[Closed] Dole Rant!!!! Bit Daily Mailish (sorry)

Just to add a potentially 'explosive' thought- I do admire the (seemingly always non-british) blokes, often along with wives/sisters etc, rather enterprisingly setting up hand car washes on bits of waste ground or disused petrol stations and the like.... cars will always need washing and all that.

not sure if they are working under the iron fist of some evil ringmaster though...

Or find some fruit or veg to pick

It's just a mentality I guess - I've had several periods of struggling to find a "proper" job but the longest I've not had any is three days. Just done stuff like farm labouring, site labouring, office temping when I've really struggled. Grim but it's still work.

Must be the mentality. My logic is that if I'm going to give an effective 60% of my wage to the government every year (Tax+NI+Student Loan), I will certainly use any benefits i'm entitled to. It's not scrounging and i'm not going to do 'grim' work.

So Ewan - you are a Daily Mail reader type who thinks he is "above" menial work then?

God help you if you lose your "vital" job and struggle to find another. Oh hang on, you are so damn important, you'll never have any issues finding extremely well paid work will you? You'd rather go on the dole than do something with your time?

I wonder why Britain is falling to bits? It's because of this ^ attitude.

[i]Just to add a potentially 'explosive' thought- I do admire the (seemingly always non-british) blokes, often along with wives/sisters etc, rather enterprisingly setting up hand car washes on bits of waste ground or disused petrol stations and the like.... cars will always need washing and all that.

not sure if they are working under the iron fist of some evil ringmaster though... [/i]

Nah, its to take advantage of the tax-credits system - seriously.

I signed on for the first time ever last year, my entitlement was £50 per week. So in 6 months I got £2500 - which was less than the tax I use to pay, every month!

Even if there was work around for everyone, as a previous post said, would YOU employ them?

Matt, I clearly need to explain this a bit better.

One of the basic functions of a democracy is to provide for the needy - when I was out of work I was one of those, perhaps not on the scale of someone in Afghanistan but probably by the standards of the UK.

Society as a whole has decided that it is broadly in favour of people who find themselves out of work (aka the needy) being supported by the state for a short period.

This decision has been translated into a series of rules and regulations by the sitting and past governments; one of those rules is that you don't have to take 'any' work, you can choose something that suits your skill set (at least for the first couple of months or so).

I've met my side of the bargain that is struck between the state and it's population - I followed the rules and paid my taxes, as a result the state met it's side and I wasn't forced to do something I was totally unsuited to.

I'm not naive enough to think i'll never be out of work again, but when I am, I will follow the rules that govern the dole and assuming it's for the short term probably decide against breaking my back lifting rocks around a building site. If I was unfortunate not to find of my choosing within the permitted time I'd then take whatever I could find, but not before.

I'm not sure I agree with your point that me spending 5 years at university studying engineering and then going into a decent job without spending a couple of months on a building site is the entire reason for 'Britain falling to bits'.

And for information, my time was spent applying for jobs, attending and prepping for a couple of interviews a week at a minimum, and doing shifts at the local cancer charity shop.

More money is lost through error than fraudulant claims, and both amounts are vastly eclipsed by the revenue lost through tax avoidance techniques utilised by the richest in our society.

FWIW I signed on for a full two weeks, got a job labouring on a building site and then managed to find a better job while I was working there. It's not a fun existence but I think that was more because I personally felt like a failure having to rely on JSA.

You could have done office temping, fruit picking, anything really. I managed despite having previously got an Engineering degree and a well paid job.

Breaking your back lifting rocks? Well to me that's a free gym membership with a bit of a laugh thrown in as a bonus.

I don't think of paying taxes as a "bank" in which I dip into if things go wrong. Therefore if work dries up, I find work and I search everywhere until I find it - always been the case from casual jobs aged 12 to the present day.

Funnily enough I managed to find a "decent" job in my spell of temp stuff and all went fine.

IMO you simply think you are above menial tasks as many of the UK's population are - hence hard working Eastern Europeans grabbing loads of jobs and so causing blue collar workers to moan at all these immigrants.

Being a UK citizen does not mean automatic rights to a "good" job, a mortgage and everything else that society now demands without ever thinking about it.

[url= http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/08/20/sir-philip-green-tax-avoider-gets-job-on-the-side/ ]Tax Avoider appointed public spending Tsar[/url]

Put the firm in the name of the missus, set the old girl up with a nice little gaff down in Monaco, and then pay her a dividend of well over a billion quid. Tell the taxman to go swivel.

That’s essentially what Sir Philip Green did in 2005, so ensuring that not a single one of those 1,200,000,000 spons got unnecessarily spent on schools and hospitals and that sort of stuff. All 100% legit, natch.

