Of course it isn't. If that were true there would be constant examples of democratic governments collapsing and being replaced by dictatorships.
It could be fragile and yet no country fallen into that trap of handing power over to people who are prepared to roll back the franchise, or remove rights, or diminish the role of courts. Or, as is the case, there could be enough high profile examples of it happening in history for the populations of most countries to be aware of what could happen if they enable a wannabe autocrat, or to remove their own rights, with their votes.
California Governor Gavin Newsom said the move was fulfilling "the deranged fantasy of a dictatorial president".
Sounds like a perfectly reasonable assessment to me, yes of course Trump is behaving like a dictatorial president. Are we witnessing the overthrow of democracy in the United States and the establishment of a one man dictatorship as TJ says might "quite possibly" happen? Nah, Trump won't be US president in 4 years time.
You clearly haven't been paying attention to the news recently.
Well aren't I going to look silly if between now and 2028 Donald Trump is declared US president for life?
Book mark this page and remind me if it actually happens 💡
California Governor Gavin Newsom said the move was fulfilling "the deranged fantasy of a dictatorial president".
Sounds like a perfectly reasonable assessment to me, yes of course Trump is behaving like a dictatorial president. Are we witnessing the overthrow of democracy in the United States and the establishment of a one man dictatorship as TJ says might "quite possibly" happen? Nah, Trump won't be US president in 4 years time.
You clearly haven't been paying attention to the news recently.
Well aren't I going to look silly if between now and 2028 Donald Trump is declared US president for life?
Book mark this page and remind me if it actually happens 💡
I'm not sure where you get that idea... They are already openly talking about workarounds to secure a third term... And if that happens then it may aswell be a permenant thing... Who's to stop it?
He might be president after 2028, he might not. Putin stepped down in 2008… he kept power though, didn’t he.
Talk of “lifetime” is pretty pointless though, there would be little need. 4 more years in the White House (whatever his title) would be more than enough for him to reshape the USA (and the world) before he dies.
If that were true there would be constant examples of democratic governments collapsing and being replaced by dictatorships.
Which indeed is the case bearing in how new democracy (in the form we would understand it) is.
Being lazy a quick look at wiki showing the dictatorships since WWI shows constant examples and its worth noting that whilst there was a trend towards democracy this has been on the backslide in recent years.
Putin stepped down in 2008… he kept power though, didn’t he.
Excellent whataboutery!
Russia is a completely different country to the United States, are you suggesting that Donald Trump might become Prime Minister in 2028 as Putin did in 2008?
If we are going to throw in random world leaders to back up the claim that Trump could become dictator of America how about Kim Jong Un of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea? Apparently that's a democracy and look at the dictatorial powers he has!
Being lazy a quick look at wiki showing the dictatorships since WWI shows constant examples...
Yes and the obvious example in your link is Nazi Germany. We have already discussed the possibility of Donald Trump introducing an Enabling Act as Adolf Hitler did to abolish elections and declare himself leader for life.
Personally I don't think that the numbers in Congress add up to back Trump's bid to become an all-powerful dictator, but since I have made that point I have been assured that Trump can just ignore Congress.
So it is going to be even easier for Donald Trump to become dictator than it was for Adolf Hitler! That apparently is how fragile US democracy is.
Are you for real? I mean, seriously? Or do you use software to generate these looping thread filling arguments?
Are you for real? I mean, seriously?
No of course I'm not for real, I totally agree with you that Donald Trump could possibly become dictator of America because Putin proves that point. As does the fact that Hitler became dictator of Germany.
I was just needlessly arguing.
Carry on.....
Every one of your points claims that someone else has made a claim that they have not.
If you think that maybe read the thread then? All the claims I have referred to have been made, including that American democracy is "fragile", that Donald Trump could "quite possibly" become dictator of America, and your claim that Putin somehow proves that point.
But of course we are back to personal attacks from you and accusations of "trolling" because I dare to challenge some of the ridiculous hyperbole expressed on political threads. And you can't think of anything else to say
If you are that convinced that I am trolling then the obvious response would be to ignore me.
That point was that a third term as president isn’t the only way to remain in power, and that being declared “President for life” (your straw man) isn’t the only mark of a dictator. Putin has never made that change to the Russian constitution, for example.
Your recent posts do this… pretend to be replying to another poster… make some other over simplified claim of your own and hope to pull them back in to argue around your point. Not sure why. Strong Colin Robinson vibes.
