Does anyone really believe Trump has a strategy? Surely he just wakes up and does whatever comes into his head that day!
Apparently we're going to be tangoed in September. That'll be nice. In a world divided, it's always good to know who's lapdog you are.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp8k5n33y41 o" target="_blank" rel="noopener">BBC News - Trump suggests UK state visit set for September https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp8k5n33y41o
I rarely (never) feel sorry for our hereditary lord and master, but that'll be a weekend to forget for jug ears.
Does anyone really believe Trump has a strategy? Surely he just wakes up and does whatever comes into his head that day!
Nope 🙂
He operates on a whim but other people are facilitating these whims and changing the system as it suits them.
Does anyone really believe Trump has a strategy? Surely he just wakes up and does whatever comes into his head that day!
Well he clearly has an agenda, and some sort of strategy to follow that agenda, see the comments by the President of Harvard in the the Channel 4 link above for examples of that, but it is his tactics which are very much unpredictable.
Part of the problem imo is that Trump says a lot of stuff purely for effect so it is sometimes hard to know if he has changed his mind or whether he was never serious in the first place.
The other thing is that Trump is entering territory which no other US president in recent history has entered, the absurd tariffs, attacks on institutions, defiance of the legal process, etc, so until he tries something he can't be sure of its effect. For example he seems to have come unstuck in his trade war with China so that has resulted in at least some backtracking.
But it would be a mistake imo to believe that Trump and his backers/supporters are just making it up as they go along, they have a fair idea what they are doing.
There are now 2 courts finding the US government in contempt, so I suspect this is going to come to a head quite quickly. I think we are going to see quite soon if the military and the police/fbi etc are loyal to the country or to president Trump.
There are now 2 courts finding the US government in contempt, so I suspect this is going to come to a head quite quickly. I think we are going to see quite soon if the military and the police/fbi etc are loyal to the country or to president Trump.
I think there's a question over what powers the courts have to enforce their rulings. I have more faith in the military standing firm rather than law enforcement, too many with a recent memory of being sacrificed by politicians.
they have a fair idea what they are doing.
The Bond market reation proved that not to be the case. Trump attacked the biggest holders of American bonds which also have massive trade surpluses with the US and yet didn't foresee them reducing their exposure to US tresuries or realise they could be used as a weapon of retaliation. Fool. Fact is China and Japan predicatably IMO sold US tresuries and bought into countires such as Germany where the tarifs were expected to be less inflationary. Whether the selling was retaliation or just good economic management only Japan and China know but it certainly had Trump on the back foot.
Thanks. I am still none the wiser what Trump's actual policies are though.
Although to be fair I don't suppose that Trump himself is really sure what his policies will be tomorrow.
I don't buy the claim that there is a very carefully thought-out plan.
But it would be a mistake imo to believe that Trump and his backers/supporters are just making it up as they go along, they have a fair idea what they are doing.
Schrodinger's Ernie's Trump.
Fair point FlyingOx as there does seem to be an obvious contradiction between the two posts. For clarity I do believe that Trump has a clear agenda. Does anyone doubt that he has?
But I also believe that the tactics he uses (his policies) are highly unpredictable, would anyone claim otherwise?
So no I can't predict Trump's policies and I very much doubt that he can either, despite the fact that he has an obvious agenda. The at least partial backtracking on the issue of the current trade war with China is an example of that, which is why I suggested it. As I said, until Trump tries something he can't be sure of its effect, most of it has never been tried in recent times and under modern conditions.
I don't think Trump and his backers/supporters have a "carefully thought-out plan" though, yes there is certainly an element of making it up as they go along.
So yeah I clearly contradicted myself a couple of posts back when I tried to make the case that Trump's policies are not just random thoughts that come into his head but an attempt to achieve certain goals and to fulfill a specific agenda.
Apologies for the obvious contradictions between on the one hand trying to emphasis how highly unpredictable Trump is because of his constantly changing tactics/policies, and on the other hand also trying to emphasis that Trump and his backers have clear goals and a clear agenda.
I think both points are probably important though.
Schrodinger's Ernie's Trump.
TBF I think there is
1) Trumps daily made up shenanigans for constant praise and telly (and desire of being a dictator).
