Donald! Trump!

So Trumps says he'll double growth.

The only ways to do that in the short term is slash regulation or borrow loads.

Borrowing isn't popular with Republicans, and slashing regulation is what got most of his voters into their current positions in the first place 🙂

"The only ways to do that in the short term is slash regulation or borrow loads.
Borrowing isn't popular with Republicans, and slashing regulation is what got most of his voters into their current positions in the first place"

Yup. And shouting "racist" doesn't really get that message across!

Post truth politics. It doesn't matter if it's all a load of bollocks if you can get people to believe it. And it's actually easier to sell complete bollocks because you don't have any inconvenient bits.

Not convinced I buy this post truth stuff, at least in sense of being new to the brexit debate or Trump. I think the reason for Brexit/Trump is a reaction to the basis of our politics over the last 20 years, and specifically a failure to tell the electorate the truth about the end of the post war boom. Maybe they didn't explicitly lie or exaggerate, but they certainly swept the issues under the carpet.

People feel the pressure of a changing world, but the politicians have refused to engage with the underlying issues and instead spout platitudes, or try to de-legitimise debate around things like immigration. Hence the blowback - 'I'm mad as hell and can't take it any more' vote Trump.

So.. what if there were a specific free trade deal between the US and UK?

We could be sending our fuel injectors to the US to be heat treated rather than Germany. It would be quite different to NAFTA because they wouldn't be able to outsource here for cheap labour.

Yup. And shouting "racist" doesn't really get that message across!

what can you shout?

Trump was repeatedly factchecked as the lowest ever rating for a presidential candidate

people dont care

they have had enough of 'experts' and would rather believe in demagogues and tabloids

Molgrips/out of breath - you misunderestimate what republicanism is now. Small government isn't what's really on the table, massive investment a la the New Deal is. Small government only applies in terms of cultural and social issues, the Red states love their economic pork barrel, and Trump is a populist willing to spend on populist programs.

they have had enough of 'experts' and would rather believe in demagogues and tabloids

"Why?"

Because space is really really nice.

When was the last time you heard someone say "We went on holiday to X because it was really crowded."

When was the last time you heard someone say "I'd really like a more cramped house?"

I think we are seeing a great swell of people effectively flicking V's to what they perceive to be the Establishment in the only way they can these day

"Why?"

Because space is really really nice.

When was the last time you heard someone say "We went on holiday to X because it was really crowded."

When was the last time you heard someone say "I'd really like a more cramped house?"

our entire economy is built on growth

humans expand to fill whatever niche they can

thats why we dont all live in Ethiopia any more

you cant fight this, you need to work with it
[img] [/img]

If Trump goes isolationist, he'd could have a mahooosive amount to spend at home - he'd have the finance to really deliver on the promises (in the short term, anyway).

Then "others" move in to fill the "gap" and we can then invite the Americans over for lessons in post imperialist farting.

I voted remain, I think Trump exemplifies all that is wrong in the world personally. [u] BUT[/u].. i hope that what has happened both in the UK and the US serves as a huge kick in the jacksy to politicians that the people desperately want change, that somehow they will swallow the lies and false promises being made if they feel they are being promised change and an upset to the "establishment".

It is very easy to scream "racist, xenophobe" at all those that voted for Brexit or for Trump, when they are figure-headed by people who seem to speak in anti-Mexican or anti-Europe soundbites, but you cannot think that a whole nation is stupid, you have to look at under all the media misreporting, exactly why the people voted for Trump.

There was very interesting comment made by an American in response to a post by Moby this morning on FB. Which cleared up a lot of questions for me, he said "Remember if the country really was just bigots then Obama never would of won because he said what the white working class to hear. They feel let down because in their eyes he did not deliver. White working class folks who voted for "hope and change" are going for Trump now because they realized that establishment politicians on both sides have sold them out. They don't see Trump as an establishment candidate. They see him as a change.

You can't blame this on bigots. Obama won Indiana in 2008 because he promised change, which was historically Republican AND 87.5% white but who have now voted Trump. Blame this election of the hubris of the plutocratic Democratic establishment that put their thumbs on the scale to nominate Clinton over Sanders. Remember Sanders blew her out of the water in Michigan"

"our entire economy is built on growth"

Yep.

