You mean like rather than banning all Muslims, instead targeting it against the six countries already identified by the department for homeland security and government as being the biggest risks, and requiring additional visa controls?
Well he didn't target the county which was clearly identified in Section 1 of the Executive Order:
Section 1. Purpose. The visa-issuance process plays a crucial role in detecting individuals with terrorist ties and stopping them from entering the United States. Perhaps in no instance was that more apparent than the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, when State Department policy prevented consular officers from properly scrutinizing the visa applications of several of the 19 foreign nationals who went on to murder nearly 3,000 Americans.
It's all a bit of a muddle, innit?
Almost as if the guys in charge have zero in the way of experience of running anything other than a hotel or a TV show.
As if ignoring the wealth of expertise they have at their disposal and firing off Executive Orders scribbled on the back of a beer mat was ever going to end well.
"So lets get to the crux of the matter, why do you feel a draconian ban due to irrational paranoia is acceptable?"
Straw man. I think it's an utterly stupid and needless policy and on top of that the almost complete lack of consideration of detail is inept.
Maybe he is going for viewing figures as opposed to opinion/satisfaction polls.
so what point you trying to make by trying to back up ninfan?outofbreath - Member
"So lets get to the crux of the matter, why do you feel a draconian ban due to irrational paranoia is acceptable?"Straw man. I think it's an utterly stupid and needless policy and on top of that the almost complete lack of consideration of detail is inept.
km79 has it. When do the phone lines open?
then why the pithy comments
Banning then from Disneyland for 90 days is taken far more seriously by the West, and far less seriously by Militant Islam.
Try being told that you cannot go to the place you live - you know your house. Or maybe that you can't return from holiday as your flight changes in JFK or maybe that the visa you got is now no longer valid for absolutly no reason.
IS can sit back and say to people how much the US hates you now, in these countries especially. Those not on the list can now be targeted as being US friends/special cases. It's a mess.
Just leave him to it on those points, when that's the best response he can mount he's more or less arguing for the other side.
Meanwhile, it turns out that Trump's plan to take on ISIS, which he talked about so much during the election campaign, is to tell someone else to make a plan to take on ISIS. I remember thinking at the time it was like Josh's Secret Plan To Fight Inflation
Meanwhile, it turns out that Trump's plan to take on ISIS, which he talked about so much during the election campaign, is to tell someone else to make a plan to take on ISIS.
And give them 30 days, or else.
Or else what?
Or else what?
your in the first wave "Mad Dog"
*waves at Mad Dog*
Trumps half baked anti-Muslim ban, does indeed only affect a few countries, but initially including green card citizens and then reversing that, (but not telling immigration staff)
The confusion at airports across the globe.
Order signed on Holocaust memorial day, in a country of proud immigrants.
Staff still ignoring federal court order to stop.
this is what it looks like across the world
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Trump is trying to manage it all be tweeting how unfair the media are being...
Hilary must be sitting at home watching the news with a glass of champagne and a reefer , thinking how the fk did I lose to this guy !
"IS can sit back and say to people how much the US hates you now,"
A few pictures of a dead babys after US air strikes is gonna win about 10 billion times more recruits than preventing people travelling to the States for 90 days.
America has been poking Militant Islam with a big stick for 16 years, I don't think this policy is going to make them any angrier.
He'll give em a good twitter lashing, four years he'll be lucky to see out four weeks.
The viewing figures will be good mind
Hilary must be sitting at home watching the news with a glass of champagne and a reefer , thinking how the fk did I lose to this guy !
That's a thread in itself on the entitlement of political dynasties.
An US air strike in a far away country plays in the hand of ISIS but his executive order is doing a lot more damage to the US reputation in the US itself and the allies countries . Hence all the demonstrations and condamnations .
A few pictures of a dead babys after US air strikes is gonna win about 10 billion times more recruits than preventing people travelling to the States for 90 days.
Of course not. The US government can claim that dead children are the tragic consequence of having to fight a brutal war against IS/terrorists/jihadists but still claim "we want to be your friends".
Saying "we don't want your sort coming over visiting our country" will make the claim "we want to be your friends" a lot less convincing.
He'll give em a good twitter lashing, four years he'll be lucky to see out four weeks.
Vegas bookies have cut the odds on Trump lasting 6 months to 4:1.
