Donald! Trump!

"I worked in market research for many years, and I know that it's absolute bullshit. Unreliable to the point of fraud!"

Useful insight, thanks.

I think you underestimate radical Islam, 911, Iraq and Afghanistan. Certainly had more direct impact on my family's current generation(s) than the cold war ever did.

Fair point.

Despite all his non Christian traits, Trump won 85% of the evangelical votes !

Maybe they really did think Hilary was an actual demon !

How long before the White House is renamed to include brand Trump?

..the WhitesOnly House?

However this is probably down to neo-liberalism started by The in the early 80s. The principle that lets rich people walk all over the poor.

Fingers crossed this leads to a socialist revolution in the US and UK. I'll piss my pants if it does

You can see how this has happened and I for one find it very insulting when people use the terms; thick, stupid, racist ... They maybe that in your eyes, but maybe you should stop and reflect as to how you would feel if you stepped into their shoes, before passing judgement.

Just for the record. I personally would not have voted for either of them.

captainsasquatch - Member

People, on the other hand, seem to be gullible idiots that will believe any bullcrap that's fed to them.

Hit the nail on the head

For me the biggest lesson here is how out of touch many political parties are with the mood of the people.

When the mood of the people is driven by racism and looking for others to blame for their problems, governments are supposed to add some sense to that and not go along with it.

Who will the people blame in 5 years time when we are out of the EU and Trump has had a term and they are in a worse position than they are today ?
Their problems are down to bad government policies affecting the poor and not down to immigration or religion.
The better off in society will continue to be better off whoever is in power.

Notter - Member

I didn't hear her ask HOW exactly he was going to make America great again, or what that actually means. Did I miss it?

It means the same as us "taking our country back" from the EU. All clear now?

In fairness to him he does have a plan.

He's going to use a mix of 'trickle down economics' and restrictive trade laws to increase productivity in the US.

The former has been disproven time and time again. Give Billionaires more money and they'll keep it, but the latter is a policy straight out of the Old Labour handbook, jobs over profits, or 'inefficiency' as the centre right usually call it.

The policies aren't usually compatible - Corporations and Shareholders don't care about workers, their dissociation from the core work of their businesses/investments removes any empathy for their workers. So, if they can make a few % more by closing a factory in the West and open one in the East, that's what they'll do. Restricting their ability to do that and even reversing it won't play well with his rich friends. It could all be hot air, but if this more than centre right politician really does do it - then the core beliefs of Right and Left really have switched in a generation or two.

You wrote:

There are far too many (this forum especially), who are most likely middle class earning a decent wage who are unable to see anything other than their own viewpoint

... and

I for one find it very insulting when people use the terms; thick, stupid

What is the [i]exact [/i]level of household income that means your suddenly blind to the problems of current economics?

Is this only something the low/no wage can see?

Enlighten me.

You can see how this has happened and I for one find it very insulting when people use the terms; thick, stupid, racist .

If you think that Trump (or the Brexiteers) is doing this for the little guy rather than their own huge egos & racists beliefs then, Im sorry but I will say you are being stupid.

If that was the case you'd be much better off voting for socialists like Corbyn or Sanders

"Their problems are down to bad government policies affecting the poor"

Which is EXACTLY what Trump says he can fix and he has said how.

We might not think it's workable but working class yanks of all races clearly think it's worth a punt.

I for one find it very insulting when people use the terms; thick, stupid, racist ... They maybe that in your eyes, but maybe you should stop and reflect as to how you would feel if you stepped into their shoes, before passing judgement.

That's patronising, isn't it?

You're saying that simply being poor and downtrodden means you shouldn't be expected to think about and understand exactly why this might be?

It's also somewhat insulting to assume that simply because some STWers make good money they aren't capable of understanding the plight of the poor. Or in fact that they haven't been poor themselves or from a poor background. Or know anyone poor.

I wonder how much (potential) money the Clintons just waved goodbye to?

We might not think it's workable but working class yanks of all races clearly think it's worth a punt.

I can see if you (think) you got nuthin' you ain't got much to loose.

But...

He said stuff [b]HE'D[/b] do, but it seems (to me and few others) HE has dismissed the fact that others inside and especially outside the US might not "go along" with what he wants to do.

Currently the same here - UK and coming to Europe soon.