It's a giant pyramid scheme.

From a mate on Facebook:

It's Kim Jong Un I feel sorry for.

Poor old Kim must have thought that his position as the world's biggest demagogue tyrannical ****wit with weirdest hair in charge of a nation was unassailable.

[i] I think the reason for Brexit/Trump is a reaction to the basis of our politics over the last 20 years, and specifically a failure to tell the electorate the truth about the end of the post war boom.[/I]

+1

Bottom line, don't expect to be better off than your parents, in fact don't expect to be better off in the future at all.

So.. what if there were a specific free trade deal between the US and UK?

We could be sending our fuel injectors to the US to be heat treated rather than Germany. It would be quite different to NAFTA because they wouldn't be able to outsource here for cheap labour.

There is a strong argument that this would be the ideal move for the UK - even more so with if you threw Canada, Australia etc. Into the mix

Existing cultural ties, No language barriers, similar education and legal systems, highly developed science and technical fields. FUll of win

I actually agree Ninfan. It could save our bacon that's for sure, economically and technically.

I'm not sure I prefer it to being in the EU mind. Culturally we'd be poorer for it.

I don't think it's helpful to label Trump voters as 'thick', 'stupid' or 'idiots', even of some of them are. This whole mess has been created by the establishment elites' failure to throw the majority working classes enough bones. And the obviously woefully poor standards of eduction in the USA (which the UK is trying to emulate). Unenlightened, uninformed people will vote according to emotion and fear. Keep people uneducated and you stifle their ability for self-emancipation. Educate people, and they might learn to see how the wool is being pulled over their eyes.

Hilary's campaign failed because she, and her elite groups, aren't actually interested in addressing the issues which lead to Trumpism, they just want power. I'm actually quite glad Hilary failed, because she's a truly vile woman, who should be nowhere near any form of power, least of all over other people's lives.

Trump becoming president might actually, in a weird and perverse way, be good for the USA and indeed, the world. There will be so much internal division and trying to stop the egomaniac, that the US won't be able to concentrate so much effort on 'foreign policy', and it will inevitably weaken in terms of global power. The USA has for far too long, held too much power over the rest of the world, which has prevented true social progression. A less potent, less belligerent, less egotistical USA might actually start to address it's own issues better, and become a better nation as a result. The irony is, that Trump could prove to be the kick up the arse the USA needs. It could benefit not [i]because[/i] of Trump, but in [i]spite[/i] of him.

I'm pretty glad I'm not a US citizen right now though. And we've got enough shit of our own to sort out.

If Trump goes isolationist, he'd could have a mahooosive amount to spend at home - he'd have the finance to really deliver on the promises (in the short term, anyway).

But wouldn't that necessarily mean reducing armed forces spending?

Blame this election of the hubris of the plutocratic Democratic establishment that put their thumbs on the scale to nominate Clinton over Sanders.

Nail on the head. And I can't help but think there are some lessons here for the labour party.

There is a strong argument that this would be the ideal move for the UK - even more so with if you threw Canada, Australia etc. Into the mix

Existing cultural ties, No language barriers, similar education and legal systems, highly developed science and technical fields. FUll of win

Im not sure they want to be part of the empire any more 😉

so we'd be very much the jr partner, kind of like Greece in the EU

Culturally we'd be poorer for it.

BUt look how much Richer they would be 😀

BUt look how much Richer they would be

A very valid point. They suffer greatly from not being able to easily move to different countries and work. As will we from 2019, THANKS BREXIT.

I thought you were against moving between countries ninfan..?

"And I can't help but think there are some lessons here for the labour party."

The other way round. Labour party members voted for the change that was necessary, for the party to continue as viable. Labour are at long last, starting to represent something different to the same old same old that people are sick of. Hilary just represents the same privileged elites that people have had enough of.

This whole mess has been created by the establishment elites' failure to throw the majority working classes enough bones.

I keep seeing this, but it's not true, is it? It's "white people" not "working class people": the overwhelming majority of black Americans voted for Clinton.

