Donald! Trump!

@aracer yes I think when 1 issue is important enough people (inc me) will overlook short comings elsewhere. I don't believe FN are a racist party FWIW

Not surprised by your FN support Jambalaya.
She is trying to dampen the fascist image of her party, with limited success. Fortunately her dad does his best to contradict her.

His daughter has had him kicked out of FN

FN are only party suggesting a Referendum on euro / EU - you can elect a government for 1 term to deliver that

Again, that's what a lot of the people who voted Nazi in the 30's thought - they thought that the Nazi party had been gentrified. For someone so educated, you're being an utter fool Jamby, you're better than this - I know it.

[quote=jambalaya ]I don't believe FN are a racist party FWIW

Ah - what did you mean by this then?

[quote=jambalaya ]

Andy - they probably don't like the 41% increase in racism it comes with.

They are coming from France where Front Nationale are the most popular party

“I moved on her and I failed – I’ll admit it,” he says, continuing: “I did try and **** her, she was married. And I moved on her very heavily.

“In fact, I took her out furniture shopping. She wanted to get some furniture. I said: ‘I’ll show you where they have some nice furniture.’ I moved on her like a bitch, but I couldn’t get there. And she was married.

Let's put those words in the mouth of someone who looks......like......we'll......this:

[img] [/img]

And imagine he was talking about Mrs Trump.

Do you reckon Donald would let him shrug his shoulders and say "eeeez just ze locker room banter"?

I really did think the Brexit vote was the nadir, now I'm not so sure where the bottom of the barrel is.

I'm just hoping that the bottom of the barrel is a dead [i]Il Douche[/i] hanging naked upside down from a petrol station, along with his wife and family.

Hopefully that will serve as a poignant reminder to all the cretins that history informs the present. Robert Theobald’s parable of the frog comes to mind in which Frogs permit themselves to be slowly boiled to death. If the cool temperature of the water in which the frog is immersed is slowly raised, the frog does not become aware of its danger until it is too late to do anything about it.

Trump's won and I'll wait until he does something I disagree with before slagging him off.

Let's make this country great again:

[img] ?imgmax=1600[/img]

Bollocks:

[img] [/img]

Tom I hear you .. However I do believe the Hitler comparisons are very much overdone. Trump isn't a Nazi and neither is Marine Le Penn. A repetion of 1936 Germany simply is not possible today in Western Europe.

Interesting comments now on Newsnight, the Brexit references during the campaign are consistent with a [b]worldwide[/b] movement against globalisation and the establishment elite. In the end that was the cruicial issue.

EDIT: Alan Greenspan ex head of the Federal Reserve said he didn't vote for anyone for President 😐

Just to cheer you all up, I don't think we've done this one yet:

https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/history-tells-us-what-will-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714#.p9u6kbsu5

edit: crossposted with jamba, but an interesting rebuttal to his post

I think something like ... Fund raising via Clinton Foundation for earthquake relief then spending the money for personal gain / influence.

A repetion of 1936 Germany simply is not possible today in Western Europe.

Thank heavens. I can go to sleep soundly now jambalaya has reassured me.

Are we onto just straight piss-taking now? How the **** can you be so sure?

@dannyh UN, NATO and countries just don't have the military means

Perhaps I should take a break, people seem to be getting very wound up. I would have voted for Hillary but with a very heavy heart.

Newsnight is a better choice. Will read that link later @aracer

A repetion of 1936 Germany simply is not possible today in Western Europe.

No, not a repeat. But something else. Trumps aims are nothing like Hitler's, but the techniques are so far pretty similar. Likewise May.

the Brexit references during the campaign are consistent with a worldwide movement against globalisation and the establishment elite.

By 'campaign' do you mean the US election campaign?

I really hope this is the start of a worldwide movement to end neo-liberalism. But I hope that does not exclude international co-operation and reduction of borders.

It would be great if Brexit really triggered some kind of proper reform in Europe (the continent, not the EU). Maybe Le Penn winning would start some kind of domino effect, and maybe something positive would come of it.

No, he's not a Nazi, he's a spiteful, unpredictable, populist, lying, man child. I feel better already.