I understood that reference, haha
Your recent posts do this… pretend to be replying to another poster… make some other over simplified claim of your own and hope to pull them back in to argue around your point. Not sure why. Strong Colin Robinson vibes.
I understood that reference, haha
Talk about sucking/draining the lifeblood of the thread...jeez!
😉
That point was that a third term as president isn’t the only way to remain in power, and that being declared “President for life” (your straw man) isn’t the only mark of a dictator. Putin has never made that change to the Russian constitution, for example.
"President for life" is not my straw man, this is the exact quote from TJ :
That of course is his aim. To suspend the rule of law and set up a dictatorship at least "president for life" for him
I still have no idea how Putin using the Russian constitution to his advantage is in anyway relevant the current situation in the United States, a completely different country.
Yes
By yes what do you mean? Are you agreeing that there is, in fact, plenty of cases of democracies falling to dictatorships?
and the obvious example in your link is Nazi Germany
Not really, no.
I would rate better examples as Venezuela or Hungary. Both of which are fine examples of careful and systematic dismantlement of safeguards. Poland is a good example where they managed to (hopefully) stop the dismantlement and hence retain democracy.
but since I have made that point I have been assured that Trump can just ignore Congress.
Apart from, of course, no one is making such a simplistic argument. As per all the examples given to you of how enough of congress has been coopted.
By yes what do you mean?
By yes I mean that I agree there are plenty of examples of dictatorships which have been established since WW1, it does after all represent over a hundred years of global history.
Do I therefore agree that Western democracy is "fragile" as suggested? No not at all, and I believe that US democracy and system of government is quite robust. It isn't going to fall any time soon imo and if it were to I can't imagine that it would be bloodless and avoid civil war.
What the current situation has highlighted though is just how deeply flawed the American model of democracy is. Donald Trump's extensive use and abuse of Presidential powers has paraded that fact before the entire world, which isn't a great look for a country that likes to preach the value of democracy to everyone.
So I would have thought that after Trump it will be likely that at some point changes will be made to limit and better define presidential powers, in much the same way as that the 22nd amendment was introduced after Roosevelt.
As per all the examples given to you of how enough of congress has been coopted.
Well if no one is suggesting that Trump can ignore Congress then fair enough, I thought that was the primary reason given for his use of emergency powers? I am not sure what you mean by saying that enough of Congress has been coopted though, his Big Beautiful Bill was only passed by 1 vote in the House of Representatives and it looks likely that it might not make it through the Senate.
I think it's only in hindsight that we shall really be able to classify Trump.
In the meantime it's just best to assume he is bad for America, democracy and the world in general and go from there.
My hope is that Trump will turn out to be a failed wannabe dictator but that's me imposing a desire, not suggesting a fact.
None of us know for sure what Trump is (in a multitude of ways), im not sure he knows half the time!😁
Where do you get the energy from to keep on top of all these threads?
If by "all these threads" (assuming that comment is aimed at me) you mean this thread and the comment I made this morning on the "bananas make me feel funny" thread dunno, I just seem to have boundless energy 🙃
In the meantime it's just best to assume he is bad for America, democracy and the world in general and go from there.
I am not sure about that. I actually think that the damage Trump is doing to the United States's dominant role in the world could have long-term benefits, especially if other countries start taking positions which are more independent and less dependent on US patronage.
And don't think that US's huge influence and control of global affairs is particularly healthy.
I am not sure about that. I actually think that the damage Trump is doing to the United States's dominant role in the world could have long-term benefits, especially if other countries start taking positions which are more independent and less dependent on US patronage.
And don't think that US's huge influence and control of global affairs is particularly healthy.
I really do hope that's the case, I can't see any democracy looking at the US as it currently is and thinking, yep, that's the way we should go. However, right after typing that I realise that there are a few countries that want to copy Trumps very particular take on democracy. Even here, Reform UK seem intent on being a carbon copy of the MAGA movement.
Anyway, all that said, any forward looking democracy needs to look beyond America now. Europe, Canada etc. can never look at America the same after recent events. The US will never be the same, even after Trump has gone. We need to plot our own path and build new alliances based on shared ideals. I think that's already happening, most notably in Canada.
America is not an ideal to aspire to, it's become an cautionary warning if anything.
This video is chilling...
https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalNews/s/HU7Odbh7Kh
On his upcoming military parade...
"any protesters will be met with very big force... They hate our country..."