It's not no, but why does that make criticising it wrong/trivial in your eyes?outofbreath - Member
America has been poking Militant Islam with a big stick for 16 years, I don't think this policy is going to make them any angrier.
This policy is one of trumps first stupid actions*, it's perfectly right that people react to it with anger. He'll perhaps rethink other equally irrational or worse actions in the future. (If not, least people are getting angry at the right things.)
*worthy of talking about.
"four years he'll be lucky to see out four weeks."
Yup.
La critique est aisée, mais l'art est difficile.
He's been pointing out the flaws from the sidelines for years. Now he's in the spotlight and learning that government isn't easy. I think Corbyn's learning a similar lesson.
It's not as if he is getting challenged in the country..
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-30/attorneys-general-decry-donald-trump-immigration-order/8222182
"I'm actually proud of being Iranian … did I have a criminal record, do I have any problems or do you even care to look at my background?"Or is it just that one word in my passport that's says 'country of citizenship: Iran'."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-30/donald-trump-travel-ban-stops-iranian-scientist-returning-to-us/8222212
at last he has found his phone charger
Donald J. Trump ?@realDonaldTrump 2h2 hours ago
More
The joint statement of former presidential candidates John McCain & Lindsey Graham is wrong - they are sadly weak on immigration. The two...
...Senators should focus their energies on ISIS, illegal immigration and border security instead of always looking to start World War III.
Classy
Now announcing clarification via facebook...
https://www.facebook.com/DonaldTrump/posts/10158567643610725
Really WTAF - get in front of a camera and try and explain it, let people ask you tough questions, have the conviction to defent your policy.
and once again blaming it on someone else , Obama , and of course the media .
What was the stat ? 30% of population of countries like Egypt (relatively moderate) think that 9/11 was conducted by a combination of Israel and the US to "make Muslims look bad and give them an excuse to bomb us". Had the same type of story on mainstream TV that the Russian passenger jet was blown up shot/down by a combination of US/British/Israeli special forces to "make us look bad".
A travel ban isn't going to make much of a difference to public opinion there. Tunisans are killing toirists and joining IS as largest group,of foreign fighters as they where anti the Arab Spring and democracy which they see as fundamentally un-Islamic. America to some (many) is already the great Satan.
As for Trump's ISIS plan US special forces conducted a ground operation against Al-Q in Yemen with 1 US fatality. I imagine the Saudis where pretty happy about the operation/involvement. Maybe his plan for Syria will be to back the Russians and Syrians going in on the ground.
I am sticking with 2 terms. He'll be President till 2024
What was the stat ? 30% of population of countries like Egypt (relatively moderate) think that 9/11 was conducted by a combination of Israel and the US to "make Muslims look bad and give them an excuse to bomb us".
Egypt mysteriously isn't on the list
http://time.com/4629308/donald-trump-business-deals-world-map/#Egypt
I am sticking with 2 terms. He'll be President till 2024
Nah. He'll be dead by then.
That much fake tan just ain't healthy.
What was the stat ? 30% of population of countries like Egypt (relatively moderate) think that 9/11 was conducted by a combination of Israel and the US to "make Muslims look bad and give them an excuse to bomb us". Had the same type of story on mainstream TV that the Russian passenger jet was blown up shot/down by a combination of US/British/Israeli special forces to "make us look bad".A travel ban isn't going to make much of a difference to public opinion there. Tunisans are killing toirists and joining IS as largest group,of foreign fighters as they where anti the Arab Spring and democracy which they see as fundamentally un-Islamic. America to some (many) is already the great Satan.
As for Trump's ISIS plan US special forces conducted a ground operation against Al-Q in Yemen with 1 US fatality. I imagine the Saudis where pretty happy about the operation/involvement. Maybe his plan for Syria will be to back the Russians and Syrians going in on the ground.
Does one really need to ask for a credible sauce or sauces?
The president of America is having a fb and twitter meltdown. wtf
[quote=jambalaya ]I am sticking with 2 terms. He'll be President till 2024
Unless he gets bored first 🙂
How exactly would one go about changing the rules to allow a 3rd term?
outofbreath - MemberA few pictures of a dead babys after US air strikes is gonna win about 10 billion times more recruits than preventing people travelling to the States for 90 days.