Calexit anyone?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/nov/09/trump-win-california-secede-calexit-silicon-valley?CMP=fb_gu

Unlike Scotland or Yorkshire, California could pay it's way ....

I really hope this is the start of a worldwide movement to end neo-liberalism. But I hope that does not exclude international co-operation and reduction of borders.

Why? Neoliberalism, certainly in terms of freerer trade - is what has allowed poorer countries to compete with us, it's brought untold millions out of poverty. Trump and Le Pen are cynical reactions against that, the reaction of people that believe they are more deserving and entitled to economic prosperity soley due to their nationality.

For this planet to operate at it's most efficient capacity, those meritous enough to succeed should not be held back on the basis of their nationality - even if that means certain sections of society that cannot compete in a higher tech 21st century economy, get left out. They should either accept handouts from the left in terms of fake/pointless state jobs being created to make themselves feel useful, or **** off.

Unlike Scotland or Yorkshire, California could pay it's way ....

California is pretty much bust - tech companies aren't keen on paying tax.

California is pretty much bust - tech companies aren't keen on paying tax.

A repetion of 1936 Germany simply is not possible today in Western Europe.

You are supporting right wing leaders who campaign for more to be spent on the armed forces, and less on helping the less well off.

You are cheerleading for the break up of the EU.

You are welcoming a new POTUS who has ranted against NATO and the role of the USA in keeping the peace in Europe for the last 15 years.

You are hoping for more nativist and nationalist governments in Europe.

So, if European countries are to all start retreating back into their little nationalist enclaves, and spending more on militarisation, and the USA withdraws from NATO… are we making it more or less likely that the mistakes of the C20 can happen again? If things keep playing out politically in ways that you support?

And I haven't mentioned Russia, or the rise of racism, because doing so gets your back up, so ignore those two huge elephants in the room, and discuss the points above. All things that you welcome, and all make us less secure, and more likely to repeat the mistakes of the C20… yes/no/depends… what do you think and why?

I was impressed with Obama today saying he was going to tell his team to work with Trump's team for a smooth handover (as Bush did the same for him). It certainly beats the 'there's no money left, good luck' note that some nugget in the Labour party (Liam Byrne) left for the coalition when they took over. Makes you think . . .

I refer you to DSK, Junkyard. Or Mick Jagger. Gold diggers or genuine victims? Innocent till proven guilty and all that.

Many of the things he shouted about in his campaign were illegal, unconstitutional, need the approval of the house over which he has no more control than Obama, or need the complicity of the supreme court to change. He knew that, it was hot air and I think he'll now get on with being the best president he can. The word I keep hearing that gives me hope is "pragmatist".

"the role of the USA in keeping the peace in Europe for the last 15 years."

Keeping the peace?! Priceless.

there a good article by Naomi Klein in the Guardian today which perhaps explains Jambalaya's points a little

A repetion of 1936 Germany simply is not possible today in Western Europe.

Probably not.

Because the ECHR, NATO, and the EU have been in place to bind Western Europe together legally/socially, militarily and economically. It simply hasn't been possible or worth our while to do what happened through the 1930s and 40s.

Of course no one in their right minds would try to take those three institutions apart, would they Andy?

And yet we find all three under threat.

It's far from inevitable yet, but I suspect the next major European war is coming and will probably start with Russian aggression in what it regards as its sphere of influence (let's be honest we see that already) possibly supported by disgruntled broke countries at the margins of the EU (either just inside or just outside) starting to sympathise and possible ally with Russia. Where the final spark in the tinderbox will be I don't know.

Anyone who thinks hundreds of years of a good European war (Britain will be in Europe under that definition) once a generation is over because, during the 50-70 years that we specifically built structures to stop it, it didn't happen is mad.

"Many of the things he shouted about in his campaign were illegal, unconstitutional, need the approval of the house over which he has no more control than Obama, or need the complicity of the supreme court to change. He knew that, it was hot air and I think he'll now get on with being the best president he can. The word I keep hearing that gives me hope is "pragmatist"."

This. As Obama says he's uniquely unqualified for the job, but he'll have a vast amount of support plus he'll be well boxed in by his own party, events and the establishment.