Definitely no wannabe dictator vibes there then 🙂
For all the legal discussions around the legality of trumps actions people are still in a super prison in another country(no court/rounded up and there for life(?) ) and the national guard have boots on the ground.
This may all unravel as the courts sort stuff out but I’m pretty sure that anyone currently affected by this would have a different take on the subtleties of whether Trumps a dictator or not.
Look at what he does or is currently being done in his name.
The President's Memorandum includes, “at locations where protests against these functions are occurring or are likely to occur based on current threat assessments and planned operations.”
In other words, not just LA.
The concluding paragraph of a legal analysis of the memorandum is here
This is truly unprecedented. Preemptive nationwide deployment of the military is the very opposite of using the military as a “last resort.” It is so wildly out of keeping with how the Insurrection Act and 10 U.S.C. § 12406 have been interpreted and applied that it should be entitled to no deference by the courts. (As my colleague Katherine Ebright has discussed in the context of the Alien Enemies Act, even the “political question doctrine”—which normally precludes judicial review of certain executive actions—has exceptions for cases in which a president acts in bad faith, makes an obvious mistake, or acts in a way manifestly unauthorized by law.) And it should raise a bright red flag for anyone concerned with the future of American democracy. https://www.justsecurity.org/114282/memorandum-national-guard-los-angeles/
on the subtleties of whether Trumps a dictator or not.
He isn't a dictator, he isn't even a successful authoritarian, but he's certainly testing the boundaries of democracy.
Like any President, Trump is free to nominate Federal Judges to the Supreme Court, Circuit and Districts, but he's still getting his orders pushed back by the Courts.
If those same orders were put to Congress then they'd likely fail there too. Congress needs to decide how long it can be by-passed
Governor of California certainly agrees he's a dictator.
https://www.youtube.com/live/0n77NFjDlBI?si=8y4zhn_-SnghHU-f
He isn't a dictator, he isn't even a successful authoritarian, but he's certainly testing the boundaries of democracy.
Hmmm if not sure about unsuccessful, the troops were out and people are still locked up in a foreign country.
It may all unravel and be reversed by the courts but these actions have happened, legal or not.
So Trump's trying to push/overstep the legal limits of his authority, got the National Guard on the streets for a local policing matter and us locking people up and deporting them without due process.
While some folk want to debate the definition/semantics of the word "dictator".
Imagine how neat the deckchairs on the Titanic could have been!
Governor of California certainly agrees he's a dictator.
What do you mean the Governor of California "agrees" he's a dictator, who else has claimed that Trump is a dictator?
And since California is currently suing Donald Trump I can't imagine that they consider him to be a dictator, I'm fairly sure that dictators aren't taken to court!
I think some people should perhaps take a few deep breaths and wind down the rhetoric 💡
Yes Donald Trump is abusing presidential powers but no the United States has not become a dictatorship and it won't become one in the next four years.
Governor of California certainly agrees he's a dictator.
What do you mean the Governor of California "agrees" he's a dictator, who else has claimed that Trump is a dictator?
And since California is currently suing Donald Trump I can't imagine that they consider him to be a dictator, I'm fairly sure that dictators aren't taken to court!
I think some people should perhaps take a few deep breaths and wind down the rhetoric 💡
Yes Donald Trump is abusing presidential powers but no the United States has not become a dictatorship and it won't become one in the next four years.
Sigh ... Listen to his words.
'Trump, like other failed dictators'.. . (that's from memory but listen to him, he's not mincing his words).
Your willful ignorance is staggering at times!
Don't panic, everybody.
Just one more lurch towards nativist-nationalist rightwing populism in the 'West' and the electoral masses will realise the error of their ways and vote for a global socialist utopia.
I'm pretty sure that when some people, including governors etc, say things like "Trump is a dictator!" they actually mean "Trump is behaving like a dictator!" and not "Trump is actually a real dictator as enshrined in law". It is, as you say, simply rhetoric. Rhetoric with warning, if you like.
And as for:
Governor of California certainly agrees he's a dictator.
I saw that to mean "agreeing with those (on this thread?) who think he's like a dictator". Not everything people say should be taken literally.
I find myself agreeing with you Ernie on most threads, but you do have a knack of putting people's backs up 😁
Angels and pins Ernie.
From Facebook:
Not everything people say should be taken literally.
Which I think is why threads keep going this way, some people take everything literally, missing the nuances that are hard to get across on a SM post.