I think Ernie makes a good point but it's also different audiences. Getting blown up is something that most people easily file under "won't happen to me". But start arbitrarily banning normal people because of their citizenship (*) and suddenly a huge number of people are touched or see how easily they can be touched, or seeing friends or colleagues that are affected. The US domiciled family guy who suddenly discovers his wife and kids aren't allowed to come home from their trip to the homeland... Lots and lots of small stories to make lots and lots of people furious and plant seeds.
And where that could really hit home is where it's outside the narrative. Khalas, the Iraqi yazidi who worked with US forces as a translator, whose wife just received her Special Immigrant Visa but was turned away when she tried to fly (and now gets to stay in Iraq, as a member of a victimised minority whose husband worked for the US army and is now in America...). Would you work with the US? This will make people distrust them, it'll turn people against them, and they will be [i]right[/i]. It's a knife in the back of people who've risked their lives to help.
(* and possibly place of birth, nobody actually knows right now including US border officials- people born in these countries but holding no citizenship there have been turned away but that doesn't mean they're supposed to be, because the policy has been devised and launched in such a halfassed way.)
(and possibly nationality, at this point who knows, people have been prevented from entering the US
https://twitter.com/seanspicer/status/825565510418968578
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Read before agreeing?
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I thought @realdonald had to be mothballed, and all El Pres tweets had to come from @potus?
There has to be some very worried people on capital hill right now the US has been overlooked by the terror groups in favour of mainland Europe and Now every unhinged terror group will be burning Stars and Stripes even more so after a botched Yemen strike by US sf looks like it killed woman and children and it was given the go ahead by Trump.
One week in folks
So odds for
Trump going due to ill health ( has he got heart issues )
Trump invaids Canadian soil for oil
Gets shot by right wing nutters
Gets shot by left wing nutters
Attacked by hipsters and given a top knot
ah hell he is doing both
https://twitter.com/potus
and retweeting himself
President Trump will easily complete the first term President then he will go on to his second term as President.
As long as jobs are created and unemployment decreases with stronger economy even all his opponents will sing his praise.
They will sell their soul when the see the money ... trust me they will.
"Show me the money ..." as they shout. 😆
As long as jobs are created and unemployment decreases with stronger economy even all his opponents will sing his praise.
President Trump will easily complete the first term President then he will go on to his second term as President.
Swapping those 2 around... so if he doesn't create jobs and growth he won't make it?
Not see a credible plan yet have we.
I do [i]know[/i] that American's aren't stupid.... I really do [i]know[/i] that. But I'm really struggling to reconcile that with what I'm seeing/hearing
His latest one:
To be clear, this is not a Muslim ban, as the media is falsely reporting. This is not about religion - this is about terror and keeping our country safe.
But.... "a total shutdown of all Muslims coming to the united states" was one of his (most powerful) campaign promises. (I know there is a paper-thin pretense about this being based on geography rather than religion) But now he;s saying that's NOT what he's just done?
How gullible are the trumperists? I think we are going to find out in the next few weeks.....
I do know that American's aren't stupid.... I really do know that. But I'm really struggling to reconcile that with what I'm seeing/hearing
Americans aren't stupid, nor is Trump. But what Trump is is a vain attention-seeking egomaniacal showman. He doesn't care how damage he does just as long as his vain attention-seeking egomaniacal needs are satisfied.
He wants to scar the face of the earth with a 30 foot concrete wall which will stretch from the Atlantic coast to the Pacific coast, and which will remain a lasting monument to him for the whole world to notice.
Plastering his name on huge skyscrapers just isn't enough anymore.
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Causing outrage throughout the world whilst simultaneously arousing the adulation of his supporters has a similar effect.
Trump doesn't care if he's screwing America, or the environment, or sowing discord, division, and hatred. But he's not stupid. All he cares about is that his vain attention-seeking egomaniacal needs are satisfied.
^oh I agree.
I do know that American's aren't stupid.... I really do know that. But I'm really struggling to reconcile that with what I'm seeing/hearing
What I can't understand is that his supporters can't see his bare-faced lies and manipulation..... I mean, it's SO obvious but there is a huge (yuge?) section of society that actually believes what he's saying.
He did say that he could walk out in to the middle of times square and shoot somebody.... and he'd still win. I guess that's it for me - where is the line? Whats he going to have to do before these people stop supporting him?