Also he's not a youngster. The decline between 70 and 80 is steep and plenty of people don't even make 80.

@dannyh UN, NATO and countries just don't have the military means

A good old fashioned arms race will sort that. Keep me posted when politicians start lining us up for rebuilding their nations respective militaries.

Academia has long been poisoned by left wing knobs so its no surprise that students are confused and voted Hillary. Safe Space dogma has hopefully been shattered

You mean they don't like racism or sexism, yeah what a bunch of Pc gone mad knobs

Well done for highlighting the problem so clearly Kimbers...which of the social sciences did you "study" at uni? 😆 😮

Enfht - coming across a bit reactionary there. Carrying a bit of a chip on your shoulder? 😀

Also he's not a youngster. The decline between 70 and 80 is steep and plenty of people don't even make 80.

Are we talking natural wastage or the grassy knoll effect?

which of the social sciences did you "study" at uni?

Fund raising via Clinton Foundation for earthquake relief then spending the money for personal gain / influence.

Have you actually read the piece?

Supporting Le Pen eh? Well that confirms what I suspected.

The Front National Is a racist party, no doubt about that. The few towns where they won elections have had increased police and lots of fascist policies.

I still work in academia, well research, but there's professors and students all over the shop it's a lefty paradise!, I'm not sure if that qualifies me to recognise bigotry when I see it, or if we've just been 'poisoned' in some way ?

In that case you may be too far gone to recognise the signs, we only have your ‘rational’ opinions to go by 😀

Lots of protests in the US last night.
Not a good start.

Interesting thread, which seems to blowing itself out. After the shock, the outrage and the general negativity, one things for sure, what with Brexit and Trump, it's certainly going to be an interesting few years ahead! 😮

Interesting few years? I admire your optimism Rockape

[img] [/img]

Daffy - Member

No, he's not a Nazi, he's a spiteful, unpredictable, populist, lying, man child. I feel better already.

Say what you like about the tenets of national socialism, at least it's an ethos.

[url= https://imgur.com/TOGIbcP ]The reason Hillary "lost"[/url], people just didn't turn out for her. Mccain and Romney both had higher votes that Trump.

[img] [/img]

The reason Hillary "lost", people just didn't turn out for her. Mccain and Romney both had higher votes that Trump.

Have you actually read the piece?

Supporting Le Pen eh? Well that confirms what I suspected.

Selective quoting willfully missing off the first part of the sentence - chapeau. Did you read the piece $30m cia Clinton Foundation, small in comparison to Clinton's involvement as Secretary of State but not zero. FN is the only party offering a Referendum on euro/EU so it's the onky choice for voters who care about that issue. Cameron was smart enough to take that option away from UKiP. Let's wait and see what happens with UMP policy prior to April/May French election - it's not beyond the realm of possibility they move in the same direction.

cchris if FN is a racist party why would you be choosing to leave the UK to live in a country where Marine Le Penn is looking increasingly likely to be President (raised on Newsnight last night where two commentators said the Trump win had in their view made it very likely she would win)

5thElefant - Member

[s]Less[/s]Fewer people voted republican than the last two elections too

Interesting thread, which seems to blowing itself out. After the shock, the outrage and the general negativity, one things for sure, what with Brexit and Trump, it's certainly going to be an interesting few years ahead!

Agreed. European Soveriegn Debt crises to follow 2017 elections (delibertaely kicked into long grass beyond that date but most certainly not gone away), US getting less involved in conflicts leaving Europe to sort out its own issues. I'll be interested to see what Trump does about the 10's if not 100's of billions of taxes gone unpaid by US tech companies hidden offshore (Ireland and Lux). US / EU relations could get very frosty indeed.

I'll be interested to see what Trumpmdoes about the 10's if not 100's of billions of taxes gone unpaid by US tech companies hidden offshore (Ireland and Lux).

Surely he will congratulate them on how smart they are 😀

Le Pen in France is far worse than Trump in the US for their own respective countries. For the world I guess Trump has the potential to be far more damaging but I have a feeling (as do EU people I speak to here) that France electing the FN will kick the door in to an almost total breakdown of the EU as it currently stands.