Change for the good has, and always be, dull, slow, and sometime uncomfortable.

Change for change sake, seem to pretty much end in a massive conflict.

Think about your grandparents reading the reports of Hitler rising to power; or your parents watching news reports about nuclear missiles on boats, and how they must have felt. Be prepared for some bad shit to go down.

Like many others, they were able to put aside national differences after the war. I learned a lot growing up about what they had been through. Here we are 70 years on destroying bridges which have been built and putting up walls.

I take some comfort in Trump appearing to be isolationist, so maybe not interested in throwing hie weight around internationally. I'm also inclined to think he will be a puppet of congress and senate, so let's see how it pans out. I think there will be a lot of disappointed Trump voters in a year or two when absolutely nothing has changed.

So whats he going to do first?
Relax gun control
Imprison Clinton
Ditch NATO
End trade deals with China, Mexico and Canada.
Deport all 11million illegal Mexicans.
Ban Muslims from entering America
Imprison women who have abortions
Put all mosques under surveillance
Build a **** off wall along the border
Cancel the Paris climate deal ( coz global warming is a hoax, obvs)
End the peace deal with Iran
Bomb the 'shit' out of Islamic state
Dunno the affordable care act
Encourage Japan and Korea to develop nuclear arsenals ?

What did I miss?

Just like Brexit calling your opponents racists and stupid hasn't worked out well has it ?

Good post slowoldman. To us youngsters I suspect that that feels like ancient history. Keep it alive.

I think there will be a lot of disappointed Trump voters in a year or two when absolutely nothing has changed.

That's my hope. Things will get worse under Trump and with Brexit, and eventually we'll realise that the emperor has no clothes, that that kind of bullshit is just that, and we'll build something better.

Just like Brexit calling your opponents racists and stupid hasn't worked out well has it ?

A lot of people are stupid and racist. That's inarguable. Sure, there might be intelligent considered Brumpers but there are also stupid racist ones. If the intelligent ones can come out with good arguments, we'll be all ears. What we're screaming for is proper debate, and that's what we don't get.

"If that was the case you'd be much better off voting for socialists like Corbyn"

Err, A big chunk of Trumps plan is a carbon copy of Corbyns - spend like crazy on infrastructure.

Change for the good has, and always be, dull, slow, and sometime uncomfortable.

Change for change sake, seem to pretty much end in a massive conflict.

Haven't seen too much change for the good over the last 20 years. I voted Brexit not for much other than a vote to protest against and hopefully shake up the system (I really didn't believe we'd [i]win[/i] 😕 )
I can totally understand the same happening in the US, plus the folk who actually believe they'll get a different shot at things.

spend like crazy on infrastructure

That'll never get through either house.

[img] [/img]

...we all need to take a step back, chill-out and relax!

@kimbers so ething from the BBC on what now ..

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37918242

I for one hope Trump does insist NATO members meet their 2% spending commitment. Whilst many here rile against US intervention I think the Trump alternative of a greater domestic focus will have many consequencies they have ignored.

I think Trump will start deporting illegal aliens. I think he may very well abolish NAFTA and impose significant trade tariffs on Mexico and China. A tax and/or passport id check could well be introduced on mkney transfers via companies like Western Union. Combined with tariffs this will pay for border control / "building the wall"

Haven't seen too much change for the good over the last 20 years.

He said it was slow.

We're at last [i]beginning[/i] to take the environment seriously. That's a good change.

And living standards are higher than they were 30, 40 years ago.

That's patronising, isn't it?

You're saying that simply being poor and downtrodden means you shouldn't be expected to think about and understand exactly why this might be?

It's also somewhat insulting to assume that simply because some STWers make good money they aren't capable of understanding the plight of the poor. Or in fact that they haven't been poor themselves or from a poor background. Or know anyone poor.

jambalaya - Member
Just like Brexit calling your opponents racists and stupid hasn't worked out well has it ?

Indeed, we should be explaining to them why they are beeing racist and stupid

Well the markets seem to have calmed down a little, word from my end of the system is trading will be all about profit takers yet the Instruments Markets will continue to see through the noise.

Not too bad, yet so it seems.