2) Backers/Supporters, Steve Bannon types, testing the boundaries of what can be got away with and are the sneaky fekkers.
Everyones looking at the bread and circuses(1) the prize is getting the president total control over the executive branch, over all the federal agencies.
That Supreme Court decision, could strengthen the basis of Project 2025, which is known as the unitary executive theory, which essentially says that the president has total control over the executive branch, over all the federal agencies.'...'Professor Moynihan added, Amna, that ultimately the Supreme Court decision could help any future president justify getting rid of longstanding independence of the Justice Department or other agencies that are known to be independent, that it could allow them to justify totally doing away with that.'
To add to my previous point ....... Trump's goals and agenda are not necessarily the same as his stated goals/agenda.
There is no reason believe that Trump has been completely honest with American voters.
For clarity I do believe that Trump has a clear agenda. Does anyone doubt that he has?
yeah I do, he just wants acolytes to lick his ring and blow smoke up his arse.
Those around him who have bought their way into the seats of power certainly have a clear agenda but as for trump?, all he wants is his arse kissed and told he is a genius at running the country.
yeah I do, he just wants acolytes to lick his ring and blow smoke up his arse.
Those around him who have bought their way into the seats of power certainly have a clear agenda but as for trump?, all he wants is his arse kissed and told he is a genius at running the country.
So you think "they" have been doing that for 40 years? That's what I call playing a long game!
The Bond market reation proved that not to be the case.
Although that seems mostly down to the hedge funds who were executing "basis trades" which gives a nice profit if everything operates normally but in order to do so are highly leveraged. So anything shaking that tree results in them getting called and so having to sell to close the trades.
Basically the same as what happening to Truss where the pension funds had been playing stupid games and then got caught out.
Whilst its nice Truss and Trump got called on their stupidity it would be good if it wasnt down to a bunch of chancers relying on leveraged bets which as soon as the odds change creates a problem for all of us not just them.
It really isnt democracy to have so much relying on a bunch of people who are basically betting on red in the hope of a good profit knowing if it ends up black then everyone gets handed the bill.
So you think "they" have been doing that for 40 years? That's what I call playing a long game!
Sigh……yet again you appear to read into statements what you wish to project.
Please read again
So you think "they" have been doing that for 40 years? That's what I call playing a long game!
TBH, it does appear that "they" have been playing exactly that 40 year long game. Pretty much everything happening now is the culmination of the Heritage Foundation's long term planning, resulting in the implementation of Project 2025. The same Heritage Foundation that came to prominence during Reagan's tenure in the 80's and which has steadily increased in influence since then to the point they're now pretty much directing US policy across the board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heritage_Foundation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
https://www.project2025.observer/
Of course has a plan. Indeed i think two. An overt one and a covert one. Ie tarrifs. He has been interested in them for years.
However the plan is poorly thought thru and relies on his whims
He is also being manipulated by the russians ans yes they do play a long game. Thats a well known part of their MO. Identify folk that could be assets and nuture that link over decades. It doesnt allwats pay off but does enough to be worth the costs. He is also being manipulated by the Christian nationalists
Your basis trades might have exaggerated the movement, disonance but traders only needed to cover possitions because the market was already moving down, and not up as expected with a falling stock market. German bonds have behaved exactly as you'd expect in response to a falling Dax (continuous rise since 11/03). The inflationary impact of the proposed (but currently suspended tarifs) on the US economy specifically and retaliation/reallocation by China/Japan is more plausible to me.
https://www.onvista.de/anleihen/BUNDESREP-DEUTSCHLAND-ANL-V-2025-2035-Anleihe-DE000BU2Z049
Fact is that Trump thought he could impose his tarifs with impunity and has made himself look naive and foolish rather than the economic wizard he is in his own head.
Meanwhile the Fed has sat on its hands through the whole sorry saga, we'll see what they do on 07/05
Sigh……yet again you appear to read into statements what you wish to project.
Please read again
I'm not trying to "project" anything. It is clear that a lot of what Trump is currently saying he has been saying for a very long time. It's up to you to decide why that is.
Well if nothing else this shows his short attention span and needs to keep new news toppers cycling through.
