch

However I do believe that belief in a supernatural being is incompatable with rationality

It doesnt really matter what I say then does it ernie? I'm trying to explain things as politely as I can, as I really dont want to provoke an argument, in spite of your insistence otherwise. Entering into further debate over the issue will only reinforce your belief that I simply want to encourage things to kick off, so I'll withdraw as gracefully as I can.

You are talking about religions Junkyard. I am talking about people. The religious people I've met have never persecuted me, in my wifes case it was quite the opposite

I'm trying to explain things as politely as I can, as I really dont want to provoke an argument, in spite of your insistence otherwise.

So you have never heard of the potentially volatile mix which is created when you introduce religion into STW ?

It's all news to you is it mitch ?

yeah right

Turn up at the church, uninvited, and at the bit where the man says "Does anybody present know any good reason why.."

Am I thinking of the right one here?

Or maybe as a christening present you can send her a gift-wrapped Singletrack login.

But I didnt introduce it did I ernie? As I stated in my last post, I think it's best that I just shut up, as I'm already coming across as some kind of zealous intolerant type. Again, I was merely objecting to being labelled as a fool. TJ's already stated he was being deliberately provocative, and I can happily accept that and move on, so why do you have to continue being so bloody prickly?

Am I thinking of the right one here?

You are indeed BigJohn ........at that point the OP shouts out "IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ME !"

And then he strips off his clothes and gets into the font.

Maybe the OP could turn up uninvited riding his new SC bike with the new baby on the back.

A mildly amusing reposte/pin head dance but do you wish to deny that organised religion is intolerant of non believers ?

In my direct experience of the last few months, where I have been married in a Catholic Church, I would say they were very tolerant. Not only was I allowed to be married in the church, but the service was different just for me 🙂 I know exactly what you're saying, but here's the rub; if you see intolerance as evil, why is it ok to be intolerant of religious people?

The empire was built on values that no longer ar upheld. have the principle of religion changed over time or they somewhat written in stone?

I think that there are some changes in religion. Not enough, and I agree it's a very dangerous thing, but its followers no longer arouse contempt in me until they deserve it. I see that as a positive thing. And don't be so sure that the values of empire are gone, perhaps they've just been hidden for a decade or so and are set to return 😉

why is it ok to be intolerant of religious people?

I don't think we should be intolerant of religious people.

I simply don't believe that someone who holds an irrational belief in a supernatural being should automatically demand "respect" of that belief just because you stick the word 'religion' on it.

If you're a grown adult and believed in Santa Claus, how would you expect to be treated? You probably wouldn't expect to be abused by other grown adults, but you really shouldn't be all that surprised when people go "Santa Claus? Really? Isn't that a bit silly?"

I think that's how I feel about the religious. You believe that a "god" made the earth? In seven days? Really?

The aggressive "fundamental" atheists can be as bad as the fundamental religious types (well, aside from the fact that atheists tend not to strap bombs to each other), but I think the problem here isn't religion or a lack thereof, so much as extreme views in general.

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Veering dangerously back on topic,

Against my better judgement I agreed to be godfather for a friend's sprog. I was the obvious choice, as an atheist who doesn't like children.

I was promised that I'd not have to do anything other than nod and smile, so I was somewhat taken aback during the ceremony where I was asked to confirm my beliefs or promise my soul to god or something else equally mad. Put on the spot, I could either look like a dick and ruin the day for my friend, or lie, so I chose the latter option.

I wonder how the other atheists would have responded. Would anyone here have made a scene rather than compromise their beliefs?

As a postscript to this, I was recently asked to attend her confirmation. I declined. Should've done that first time around really.

Congrats on your wedding RichPenny!

However I do believe that belief in a supernatural being is incompatable with rationality

Yes I see where you are coming from. It's like watching a film, you permit suspension of disbelief to become involved in it. But your critical faculties still work and it doesn't turn you into a "mental" person afterwards. [unless you watch Saw II]

I looked-on at the workings of faiths on people curiously but critically for some years. And then during an episode of emotional turmoil the issue was forced. Since then I still feel like the same person, but somehow altered.

Back on topic: I'm not keen on indoctrination either, but the baby ceremony is nothing to worry about IMO. For all you know, your child might grow up to become a Buddhist or an Atheist. Choice is good.

Cheers Buzz 🙂 Going to be a father by the start of summer too. Life would be boring if it didn't change 😀

Cougar, I guess it's just in my nature to respect people regardless of their irrational beliefs. I've got plenty of my own, after all. Incidentally, after you call someone "a bit silly", do you find it easier or harder to have a civilised conversation with them? I feel I should also point out that fundamental religious types are almost exactly as likely to strap bombs to themselves as the atheists. Not quite, granted, but you get the jist 🙂

Fundamentalism of any kind soon leads to atrocities against anyone that resists the dogma. Think about Russia in the 20C and you'll soon think of atheist atrocities that demonstrate that imposing atheism by force has similar results to imposing a religion by force.