A lot of people are stupid and racist. That's inarguable. Sure, there might be intelligent considered Remoaners but there are also stupid racist ones. If the intelligent ones can come out with good arguments, we'll be all ears. What we're screaming for is proper debate, and that's what we don't get.

Corrected that for you.

Far from it. I am saying that too many folk sit in their little ivory towers unable to grasp the viewpoint of others.

Does that not cut both ways?

From comments made on this forum it would appear that far too many struggle to grasp an opposing viewpoint to their own without condemning with derogatory regard.

Maybe they condemn it BECAUSE they grasp it? I may respect your right to hold your opinion, but that doesn't mean I have to respect it. Sometimes people are actually wrong, you know.

I admit though that the vitriolic language from some forumites is so divisive as to make things much worse, rather than better. If you disagree with someone you should talk it through and make your points. Ranting just alienates people.

Corrected that for you.

The intelligent ones are coming out with good arguments. Well, most of us. We're not being engaged though. Look at Jam - an intelligent leaver - he gives us a weak line then goes quiet when it gets questioned. I wish he wouldn't.

Just like Brexit calling your opponents racists and stupid hasn't worked out well has it ?

@the-muffin 🙂 didn't work out for JD though did it. Our concern is that Karthik is now President

Indeed, we should be explaining to them why they are racist and stupid

Don't call me racist, you have no idea about me other than the fact I voted pro Brexit. That kind of mindless abuse would not be tolerated on any other thread.

Look at Jam - an intelligent leaver - he gives us a weak line then goes quiet when it gets questioned. I wish he wouldn't.

For another thread 🙂 I have posted (far too) many words on Brexit, as for going quiet that's not something I get accused of very often and not a comment I can let pass.

kebouy - Member
Whilst I sit on the loo absorbing the news, I'm gastflabbered at the result.
It's a very strange world we live in where being a racist, homophobic, narcissistic, bully, misogynistic false tan wearing, grab you by the pussy is now ok and how we should all live.
It democracy has been seen to be done, so almost half of the world thinks that way.
I'm once again forced to look at my friends and colleagues and question whether I like them or not.
Interesting times.

I think a lot of that was spun way way out of proportion by the corrupt msm.. maybe people might wake up and realise now having to admit they were lieing about the polls. Not saying he's perfect however. You get Michelle Obama crying about how he disrespects woman while she has her friends jayz and the like at the white house, rappers who sing about drugs, rapping woman, disrespecting woman.. Come to think of it, didn't jayzee also support Hillary Clinton at one of her rally's 😆

People are seeing through all this shit now, everything being spun for the for the globalists and deluded folk still listen to MSN likes its gospel, most English speaking news outlets being funded by the elites .. So call them names if you feel better, call them racists, homophobic, thick stupid twunts but in the end they've only been given the choice of two too vote for 'that will count'
And yes I wear a tinfoil hat thank you 8)

Indeed, we should be explaining to them why they are racist and stupid

Don't call me racist

😀

For another thread I have posted (far too) many words on Brexit, as for going quiet that's not something I get accused of very often and not a comment I can let pass.

Then engage the debate!

We post a question, you answer, we query the answer and you say nothing.

"Relax gun control
Imprison Clinton
Ditch NATO
End trade deals with China, Mexico and Canada.
Deport all 11million illegal Mexicans.
Ban Muslims from entering America
Imprison women who have abortions
Put all mosques under surveillance
Build a **** off wall along the border
Cancel the Paris climate deal ( coz global warming is a hoax, obvs)
End the peace deal with Iran
Bomb the shit out of IS
Encourage Japan and Korea to develop nuclear arsenals ?"

According to his acceptance speech, none of the above. Unless he mentioned it at the end after it got so boring and irrelevant R4 switched him off.

The special relationship is still going strong, it's now - dumb and dumber

Well thankfully, the US and all of the other nations have the ability to elect whoever the hell they want, and not seek approval from a microcosm of UK mountain bikers.
I despise Trump, utterly hate the man. But. I respect democracy (with no provisos) in the same way I do self-determination (see scotland and the falklands)
Why did this happen? Does anyone really believe that the americans who voted in Obama only 4 years ago have turned into loony fascists? It's the same demographic, so blaming old people and saying that young [i]educated[/i] (insinuating that old people are stupid? ***k off) people fought it is brainless.
You can't blame Trump, a snake is going to behave like a snake.