Nothing to do with the war but shows his willingness to concentrate for a longer time.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20x5xn1g92o
I saw that VW are negotiating directly with Trumps administration for an exemption from tariffs, I would be surprised if other big corporations are not doing the same. Their respective governments need to reign them in, if corporations start their own trade negotiations bypassing the democratic governments, it will massively weaken power of the governments to withstand the rising power of the oligarchy.
I doubt there is a massive conspiracy of an aligned detailed plan. But it is clear that there are various factors working towards similar goals, oligarchs, billionaires, tech bros, Putin, American evangelists etc want very similar things, and Trump is a gift for them, he is throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks, and currently a lot is sticking. He will soon have dismantled the US government apparatus to such an extent that it won't be able to resist whether his actions are legal or not.
Corporations kowtowing for patronage probably wasn't part of the tariffs "plan" (although Trump has history of making the "masters of the universe" in wall st publicly kiss his ring from the first time around), but it is just another present that has fallen into their laps, because the system was already far too much in the favour of the rich ands powerful.
The deportation case is getting even more surreal,
Margarita case and the case of photoshopped(?) ms13 tattoos on his hand being the latest developments/distractions.
Let alone of how Trump is reporting they won that case and the Whimhouse doubling down on how he’s not coming back.
The one thing I’m not getting is how long are they planning to hold the deportees in prison ?
(I'm assuming till Trump stops paying the bills)
I suspect that the judge may start fining and jailing trumps officials and then we might see the chap returned
Their respective governments need to reign them in, if corporations start their own trade negotiations bypassing the democratic governments, it will massively weaken power of the governments to withstand the rising power of the oligarchy.
Do manufacturers have this power at all?
The EU does trade negotiations, not Germany and not VW. EU states can't negotiate within the EU, hence the Brexit mess
Well if nothing else this shows his short attention span and needs to keep new news toppers cycling through.
Nothing to do with the war but shows his willingness to concentrate for a longer time.
This is one reason for President Trump getting elected, he's never out of the news.
Audrey Haynes, a University of Georgia School of Public and International Affairs professor who specializes in presidential campaigns said,
The thing that is most interesting is that Trump, like Elon Musk, like [Robert Kennedy Jr.], had all been Democrats in the past, and they’re really not Republicans. They are basically celebrities, and this is sort of an extension of our culture. They have the ability to manipulate narratives. If you’re only getting your news from basically what has become a propaganda voicebox, regardless of what side you’re getting it from, then that’s your reality, right? How do you penetrate that reality with facts?
AND
No propaganda, no ad is effective unless those feelings already exist. I always tell students that, if you really want to change public policy, it really is something that is interactive. If people are unwilling to accept those kinds of laws, then candidates won’t run on them. They run on them because they did focus groups and they did ad tests, and they got what we call “lift”—people liked it, responded to it, were afraid of it. https://flagpole.com/news/news-features/2025/01/22/a-uga-political-science-professor-on-how-trump-got-elected-and-what-hell-do-now/
Do manufacturers have this power at all?
We have seen over the past decade or so now that the norms that we accepted are actually not law rather than just momentum in the ways things are done. I doubt there are laws stopping them, especially as the import laws and tariffs applied are at the US's discretion, has there ever been a situation like this where anyone thought to codify into law a restriction to stop corporations from doing so?
So much of the damage being done by the far right and the oligarchs is succeeding because the whole legal framework has A. been eroded and manipulated to a point where it can barely deal with the power and finance of the oligarchs, and B. far too much assumption is made about the decency and benevolence of those with power.
The one thing I’m not getting is how long are they planning to hold the deportees in prison ?
I think the Salvadoran president has already said they are all terrorists and will be there for life
This is one reason for President Trump getting elected, he's never out of the news.
Well at least we know why Farage is going to win the next GE
This could be where it starts to get interesting and legal battle lines are drawn
BBC News - US Supreme Court halts deportation of detained Venezuelans
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czd3rdjn81lo
While this, frankly, is terrifying - yes, they've started with foreign nationals with the wrong political views, but "wedge" and "thin end" spring to mind
BBC News - Anxiety at US colleges as foreign students are detained and visas revoked
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20xq5nd8jeo
I think the Salvadoran president has already said they are all terrorists and will be there for life
Yep you’re right about that, this is truly monstrous , literally picked off the street and thrown into a foreign prison for life, without a trial.