🙂

http://newsthump.com/2016/11/09/us-to-replace-national-anthem-with-the-benny-hill-theme/

I think comparing the electoral college position and the popular vote position is interesting.

Trump clearly wins the electoral college vote, but is currently behind on the popular vote.

More people (about 35,000) have been counted so far as voting for Clinton than Trump.

If it had been the Brexit referendum he'd be losing at present - which he isn't.

But it's worth thinking about when considering referenda and democracy.

The kid on skys live feed is pretty funny

I thought you were against moving between countries ninfan..?

Easy there moly, almost called him a racist 😉

"the overwhelming majority of black Americans voted for Clinton."

They are in a minority compared to whites though. And the point stands; many non-white working class people will have voted for Trump, the same way similar people voted for Brexit .

The other way round. Labour party members voted for the change that was necessary, for the party to continue as viable.

I agree, I should have said that there are lessons here for the labour party establishment as currently represented by the PLP.

But wouldn't that necessarily mean reducing armed forces spending?

A massive reduction.

But it looks like he might be (by accident) in line to benefit from a reduction.

Also, even returning to post WWI levels (somewhat isolationist), he would benefit.

[url= http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/defense_spending ]Quick Google.[/url]

Edit: Man alive! Haven't they spent a lot on defence!

They are in a minority compared to whites though. And the point stands; many non-white working class people will have voted for Trump, the same way similar people voted for Brexit .

And the percentage of minority working class people voting for Trump was?

Similarly, Brexit: very strong "remain" areas include some of the poorest districts in the whole of the UK.

I'm afraid this is far more complicated and nuanced than a simple explanation of an uprising by working class people.

I think comparing the electoral college position and the popular vote position is interesting.

Trump clearly wins the electoral college vote, but is currently behind on the popular vote.

It's the same problem as our FPTP system: the outcome is always decided by a small number of swing states or constituencies.

complicated and nuanced

Steady with that kinda talk. Everything's simple from here-on in! 😀

Ransos - actually I prefer FPTP to referenda

@molgrips, Not at all, never have been - and I never really had any concerns with the status quo of the EU pre-accession/expansion since the inequities between countries (both culturally and financially) were fairly minor. when the EU policy became driven by corporations seeking to drive expansion into former WP nations for the sake of cheap labour then it was only ever going to go wrong though.

You hit on it above when you pointed out that a US free trade deal with the UK wouldn't have the same effects as NAFTA - EU expansion was, IMO, very similar to NAFTA, and in many ways the US relationship with Mexico has parroted the 'Western' EU countries relationship with the 'East'

Ransos - actually I prefer FPTP to referenda

Referendums can be a lousy instrument - they can only ever be a simple question and are often used to determine something very complex. As we have seen with Brexit, the vote tells us nothing about what the arrangements should be: for example we could have completely open borders without contravening it.

But equally, FPTP or the electoral college is a lousy way of electing a government or president.

igm - Member

I think comparing the electoral college position and the popular vote position is interesting.

Trump clearly wins the electoral college vote, but is currently behind on the popular vote.

More people (about 35,000) have been counted so far as voting for Clinton than Trump.

What's really interesting about that, is that a lot of forecasts suggested it'd be exactly the other way round- so watch for people who were happy with that, being outraged when it happens this way round.

his whole mess has been created by the establishment elites' failure to throw the majority working classes enough bones.

It is quite interesting how the word [i]"elite"[/i] is becoming an insult, along with [i]"expert"[/i] and [i]"liberal"[/i].

Probably says quite a lot about the political mood.

(Don't mean to pick on that particular post, it's just a recent example on this thread)

Nigel Farage. The patron saint of arseholes?

It is quite interesting how the word "elite" is becoming an insult, along with "expert" and "liberal".

Yes, we saw it with the recent judgement on Article 50. Apparently the judges are "elite". Well, duh! I'd say they're pretty much the textbook definition of "elite", and why would we not want them to be?

igm - Member
Ransos - actually I prefer FPTP to referenda

they're not mutually exclusive...