What I can't understand is that his supporters can't see his bare-faced lies and manipulation..... I mean, it's SO obvious but there is a huge (yuge?) section of society that actually believes what he's saying.
Ignoarance and Stupidity are sometimes had to seperate. The media has it's role and in the US it can be exceptionally partisan on the right side, the left has it's faults but in many ways they seem to keep it rational. If you are in the circles that only get your media from one sourece then you are in trouble. It's easier to listen and lap it up rather than look for more detailed explanations.
Don't forget the scale of the US - similar to Australia some people will never see more than 10% of it. All you have to do is convince them of what is going on and that it could happen to them.
The level of fear over 9/11 is still huge is a lot of places, it's above rational also and it's ingrained into the pshcye of a nation in places. Despite the amount of gun crime and violence that goes on every day.
[quote=ernie_lynch ]But he's not stupid.
Indeed - I'm not quite sure why people get confused by that one simply because his motivations are so alien to them.
Though regarding his re-election, he has to appeal to more than his core voters who are the ones lapping all this up (and making all the noise supporting him on social media). He has to also appeal to those who might have voted for Bernie - arguably he has to also hope that whoever the Democrats put forward next time fails to encourage people to come out and vote for them in the way Hillary did. It is worth noting that the latest polls already have his approval rating at 36% (a drop of 8 points from his record low for a president on inauguration), and whilst we're all pretty wary of polls now, the margin of error would have to be huge to get him reelected right now.
I mean, it's SO obvious but there is a huge (yuge?) section of society that actually believes what he's saying.
I suspect that it's probably not quite as big as you might think. It's a fairly accepted fact that many of the people who voted for him did so because he was "different" to other mainstream politicians, and they simply thought that they would "give him a chance".
It's a sad reflection of just how disillusioned people have become with mainstream politics/politicians, something which is by no means unique to the United States and has become prevalent throughout much of the West.
Opinion polls show that his approval ratings for a US president in his honeymoon period are historically low.
Of course just like anywhere else in the world there are stupid people in the US, and for those people Trump's apparent stupidity will never be a problem. But for a great many people it obviously will be.
And to be fair despite being notoriously unpredictable few could have imagined just how much damage Trump could do to America in just his first week as US president. I certainly didn't.
EDIT : Something which I forgot to mention is that Trump was massively helped by the fact that the Democrats put forward the worst possible candidate - someone who was considered dishonest and untrustworthy, extremely close to the political/Washington elite and Obama, and who had a completely misplaced sense of self-entitlement.
And to be fair despite being notoriously unpredictable few could have imagined just how much damage Trump could do to America in just his first week as US president. I certainly didn't.
I think plenty predicted at least some of it. What is the hope for now is that there are 3 levels of stops here.
First Congress both in terms of funding and voting down legislation - the wall being a good example of that
Secondly his cabinet - already the stops on torture etc. from people who are just not prepared to implement things like that are welcoming. the end of feb will be interesting when they put forward the ISIS Plan - who will have the political will for another boots on ground war? You can't do it all from the air. Will the US military be comfortable along side the Ruissians - the potential for incedents there is huge.
Thrid is the Courts, though his supreme court pic may help him they might feel the need to remain a little impartial to start with. You would have to expect heavy legal challenges to most of his policies which are close to or which are unconstitutional or just plain illegal.
As for timescales 2018 will be a key time, with low popularity and people still objecting to what he plans a significant shift could go against him. That is when the Repulicans will be getting worried
And to be fair despite being notoriously unpredictable few could have imagined just how much damage Trump could do to America in just his first week as US president. I certainly didn't.
Really? He didn't do enough during the campaign to convince you of just how awful he is?
I guess this is part of the point.... the guy openly admitted to repeated sexual assault in the run-up to the election, for crying out loud, and yet people (in large numbers) still voted for him.
In that example, he brushed it off as "locker-room-talk"..... something that makes no sense and doesn't address the issue in any way shape or form, and yet large swathes of the American public just accepted it and started parroting it back.
Similar things re: tax returns, nepotism, business interests, Russia etc etc, even the bloody inauguration crowd issue...... it seems like he can say whatever he likes, regardless of how outrageously untrue/offensive/illegal it is, and a large part of the population not only believe it, but start repeating it as truth.
It's bloody scary.