The challenge by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) also said the men had not been told they had a right to contest the decision in court.
"Without this Court's intervention, dozens or hundreds of proposed class members may be removed to a possible life sentence in El Salvador with no real opportunity to contest their designation or removal," the lawsuit read.
JFK eugenic attitude toward autism, it's something in the environment and we'll find a cause and eridicate autistic people... (before proceeding to next disability rinse and repeat) while trump desires escalating industrial technologies which cause pollution. toxic attitudes in the environment perhaps. no accommodation for anyone you will make us richer get on it slaves.
Just an example of the ****wittery of those currently working to destroy the entire American economy, legal system and judiciary.
Just an example of the ****wittery of those currently working to destroy the entire American economy, legal system and judiciary.
And grumblings coming from the pentagon after hesgeth fires another employee, I've given up on attempting to follow what's going on with trump and his cronies as there's so much shit going on it was making my head spin, so now it's occasional forays into this thread and a similar "trump" thread on another forum.
Just an example of the ****wittery of those currently working to destroy the entire American economy, legal system and judiciary.
And grumblings coming from the pentagon after hesgeth fires another employee, I've given up on attempting to follow what's going on with trump and his cronies as there's so much shit going on it was making my head spin, so now it's occasional forays into this thread and a similar "trump" thread on another forum.
The "good" news I take from this is that even if people in the law/military world over there agreed with the principles of what Trump & Co were going to do, it has been so badly implemented and made openly personal on senior figures, that Trump is not gaining any goodwill from many of those left. He's putting a lot of potentially key figures and groups between a rock and a hard place (executive vs democracy) and it will backfire at some point.
The question is how much the world will they literally burn first.
they've started with foreign nationals with the wrong political views, but "wedge" and "thin end" spring to mind
The most worrying thing for me is that this sentence would be right at home in a book on 1930s German history
That said, I'm convinced trump won't make it through his 2nd term, he'll be removed before too long. Not because he's deporting 'brown folks', which I assume plays well with his voter base, but because there are too many vested interests of the rich and powerful at stake
Even the wall st journal was calling for his impeachment the other day..
A Boeing 737Max has been returned to sender by Xiamen Air, fully liveried. It's one of several with a RRP of $55mn and now subject to China's 125% import tariff on US goods https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-jet-returns-us-china-victim-trumps-tariff-war-2025-04-20/
Three of Buick's top-sellling vehicles are made in South Korea and China and subject to tariffs.
Analysts believe higher prices could stall Buick’s momentum, and even threaten its survival. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/buick-finally-had-cars-americans-wanted-buy-then-came-tariffs-2025-04-19/
“The most beautiful word in the entire dictionary of words is the word "tariff." (DJT)
“I think they're beautiful. It’s gonna make us rich” (DJT)
apologies for the twitter link but its from Prof Steve Keen slapping down musk for his childish understanding as to how money is created
And this article from The New Yorker by Timothy Snyder is a good read.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/dispatches/what-does-it-mean-that-donald-trump-is-a-fascist?
Snyder is really good. On Tyranny is a good, quick primer, then have a read at Bloodlands or Black Earth and start losing sleep at the parallels.
As there’s a few who seem to admire Snyder then check this out, here’s John Lithgow (famous actor, you know him) reading the 20 lessons of Tyranny by Timothy Snyder, 10 minutes long but well worth a watch
https://twitter.com/iampoliticsgirl/status/1906826469248274506?s=61&t=27Xz8oI3pGlaNEQvowJBcg
Looks like Hegseth had *two* Signal chats he shared top-secret attack plans on.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g8r701lrno
This new one was for people like his brother!
How could Trump have thought for a second that he would be a solid pair of hands for this job?
Looks like Hegseth had *two* Signal chats he shared top-secret attack plans on.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g8r701lrno
This new one was for people like his brother!
How could Trump have thought for a second that he would be a solid pair of hands for this job?
Holy ****, that is truly indefensible. Once is unfortunate, twice looks like carelessness.
Looks like Hegseth had *two* Signal chats he shared top-secret attack plans on.
There's probably more that the press know about.