Is anyone else concerned that there is soon the possibility that 'The Donald' and our own stupid-haired, principle-free, tell-em-what-they-want-to-hear, man-baby will be conducting negotiations together?

This could surely create a critical mass of self-absorbed narcissism that could form a vortex that could destroy the whole planet? Gone! Destroyed as we all dissapear into a massive, weird, odd-cloured wig 😯

Jamba the furher

read this quote from your link

A US Government Accountability Office report discovered no hint of wrongdoing, but concluded the IHRC's decisions were "not necessarily aligned with Haitian priorities".

Which is hugely different from your lie that Clinton took money or her own gain.

Because life is not all about politics.
I certainly wouldn't vote for her.
Difference between her and Trump is that she is part of the political establishment, she only got where she is because of her dad.
Outsider in French election? Macron probably. Not a politician as such but has deep roots in financial world ( worked for Rotchild bank I think) which might go against him.
Apart from Le Pen, I can't see anyone else worst than Hollande.

[i]Academia has long been poisoned by left wing knobs[/i]

Er, have you ever stopped to think critically about what the sentiment 'academia is full of left wing people' is actually stating. Always makes me chuckle hearing it being used negatively...kind of shooting yourself in the foot... 😀

I'll be interested to see what Trumpmdoes about the 10's if not 100's of billions of taxes gone unpaid by US tech companies hidden offshore (Ireland and Lux)

As an aside, what is the May UK Government doing about it? For ages a lot of UK companies were using Luxembourg, Ireland etc to get tax breaks. Not seen much evidence of the newly minted against-EU-tax-havens Tory government chasing BA, for example, for back taxes.

[url=

him[/url]

FN is the only party offering a Referendum on euro/EU so it's the onky choice for voters who care about that issue.

That's a bit (pardon the pun) black and white though, isn't it. If the BNP said "we'll built dutch style cycle infrastructure across the UK. Also we'll put all Muslims in internment camps and ban non-whites from using the NHS and publicly funded schools" then I wouldn't vote for them. I care about cycle infrastructure but I also care about, y'know, basic human decency. What line would be crossed for an EU referendum to be not worth voting for someone? For some (nutjobs) nothing would be worth it, for others it would be a smaller thing. Surely most voters have a long list of issues that they care about and a vote is a balancing act between those priorities.

Er, have you ever stopped to think critically about what the sentiment 'academia is full of left wing people' is actually stating.

I was going to say similar.

You get a bunch of intelligent pepole all together to really study something, and you get a left wing bias. I wonder why...!

If you vote with racists regardless of reason you are no better than them. All you achieve is to enable them.

And the Nuremberg defence is no defence. You can't say just following orders, you can't say i didn't think it would go this far etc etc etc.

Human nature has not and does not change, there will always be those who can magic up solutions and blame them. There will always be a significant part of society that has "failed" that rather than try and change what is, will blame them.

Go and have a read of some history books start with Thucydides and work forward. Time and time again egos, lies, promises and here we go again.

Because life is not all about politics.

Agreed but you did suggest you where leaving the UK due to Brexit impact and increased intolerance ? My point was France is in a worse state. Intolerance here has been inflamed by terrorist attack after terrorist attack. The army have gone from just guarding Jewish schools and synagogues to now patrolling the streets, they walk past our place a few times every day. We see them patrolling the park and the playground. This is all post Nice with the public (quite rationally) asking why their schools where not protected too. We live opposite a school, it now has a security system so you cannot get in. It didn't used to be like this. The army are protecting France's citizens against other French and EU citizens. The Army and this is in a country where the police are fully armed. Now will you feel safer being in the countryside or wonder whether you are a soft target ? This state of affairs imo has more to do with FN's rise than the EU which is "my" main issue.

Becoming a professor does not mean everything you say is correct, especially when it comes to politics - but I accept it unfortunately results in many believing 2+2=5

Apart from Le Pen, I can't see anyone else worst than Hollande

Sarko 2.0?

Jamby has fallen hook, line and sinker for the fn's rebranding trick. Daddy Lepen has been only too willing to play along, by being more and more extreme to make the following generation look more acceptable.