The problem is that there are a huge number of people who properly despise Hillary. The patriots (and there are a lot) hate her. Those who have no wish to see rich born legacy family presidents hate her (they have had enough of the bush family). The proof is plain to see in the result.

If anyone is to blame, it was the DNC who plainly pushed Hilary ahead of Sanders, effectively ruining his chances of running. Debbie Wassermann Schultz had a big hand in this.
And now, I'm listening to some american on TV crying her eyes out. WTH is wrong with people? Get a bloody grip.

martinhutch - Member
Indeed, we should be explaining to them why they are racist and stupid
Don't call me racist

I'm not too happy with 'stupid' but can live with it. I'm very unhappy with racist being the default insult.

Don't call me racist, you have no idea about me other than the fact I voted pro Brexit. That kind of mindless abuse would not be tolerated on any other thread.

THiS. When you call your opponents racist and/or stupid you just harden their resolve, you ensure they will not cross back over to "your side". I saw this first hand when doing street stalls for Vote Leave.

As I have said before when mainstream parties do not address issues like immigration then they leave a gaping hole for more extreme views to fill.

"Hello Donald it's Theresa

Yes Theresa may PM of the UK

Congratulations on becoming president"

has to smart first having to do that then realising your on his do I give a shit list.

"Which part of calling opponents who are racist and stupid is wrong?"

The part where that strategy allows the guy you think is racist to win by a country mile.

"When you call your opponents racist and/or stupid you just harden their resolve, you ensure they will not cross back over to "your side"."

This. Campaigns need to win support, not alienate it.

I wonder how much (potential) money [s]the Clintons[/s] James Comey just waved [s]goodbye[/s] hello to?

Those who have no wish to see rich born legacy family presidents hate her (they have had enough of the bush family). The proof is plain to see in the result.

What, by voting for Trump?
The only thing that changed was that they chose red sauce over blue for their shit sandwiches.
The winner of this election was (as it was also the case for brexit) the one to persuade the apathetic non voter to vote.

Anyone who declarers themselves "not racist" [i]is[/i] stupid.

It's not something you can "self describe".

It's an attribute that is subjective to the 3rd party.

You think those Nazi's dropping in the zyklon described themselves as "nasty, racist, rightwingers"?

FFS

This. Campaigns need to win support, not alienate it.

Campaigns need to win support, not alienate it.

That's where Hilary failed. Every time she appeared on TV, I pleaded with her to give me some policy. Zilch, nothing. She just slagged off Trump and appeared a grade A sour-faced... . Thus alienating herself from peole who might have gone and voted for her but instead stayed at home.

Brexit and Trump same rules apply -
Rich folks get a lot richer and protected
Poor folks get a lot poorer and vulnerable

I actually used to give a * about this (as late as last May June ish) now i could not give a *

The great unwashed (of which I am a fully paid up member) has supported both these causes and now they will pay the price.

I am by no means financially or physically bullet proof but the fact is people will have to starve to death in the UK before most of us really start to struggle.

Now we wait for Marine Le Pen to rise from the **** a proper "not in the closet" racist.

As my 85 year old Father observed i have seen this before...

What, by voting for Trump?

Brexit and Trump same rules apply -

Anyone who declarers themselves "not racist" is stupid.

It's not something you can "self describe".

It's an attribute that is subjective to the 3rd party.

You think those Nazi's dropping in the zyklon described themselves as "nasty, racist, rightwingers"?

FFS

I'm glad we cleared that up.

As I have said before when mainstream parties do not address issues like immigration

Should they though? Immigration has a net positive for the UK, but a lot of people don't like it. Why do they not like it?

From what I've read, it's because they think that they are costing the country money and taking jobs. But this seems not to be true. So why do people still think it?

Does the government simply not communicate well?

Voting for Brexit is equivalent to gassing jews.
I'm glad we cleared that up.

Not even close to what was said. Not even close.

As my 85 year old Father observed i have seen this before...

Me: It's just like what happened before.

Other: No! we've moved on. Things are different now.

Me: (In head) That's what they said last time, and the time before that.

Or by not voting at all? Perhaps they decided not to partake in either colour shit sandwich?