We learned all this from Johnson-Cummings in the UK. Don't fire all your ammo in one go. Make them lie over and over again as they slink back through a series of indefensible positions.
It's got nothing to do with the facts - it is about keeping the story front and centre for as long as possible because the attention span of the average citizen is not particularly long.
Truss vs Queen, Vance vs Pope…
Makes you think 🤔
vance is the antichrist?
is it something to do with the eyeliner?
How could Trump have thought for a second that he would be a solid pair of hands for this job?
Your implied assumption that he gives a shit is equally unfathomable IMO.
How could Trump have thought for a second that he would be a solid pair of hands for this job?
Because he said he'd lay off the booze while he was in post? (that was Hegseth, wasn't it?)
One wonders if that's still the case... 🤔
So they sent Vance to nobble the Pope so this story gets buried in the news. Makes you think....
How could Trump have thought for a second that he would be a solid pair of hands for this job?
Because Trump rules like a medieval king. The only qualification you need for any top job is your unquestioning subserviance to 'The Donald'. Any other considerations - including any notable taent or ability - are frankly irrelevant
I'd imagine the big cheeses at Boeing are having a word with Trumps various minions about the trade tarrifs. The first of their ($55 million apiece) planes delivered to Chineses customers have just started arriving back in the states. Theres orders for another 130 that have just been cancelled
Seems it's already starting to hurt commercial airlines in the US.. But I suspect it's early days yet as these things take time to really translate into these kind of stats, due to people having advance bookings that they won't cancel unless they have to lest they flush thier expensive holiday down toilet.
Data from aviation advisory firm Visual Approach Analytics show that arrivals of European travellers to the USA declined 7% year on year in the first quarter – and 17% year on year in March.
Hegseth surely cant last much longer, I know flooding the zone with shit is trump's style but at some point the chaos must get weary for Trump too!?!?
The 4 CIA heads hegseth fired, 2 were his allies, which says something, with trump pushing for tariffs and picking fights with the Fed, hitting the markets again, he's risking a recession, no progress in Ukraine other than helping Putin, Gazas looking as horrific as ever, china is doubling down on the trade war, its getting harder than ever to blame biden
amd were only 3 months in!
Some suggestions on Bluesky that the White House is briefing that they’re looking for a new Secretary of Defence.
https://bsky.app/profile/sturdyalex.bsky.social/post/3lndudeeut22u
Some suggestions on Bluesky that the White House is briefing that they’re looking for a new Secretary of Defence.
https://bsky.app/profile/sturdyalex.bsky.social/post/3lndudeeut22u
He wasn't 'towing the line' for 'glorious leader' in some respect, is my guess.
I mean... no one ever got kicked out of 'Spoons for being drunk, unless they physically couldn't stand up to get to the bar and pay for more booze.
There’s a certain irony in the fact that Trump has long been referred to as The Donald or Don. The Don would be more appropriate, as he’s effectively the boss of a mafia state…
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/21/opinion/trump-universities-mafia-state.html
Catatonia have a song called “I Am The Mob”, with a rather appropriate line:
“Stop blowing the Don put his keks back on,
’cause I am the Mob”.
I deeply regret sharing details of a classified airstrike with my family, my lawyer and a well respected journalist as well as the defense team...
I deeply regret sharing details of a classified airstrike with my family, my lawyer and a well respected journalist as well as the defense team...
Wouldn't be so bad if he had been fake contrite about it, but he came out all guns blazing about the media dragging up old non-stories about stuff that didn't matter.
BBC TV report last night were happy to report the sources saying Trump was looking to replace, so it sounds like he's had the political equivalent of getting backed by the chairman.
Last night we watched the film - 'Where the Crawdads sing'. It's a wonderfully filmed (from the book) coming of age piece set from 1953 to the late 1960's. But what struck a cord for me, was the way the women of that time were portrayed. Most of the males, even the very young ones, were chauvinistic, misogynistic and bullies.
It brought to mind that this is what the orangefaced gibbon would like to regress to. Those dark ages when women were barely allowed an opinion, had mostly to grin and bear their lot and be chained to a kitchen sink under the eye of their male keeper. imo of course.
Quite glad I don't live in the USA.
Quite glad I don't live in the USA.