Just one more lurch towards nativist-nationalist rightwing populism in the 'West' and the electoral masses will realise the error of their ways and vote for a global socialist utopia.
I think it is too late to address the slide to far right populism by the ballot box, the oligarch kleptocracy is too established and the power of elections diminished by their control over politics is rather neatly sidestepping elections and delivering their agenda whoever gets voted in. I don't think will be resolved without violence on the streets.
There is 1 obvious thing that any government who actually believes in democracy could do, and that is to reform political funding and remove the power of the wealthy to control the political agenda. The fact that it is not even a discussion shows that Starmer, Macron, Sholz, Merz, Biden etc are/were serving the wealthy before the citizenships of their countries.
The oligarchy have politics stitched up, and we only get to vote for the choices they present, western politics has become a card trick, where we select the card the magician presents to us.
Not everyone processes words or interactions the same way, so I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.
Whereas I'm old enough to have become very cynical.
I'm pretty sure that when some people, including governors etc, say things like "Trump is a dictator!" they actually mean "Trump is behaving like a dictator!" and not "Trump is actually a real dictator as enshrined in law".
Absolutely, which is precisely why I said on this very page the following :
California Governor Gavin Newsom said the move was fulfilling "the deranged fantasy of a dictatorial president".
Sounds like a perfectly reasonable assessment to me, yes of course Trump is behaving like a dictatorial president. Are we witnessing the overthrow of democracy in the United States and the establishment of a one man dictatorship as TJ says might "quite possibly" happen? Nah, Trump won't be US president in 4 years time.
Trump is not a dictator and there is zero chance of him becoming dictator of the United States. A point which I thought was worth making considering the direction the thread was going.
And if making that simple point winds people up and gets their "backs up", as alleged, then I guess it goes some way in explaining why STW political threads have largely become echo chambers which lack any real political diversity, not a particularly healthy situation and a sad reflection of the lack of tolerance.
Yes I know that in classic STW tradition this is supposed to be the "we all hate Trump and can call him whatever we like about him" thread but try to think of something more worthwhile to get wound up about than someone pointing out that Donald Trump isn't a dictator and will not become one.
and there is zero chance of him becoming dictator of the United States
zero chance? Its clearly his intention. ~will he pull it off? Its certainly possible
A point which I thought was worth making considering the direction the thread was going.
Why's that, then?
Of course there is not zero chance. We would all hope that democracy would kick in at some point but then that is what people in other countries thought before their country turned into a dictatorship.
Ernie
I agree with you on your second and third paragraphs, however there's a greater than "zero chance" (para 1) because there's a chance of the US becoming an authoritarian state. It's already slumped to "flawed democracy".
On Stockemer's six-step model they're possibly at step 4, but that future isn't inevitable providing someone gets their finger out
The US only has 60 years experience of democracy for all citizens and still has some learning to do
In the last ten years a lot of 'zero chance' events have turned out to be non-zero...
zero chance? Its clearly his intention. ~will he pull it off? Its certainly possible
Yeah I know that Donald Trump appears to have metamorphosed from a clueless halfwit who stood no chance of achieving anything that he out set to achieve, into some sort of evil genius whose cunning plan could well see him establish a one man dictatorship, but no, zero chance of that happening.
Apart from the long established stability of the system of government the United States is one of the most politically polarised societies in the world, the idea that one man could become dictator/president for life without a bloody civil war is not feasible.
And no also to the suggestion that is clearly his intention. What is obvious though imo is that Trump is determined to use and abuse presidential powers as much as he possibly can so that he can do as much as he possibly can in the 3.5 years he has left as POTUS.
Of course there is not zero chance
And "I" have been accused of dancing on a pin ! 🤣
Yes zero chance as in there is zero chance of a military coup occurring in the UK, or the Pope declaring that he is no longer a Catholic. Zero as in "well yes, I guess that technically it could happen".
Donald Trump will not be POTUS in June 2028, which I guess is why he is in such a rush to stamp his authority and leave what he hopes will be his legacy.
Obviously I am going to look silly if Trump is still president in 2028 but I'm willing to stick my neck out on that one.
He could be vice president, or he could have a controlling role not even envisaged at all in the constitution. Plenty of ways to bend the rules, as wannabe dictators do. Or he could be dead of course.
We live in hope.
It's already slumped to "flawed democracy".
Its been a pseudo democracy for a long time. Its been an authoritarian state for a good many years. Its now a rogue state and the very rule of law is under attack