Opting out of the sauce choice doesn't stop them from still having to eat.
They can sit and have their plain old shit sandwiches alone

Voting for Brexit is equivalent to gassing jews.

I'm glad we cleared that up.

Glad your onboard! 😀

molgrips - Member

Should they though?

yes.

at least address the logistics.

(we need to build millions of houses, and associated power, water, gas, schools, transports, healthcare, etc. infrastructure. no-one even mentions it)

Opting out of the sauce choice doesn't stop them from still having to eat.

Given he deserves no respect, I refuse to use the official title of President ****puffin I will use my own title of President Shit-Gibbon.

"Relax gun control
Imprison Clinton
Ditch NATO
End trade deals with China, Mexico and Canada.
Deport all 11million illegal Mexicans.
Ban Muslims from entering America
Imprison women who have abortions
Put all mosques under surveillance
Build a **** off wall along the border
Cancel the Paris climate deal ( coz global warming is a hoax, obvs)
End the peace deal with Iran
Bomb the shit out of IS
Encourage Japan and Korea to develop nuclear arsenals ?"

According to his acceptance speech, none of the above. Unless he mentioned it at the end after it got so boring and irrelevant R4 switched him off.

But this is what he does. Just says whatever people want to hear. He knew the world was listening...

EDIT - just to add - there are things that he says and things that he will do. Don't assume they will be consistent...

I think we are seeing a great swell of people effectively flicking V's to what they perceive to be the Establishment in the only way they can these days, through the ballot box.
Yes Trumps just as much of the establishment as Clinton, but he doesn't come across as such so that's basically what has to do, just like Farage and Brexit.
You can argue what you like but in the last 20 years we have swung between Labour/Democrat and Tory/Republican but what has really changed, nothing, they just kept interest rates low and credit easy so that we thought that we were feeding from the same trough as them, we were not.

"But this is what he does. Just says whatever people want to hear."

Yup. Small parties have been doing it for years. Big parties tend not to because they know they look stupid if they get in and fail to do what they promised.

Should they though? Immigration has a net positive for the UK, but a lot of people don't like it. Why do they not like it?

As it stands at the moment, although Trump is massively ahead in the college electoral votes, he's only actually ahead by 326,115 votes. That's 0.1% of a population of 300,000,000 or 0.3% of the total votes for Clinton and Trump.

There's enough margin for error there to make this highly contentious

A disturbing read...

“I put lipstick on a pig,” he said. “I feel a deep sense of remorse that I contributed to presenting Trump in a way that brought him wider attention and made him more appealing than he is.” He went on, “I genuinely believe that if Trump wins and gets the nuclear codes there is an excellent possibility it will lead to the end of civilization.”

[url= http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all ]http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all[/url]

Probably not, but it saves some dignity whilst having to do so.

True that, but the enlightened 'none of the above' or abstainees didn't decide the outcome. The ones that don't usually vote simply because it changes nothing in their lives had their buttons pushed.

Should they though? Immigration has a net positive for the UK, but a lot of people don't like it. Why do they not like it?

My point exactly. Positive effect for who?

What about the 'racist, stupid' brexit voter who struggles to find work because of the said beneficial immigration.

You struggle to grasp that for some it is not positive.

True that, but the enlightened 'none of the above' or abstainees didn't decide the outcome.

I'm not too happy with 'stupid' but can live with it. I'm very unhappy with racist being the default insult.

Im sorry eddiebaby, I equated voting for a racist with being a racist, which isnt true
However, even if you dont agree with all of what they say you are still supporting them

especially when the referendum 'debate' featured racism from prominent leavers and pro leave media

Immigration has a net positive for the UK, but a lot of people don't like it. Why do they not like it?

let's go and stand at different ends of the swimming pool, don't worry if you can't swim, its only three feet deep on average.

My point exactly. Positive effect for who?

What about the 'racist, stupid' brexit voter who struggles to find work because of the said beneficial immigration.

You struggle to grasp that for some it is not positive.

I would say they are scapegoating the wrong people for their unemployment because they are thick enough to believe racist demagogues?

There is little evidence that more migrants push wages down or unemployment up. Economists from the Centre for Economic Performance at the London School of Economics say that when they look at the areas with the largest increase in EU immigration, these have not seen the sharpest falls in employment or wages since 2008.