Even if she's the only presidential candidate proposing a referendum on the EU (which she isn't, there's also Dupont-Aignan) you'd still be siding with the monarchists, the hard core catholics and the pieds noirs, all of which are the traditional voting base for the fn.

Becoming a professor does not mean everything you say is correct

Of course. But the majority of professors in the majority of universities...? The job of an academic is to study something objectively. So we could then conclude that the objectively best way to run a country lies somewhere on the left of the political spectrum, could we not?

Planning application in for Donald's wall

Trail build outside mexican restaurant in aberdeen

[img] [/img]

Left wing people in academia is not necessarily cause and effect. People of a left wing persuasion are probably drawn more to academia than others who see academia as a mechanism to get a skillset they take out into the big wide world. In anycase education and intelligence doesn't guarantee that the right decisions are made. Plenty of clever people make poor decisions all the time. There are plenty of intelligent stupid people or highly educated stupid people out there.

Brexit and Trump are clearly protests against the established system. I heard a shocking fact on R4 this morning that vast swathes of the American people haven't seen a their pay or quality of life improve since the '70's. So it's no surprise that if you're in that situation you are bound to feel let down by the system and the established political system who obviously don't have any interest in doing anything about it. A vote for Clinton was a vote for a continuation of norm, nothing will change or improve. A vote for Trump was a vote for something different - a roll of the dice, when you feel you're already at rock bottom then you will feel you've got nothing to lose.

I just hope that this does wake up those in power and triggers some real and fundamental change. If not then things will get a bit fruity going forward.

wobbliscott - same reason that massive amounts of working class northerners, and people in Wales voted for Brexit, when logically it makes no sense, and the 'liberal elite' couldn't understand it.

Its because they feel, completely correctly, that they've been absolutely abandoned by a Westminster establishment (of all colours) that genuinely doesn't give a **** about them, so why not try a leap in the dark?

Surely it can't be any worse?

Our decision to move to France was made before Brexit, but Brexit confirmed it was the right choice for my family and I.
Maybe it is because you are new to France, but army patroling the streets is nothing new.
France has always been the target for terrorists, eta, brigades rouges, Carlos etc...

A National Front win at the national level will give you "Brexit plus plus plus" in France.

Except Binners that they were abandoned by Westminster and decided to hand more power (perhaps) to Westminster.

Mad.

I heard a shocking fact on R4 this morning that vast swathes of the American people haven't seen a their pay or quality of life improve since the '70's.

Having access to health care isn't a step change in terms of quality of life?
Shame that will be undone very soon.

Anyway, wasn't that Steve Hilton on R4 again, floating mid-Atlantic, warning about the effects of globalisation (the Irony King).

In anycase education and intelligence doesn't guarantee that the right decisions are made.

Of course.

However it seems, from watching politics, that a significant number of politicians, particularly right-wing ones, like to conveniently ignore facts or deliberately under-research things, to support things they've already decided they want to do.

The army are protecting France's citizens against other French and EU citizens.

We had that over here in the 70's and 80's or have you forgotten that?

igm - I'm not saying I agree with the conclusion they reached. Quite the opposite. I think its insane! But I understand fully how we got there. In the same way as those in the Westminster bubble don't.

But I think there's going to be a whole world of shit goes down when these people realise how compressively they've been conned, and played for mugs!

Same with Trump in the states. Both have done the same thing. Promised change, and ... *whisper it*... 'hope' to a section of the population that has been, at best ignored, and at worst villified by the establishment

Trouble is that they've done it cynically, for their own ends, with no intention of delivering the outcomes they promised, and no care to the consequences

When this becomes apparent, which it will very rapidly (hence the silence from the brexiteers) I predict serious social unrest. Boris, Farage, Trump and the rest of these Hucksters and charlatans are playing a lot more dangerous game than they arrogantly think they're getting away with. For now

A vote for Clinton was a vote for a continuation of norm, nothing will change or improve. A vote for Trump was a vote for something different - a roll of the dice, when you feel you're already at rock bottom then you will feel you've got nothing to lose.

Its because they feel, completely correctly, that they've been absolutely abandoned by a Westminster establishment (of all colours) that genuinely doesn't give a **** about them, so why not try a leap in the dark?

and ^^

It was always going to be this way, and the fact that you didn't have to be some kind of political genius to see it, makes the campaigning strategies of team Clinton, and the Remainers look even more stupid.
They gave no hope or plan to the millions that have fallen off life's tightrope.