(or are they? can a referendum have more than 2 options? - are they binary by definition?)

havent checked back through this thread, but am I alone in being amused at the music after Trump spoke

"You dont always get what you want/wish for"

As lady on news just noted, the press and polls consistently missed the story of a lifetime.

so it is a wig or not?

so it is a wig or not?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37862521

Amongst other things that DT's pledged in the first 100 days is: "Repealing every Obama executive order".

Is that practical?

EU expansion was, IMO, very similar to NAFTA

That is a plausible argument that deserves discussion.

It is quite interesting how the word "elite" is becoming an insult, along with "expert" and "liberal".

Probably because a small minority of people have established themselves at the top of the pile and created a fundamentally different set of rules by which they abide. Rules which entrench their position at the expense of pretty much everyone else.

I'm all for expertise and a dose of social liberalism - elitism not so much.

"You dont always get what you want/wish for"

As lady on news just noted, the press and polls consistently missed the story of a lifetime.

That's precisely what I mean jamj1974.

The word "elite" has become a loaded insult. The fact that you equate it with ignoring rules and stepping on other people demonstrates exactly that.

Somewhat ironic that a white, corporate, multi billionaire that steamrollers everything in his path is seen as the man of the people.

Or is it just me?

Somewhat ironic that a white, corporate, multi billionaire that steamrollers everything in his path is seen as the man of the people.

Or is it just me?

The point may have been made once or twice 😉

But it's Brexit writ large, isn't it.

Yes. Only a billionare could sell himself as a man of the people. **** off Trump you nob.

Somewhat ironic that a white, corporate, multi billionaire that steamrollers everything in his path is seen as the man of the people.

Or is it just me?

Same as Farage innit?

Step 1: always be pictured with a suitably "working class" accessory no matter how incongruous or forced it looks. In the UK a pint of beer is good, in the US a baseball cap works well.

Step 2: say very un-PC things that upset "the establishment" to demonstrate how very different you are to them.

Step 3: make outrageous pledges that you can't possibly keep and have no intention of keeping.

Step 4: turn every criticism of your pledges into further evidence that you are outside "the establishment".

Step 5: win.

It's normally way outside of what I would say but in this case Ben afflick and some melons, go on fella go on

[quote=jamj1974 ]It is quite interesting how the word "elite" is becoming an insult, along with "expert" and "liberal".
Probably because a small minority of people have established themselves at the top of the pile and created a fundamentally different set of rules by which they abide. Rules which entrench their position at the expense of pretty much everyone else.
I'm all for expertise and a dose of social liberalism - elitism not so much.

And a guy worth $3.7 billion isn't elite?

He's a man of the people?

Will there be hat trick? 😀

Brexit 1

Trump 1

EU system = ? Still around in the next 5 to 10 years? Me hope to see EU system gone in me lifetime but me actually want it gone in the next 5 years.

[quote=outofbreath > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37862521
Amongst other things that DT's pledged in the first 100 days is: "Repealing every Obama executive order".
Is that practical?

Here's Obama's executive orders

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_executive_orders_13489_and_above

EU system = ? Still around in the next 5 to 10 years? Me hope to see EU system gone in me lifetime but me actually want it gone in the next 5 years.

amj1974 » It is quite interesting how the word "elite" is becoming an insult, along with "expert" and "liberal".
Probably because a small minority of people have established themselves at the top of the pile and created a fundamentally different set of rules by which they abide. Rules which entrench their position at the expense of pretty much everyone else.
I'm all for expertise and a dose of social liberalism - elitism not so much.
And a guy worth $3.7 billion isn't elite?

He's a man of the people?

And if a vote for Trump was an "anti-Elite" vote then more people voted against Trump. So are more than 50% of American voters a part of the elite? Mind you, it's just the same as Brexit. A tiny majority is interpreted as the singular "will of the people" and a blow for the elite (48%) by the normal hard-working folk (52%).

I hope in my lifetime we will have no borders, have no national interest only that of the planet we all inhabit.

Can't argue with that - just hope you have a long time left to live...

mikewsmith - Member
I hope in my lifetime we will have no borders, have no national interest only that of the planet we all inhabit.

But in your/our life time we shall witness EU bureaucratic system being dismantled that I am sure of ...

to get to that situation so long as no one hijack it while getting there.