Jonathan Wadsworth, one of the authors of the CEP report and a former member of the government’s Migration Advisory Committee, says: “There is still no evidence of an overall negative impact of immigration on jobs, [or] wages.

https://www.ft.com/content/0deacb52-178b-11e6-9d98-00386a18e39d

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/brexit/abstract.asp?index=5053

You are really using the wrong example though

you should be asking why the communities and councils that have to support the immigrants dont get a proportionate increase in funding-
That the financial benefits of immigration are not put back into these communities is not the fault of immigration it is the fault of the government.

oldmanmtb - Member
As my 85 year old Father observed i have seen this before...

He must have been an exceptional 2 year old back in 1933! 😆

Immigration has a net positive for the UK, but a lot of people don't like it. Why do they not like it?

Because moving a second family into my house would make it twice as wealthy overnight. (If one of them played a musical instrument there would even be a cultural benefit.) That's a pretty quick way to double my household economy. But would having a second family in my house be good for me? Yes, my house would be twice as wealthy, but do I want that?

Same with my local town. It has to increase by 33pc in the next 18 years. It will become at least 33pc more wealthy. But will it be a better place to live for it? No, it'll be far worse.

Go to work CIA, just like you did with Kennedy! 8)

What about the 'racist, stupid' brexit voter who struggles to find work because of the said beneficial immigration.

Haven't met too many like that.

Met some that are trapped in areas without jobs and no possibility of moving.

Met lazy, nasty bigots who you would trust to do any job.

Met some that thought school was "sh1t" and aren't educated enough to be suitable for jobs.

Met some that had a catastrophic home life and are effectively ruined adults that can't get a job because of failed parenting.

Met some that were in one job and dont have much in the way of easily transferable skills.

But those explicitly prevented from work due to immigration. None.

Back in town, local UKIP councillor Stephen Raven gives a blunt answer why many locals refuse to do the picking and packing agriculture jobs: because "we're lazy".

My point exactly. Positive effect for who?

What about the 'racist, stupid' brexit voter who struggles to find work because of the said beneficial immigration.

You struggle to grasp that for some it is not positive.

It is positive for the country as a whole. Who and how many people are actually struggling to find work because of immigration? I would guess you don't have the numbers.

But the numbers don't matter when you can put the idea into peoples heads which they then believe and then back you in the polls.

I might have to (sadly) cross Finland off my list of places to move in 2 years' time.

You could always move to Russia instead 😉

But the numbers don't matter when you can put the idea into peoples heads which they then believe and then back you in the polls.

Post truth politics. It doesn't matter if it's all a load of bollocks if you can get people to believe it. And it's actually easier to sell complete bollocks because you don't have any inconvenient bits.

A lesson there for all politicians, one I'm sure they'll mostly pick up on. It does mean democracy is broken, because the fundamental principles of democracy are deeper than one man one vote. If those votes can be bought through lies, then the system really is rigged.

You Maniacs!!

[img] [/img]

Same with my local town. It has to increase by 33pc in the next 18 years. It will become at least 33pc more wealthy. But will it be a better place to live for it? No, it'll be far worse.

Why? Is it the fault of the immigrants, or the people who won't plan for the expansion and invest?

let's go and stand at different ends of the swimming pool, don't worry if you can't swim, its only three feet deep on average.

A needlessly sarcastic way to make the point that the benefit is not spread evenly. But why not? Why not manage it properly for the benefit of all? Why not mitigate the downsides and gain the benefits?

Simply blaming the immigrants is wrong, imo. And it's too easy to do, because they stand out because they are foreign.

What about the 'racist, stupid' brexit voter who struggles to find work because of the said beneficial immigration.

If there weren't immigrants, the economy would be smaller and there wouldn't be as many jobs. Immigrants shop at Tesco, they have bank accounts and put money in them. They do jobs, their companies get the revenue from the jobs they do.

For sure there are disadvantaged people, but it's not BECAUSE of the immigrants, it's because the government stand back and don't bother managing things properly.

"Post truth politics. It doesn't matter if it's all a load of bollocks if you can get people to believe it."

They don't have to believe it.

They just have to think you're more effective than the other candidate.

So Trumps says he'll double growth. Nobody believes it but they think "If he promises to double it he might increase it slightly whereas Clinton won't."