I heard a shocking fact on R4 this morning that vast swathes of the American people haven't seen a their pay or quality of life improve since the '70's.

Is that empirically true or is it more of a reflection of how those people feel?

I understand this disenfranchised/left-behind argument and it is definitely a driving force. But are we saying that nearly half of voters in America, 60 million people, feel this way?

Exactly Binners.
That is why I hope that Trump election is the bottom and the only way is up.

[img] [/img]

Of course. But the majority of professors in the majority of universities...? The job of an academic is to study something objectively. So we could then conclude that the objectively best way to run a country lies somewhere on the left of the political spectrum, could we not?

The sad reality is you don't get on in academia unless you tow the red line. The more vocal you are, particularly nowadays on social media the more progress you make. Utterly sickening.

"@clod not gleeful at all but it is what it is and we should try and understand why it happened and make sure we make the best of it. I have to say thinking that it was "rich white people" that lead to the victory is particularly dangerous certainly for those on the left here. Rich white people supported Hillary as part of the $1billion she spent, double that of Trump. I also think Trump's victory helps us materially with Brexit not least as it will lead to stronger electoral performance of those in Europe who want to radically reform the EU."

That's not really answering my question, which was about you appearing to endorse a racist, misogynist egomaniac. You then go on to state that you would support the Front National because you believe their policies favour your own ideological beliefs.

You do realise you appear to be supporting racist, misogynist, fascist egomaniacal scum, don't you?

Why?

GrahamS

I understand this disenfranchised/left-behind argument and it is definitely a driving force. But are we saying that nearly half of voters in America, 60 million people, feel this way?

In addition to those that feel left behind or abandoned you have those who feel like mainstream politics in the U.S is broken, an old boys network that exists to serve itself, and Hilary is the embodiment of that. A lot of people want to throw a spanner into that system and see what happens.

In addition to that I think there's been a a huge polarization of political leanings in the U.S and Trump is not the cause, he's just riding the crest of the wave. It has been touched on in this thread and I believe it to be true that the left has become completely toxic, regressive and self destructive.

The default tactic is now to attack the person in the most vehement terms in the hope to destroy them, rather than dissect their argument.

eg.

maxtorque

If you're happy to be respected by a racist c**t then fair doo's that's your choice

Junkyard

I am genuinely astounded so many folk could vote for a racist sexist, woman assaulting orange quifured man child with anger management issue.

clodhopper - Member

Jambalaya; I have to say, you seem almost gleeful that Hilary Clinton was beaten by a racist, misogynist egomaniac. You've been very highly critical of Hilary (I don't have an issue with that, for she is truly vile), yet I can't recall you ever directing such a critical eye towards Trump. That's, racist, misogynistic, egomaniacal Donald Trump. I find this somewhat perplexing, given your outspoken behaviour regarding the alleged 'anti-Semitism' in the Labour party. Surely someone who is so dedicated towards challenging xenophobia would be very critical of someone like racist, misogynistic, egomaniacal Donald Trump. But you're not.

So, could you explain this for me? Thanks.

.....and the impression I get from reading threads like these on American forums is that it has gotten to the point where people simply don't give a **** anymore. That's not to say they don't give a **** about racism, it's that "racist" "sexist" misogynist" "homophobe" "transphobe" etc are thrown around so quickly and with such deliberate intent to shut down debate that they have actually lost all effect and are basically back firing.

enfht - Member

The sad reality is you don't get on in academia unless you tow the red line. The more vocal you are, particularly nowadays on social media the more progress you make. Utterly sickening.

that is quite simply absolute bollox

please provide me with some evidence of this happening at all, let alone that its endemic

Donald can't be all bad. His mum was from Lewis and liked motorbikes... 🙂

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"Academia has long been poisoned by left wing knobs"

I've read plenty of ignorant and deluded bollocks on here, but this is right up there.

So much hate; so much ignorance, so little understanding. 🙁

Some in Government think they have just been dealt the Brexit Trump card