Looks like the video has been removed from Reddit, and the link in the comments to it on YouTube isn't working either.
I'm assuming from the comments he's done a simple comparison of the actions of the Nazis in the 1930s to the actions of Trump so far, which isn't exactly a revelation to those of us who have followed the thread for a while.
Here it is on YT.
I'm assuming from the comments he's done a simple comparison of the actions of the Nazis in the 1930s to the actions of Trump so far,
Yes and no. He's suggesting that sending people to life imprisonment in El Salvador for having the wrong tattoos is just to distract attention.
My hope is that Trump is so incompetent that he fails to actually build concentration camps on the territory of the USA. Otherwise anything is possible at this point.
He's suggesting that sending people to life imprisonment in El Salvador for having the wrong tattoos is just to distract attention
I read it more as setting the pretext for imprisoning them in the US instead and therefore making them available for slave labour, as per the 13th Amendment. Double whammy of turning his base even more against the rule of law:
"SAD! These loser liberal judges are back at it, trying to stop me from sending these CRIMINAL immigrants where they belong, in the great high security prisons of El Salvador. Can you believe it folks? These disgusting liberals want them HERE, in YOUR neighborhoods! But we can still beat these DISLOYAL so-called "judges". I'm building the biggest, most beautiful supermax prisons, right here in the US. We'll send these illegal, CRIMINAL immigrants there instead! Put them to WORK for us! Keep them OFF OUR STREETS!"
Tesla boss Elon Musk says he will cut back his role in Donald Trump's administration after the company's profits and revenues plunged during the first three months of the year.
from the BBC article.
while I think the government needs less Elon, I’m not sure that getting extra Elon is really what Tesla needs!
while I think the government needs less Elon, I’m not sure that getting extra Elon is really what Tesla needs!
My thoughts exactly. If they can't see that he is the problem and not the solution....
The orange buffoon has folded on the tariffs.
What a loser.
from the BBC article.
while I think the government needs less Elon, I’m not sure that getting extra Elon is really what Tesla needs!
I find it odd that neither the Beeb nor the Guardian mention his nazi salutes, and cosying up with far right parties as being part of what's could be denting their sales.
TBH isn’t he making JD Vance the new Tariff czar/tsar 🙂
Looks increasingly like Putin knows full well that he can now do whatever the hell he likes with total impunity as far as Trump is concerned.
The start of the war was Ukraines fault, the continuation of this war is Ukraines fault, and Donald not getting a Nobel Peace Prize is now Ukraines fault. Poor old Russia is blameless in all this.
while I think the government needs less Elon, I’m not sure that getting extra Elon is really what Tesla needs!
My thoughts exactly. If they can't see that he is the problem and not the solution....
The shareholders arn't really keen on him, for fairly obvious reasons:
https://news.sky.com/story/tesla-investor-calls-for-elon-musk-to-step-down-as-boss-13331499
https://www.marke****ch.com/investing/stock/tsla
You could argue the stock was overpriced, like you could for much of the S&P500, and due a fall, and then came the trade war..
It's like a weird Mexican stand-off between tariffs, investors, Maga and musk, lol!
Also, good job, swear filter, 13/10 🤣 🤣
Still no sign of Melania 🤔
Still no sign of Melania 🤔
She was with Trump at the White House over Easter weekend when he gave a great inspirational speech alongside the Easter Bunny. I am not making that up.
He's starting to make BoJo look like a credible leader 🙄
He's never been a credible leader and he never will be. Same applies to our Poundshop version. No one can express any surprise over the things Trump does or says. The US electorate re-elected him knowing full well what a reprehensible man he is.
It looks like things are getting very tense between India and ****stan over Kashmir. Admittedly this is the umpteenth time it has happened and it has sparked three local wars. But not since 1999. If these two start going at it, the conflict will put Ukraine and even Gaza in the shade.
What will Trump do? Suggest they sit down over a curry and discuss? Propose turning Kashmir into a large golf resort?
The world needs the US as a moderating force run by serious politicians. Not a basket case run by a geriatric sex offender.
Interesting that the swear filter picks up the first part of a country name - better safe than sorry, I guess. 🤣
arsenal
That one slipped through.
****stan could be anywhere in central Asia really.