I hope in my lifetime we will have no borders, have no national interest only that of the planet we all inhabit.

If we are invaded by Aliens we may all come together as one human race. Until that day we'll fight among ourselves as that's what we do.

I'm not sure the vote for Trump was a vote against the elite as much as it was sticking a great big middle finger up to the rest of the World: The World that brought them ISIS, Russia, North Korea etc. Clinton, as Secretary of State, was seen as the link between the USA and a very bad World, out to get America and all it's citizen's freedoms.

The paranoia is rubbish, of course, but never underestimate the power of fear.

mikewsmith - Member
the usual suspects keep trying too.

TMH the next line is something like "but you get what you NEED" .. Democrats haven't got what they wanted but what they need ?

@clod I agree with your sentiments on Clinton. We all felt Trump couldn't win a year ago but the fact is Clinton is so corrupt and dishonest she was no match for him.

As for popular vote Trump has been solidly ahead where he needs to be, who cares he lost heavily in CA and NY ? That's the voting system. On nuances some interesting stats, Trump did better than Mitt Romney in 2012 with Hispanic vote, white women favoured Trump over Clinton, black voters backed Clinton 90 vs 10 but I do wonder about turnout now Obama is gone, white non college educated men where heavily Trump but instead of insulting them as "stupid" its an indication they felt the globalised economy has failed people in modestly paying jobs.

Clinton is so corrupt

This was never satisfactorily explained to me. She been taking bribes or something? The emails don't seem to indicate corruption do they?

jambalaya - Member
...the globalised economy has failed people in modestly paying jobs...

...who have the misfortune to live in a rich country where no effort at all is made to re-distribute the wealth.

What @mickey says. The US had to be dragged into WW2 in Europe by Churchill, there is a very real sense in the US that the rest of the world expects them to be the military police (3.6% gdp spend on defence) and then spends the whole time whinning about their involvement. I strongly suspect if/when the US scales back it's intervention those complaining now will be shouting even more loudly about human rights abuses etc. I have posted before I think our defense spending should be more like 3% than 2%

I posted a list in responce to @mike's question about 4 things Trump would be good for and getting NATO members to pull their weight financially is one of them

We all felt Trump couldn't win a year ago but the fact is Clinton is so corrupt and dishonest she was no match for him.

I hope in my lifetime we will have no borders, have no national interest only that of the planet we all inhabit

Amen to that.

But its clearly not going to "just" happen as we have seen what we are up against with Brexit and Trump.

We now need to make it happen. Fight fire with fire.

who cares he lost heavily in CA and NY

Seeing as they are the 1st and 2rd biggest tax revenue providers, they might.

Not true at all ahwiles

But if the rust belt think that isolationism and Trump are the answers they are in for a rude shock

Protest votes only go so far.

Least we now know how the world felt about us and Brexit and how when you're in it it seems different. Easy to criticise from a far about stupid voters...but that is how the majority of the world thought about UK citizens and their Brexit vote.

Molgrips the whole Clinton Foundation thing .... Clinton has demonstrated again and again she is for sale. She will say ANYTHING for votes and money. I call that corrupt.

Trump's campaign have said they will not rule out a special prosecutor for Clinton. I suspect there is a mass of "IT server bleaching going on" and movement of records out of the US.

US had to be dragged into WW2 in Europe by Churchill,

I think Hitler declaring war on the US was the trigger. Part of a pact with the Empire of Japan, I think.

Do you make this sh1t up for fun?

but that is how the majority of the world thought about UK citizens and their Brexit vote.

That's daft. Support for something similar to Brexit is strong in Europe never mind in the ROTW. There is no other trading region in the world with freedom of movement, a massive budget and a law making Parliament. The EU is a one-off no one is trying to emulate. The only comparison is the USA and they had a civil war to get there, it is the vision of the EU to be a superstate - that is the project which is why we are getting out

Trump's campaign have said they will not rule out a special prosecutor for Clinton. I suspect there is a mass of "IT server bleaching going on" and movement of records out of the US.

Clinton has demonstrated again and again she is for sale. She will say ANYTHING for votes and money. I call that corrupt.