I never suggested that being a UK citizen did entitle me to a 'good' job. I suggested I was entitled to follow the rules, which I did. If you want to lift rocks, then great, I didn't.

And to be frank, I do think I'm above doing menial tasks. If I didn't why would I have applied myself for 21 years in education in order to get good GCSEs, good A-Levels, a good degree, a masters, and then finally after all of that a 'good' job? I'd have to be crazy if I did all of that to then pick fruit for a living.

You don't get anything for nothing in life - I've worked hard to get what I have, I've never thought i'd get it 'without thinking about it' for an instant.

Its a simple fact that there are significantly more people than jobs - millions of people are not going to get a job no matter how hard they try - there simply isn't the jobs out there

so where do you think this couple of million new jobs are going to come from?

Ewan - yes of course I also studied for years so I could lift rocks...
It's called necessity. Being out of work, whether you have ten phds and a string of successes or have no quals is one of the worst things that can happen to anyone. You'd happily sit on your "highly educated" butt because you think you are above it all, many of use will seek out work as a matter of the utmost urgency.

I know a few previously well paid people who will not "stoop" to a menial job so they remain on the dole. Oh very dear.

Still you have a very high opinion of yourself professionally - stay in the right circles and I'm sure that'll take you far...

TJ - millions of people that don't try hard enough. Survival of the fittest and all that. Look hard enough in the right places and you'll find work.

I was unemployed for a while about 5 years ago, no ****er would give me a job doing anything due to my qualification overload despite signing on at a number of temp agencies, going into pubs and restaurants whilst also doing the proper job applications my degree, masters and PhD deserved... finally took a job for 2 months at the other end of the country for £14 000 a year. If I'd have had family I wouldnt have been able to do that. Its not always as simple as just looking about, shame some on here cannot see that.

Look hard enough in the right places and you'll find work.

not everyone will and your slightly deluded if you think thats true.

Being out of work, whether you have ten phds and a string of successes or have no quals is one of the worst things that can happen to anyone

That's my point. That's why society has decided to support those people unfortunate enough to find themselves in that situation. Would you rather we temporarily reverted to hunter gathering and knocked off the nearest chubby looking dog?

You have a number of weeks on the dole before you have to take 'anything'. I followed the rules, I found a job within that time frame. I didn't feel the need to 'prove' myself by taking anything going.

Besides, as I pointed out above, I didn't sit on my 'highly educated' butt, I did a number of things including, getting a job.

You seem to be incredibly angry that there are people who are happy to follow the rules that society has decided upon and then get a job that contributes back to society at the end of it. I'm not entirely sure why.

What do you want taxes to be spent on if not for improving the welfare of society? Guns? Tanks? Subscriptions to STW? Free copies of the Express for everyone?

This decision has been translated into a series of rules and regulations by the sitting and past governments; one of those rules is that you don't have to take 'any' work, you can choose something that suits your skill set (at least for the first couple of months or so).

I've met my side of the bargain that is struck between the state and it's population - I followed the rules and paid my taxes, as a result the state met it's side and I wasn't forced to do something I was totally unsuited to.

But when I signed on for my one and only time. After paying National Insurance for 10 years I was only given 3 months of Job Seekers allowance. Which I used a week of as I didn't bother going back to sign on again.

And to be frank, I do think I'm above doing menial tasks. If I didn't why would I have applied myself for 21 years in education in order to get good GCSEs, good A-Levels, a good degree, a masters, and then finally after all of that a 'good' job? I'd have to be crazy if I did all of that to then pick fruit for a living.

I have a friend who has done all that, less the masters. Now after 15 years he's still working as a barman in a local pub. He's been there for the whole time.

Incredibly angry? Ermmm...

I just don't like people who think they are above others. They bore me, they leach off society, they moan, they bleat yet do nothing about anything.

I like people who just get on with it. Don't moan. Just DO stuff. They are the ones that get ahead - not necessarily financially but they just get on in life.

So going on the dole is "following the rules" is it? Not it isn't. It's admitting failure.

And if getting a job in hard times is so impossible, how come I've always had work? I've lived in Cornwall, Swansea and Bristol - mostly not what I'd called centres of mass employment. It's because of a strong work ethic that's all.

Right now I can think of at least three jobs/work I could get locally tomorrow if our company suddenly keeled over.

I like people who just get on with it. Don't moan. Just DO stuff. They are the ones that get ahead - not necessarily financially but they just get on in life.

I presume you've not got ahead then? You're the one moaning about people on the dole. Personally I'm not bothered, there will be people that game the system, but the majority will play by the rules. I've done alright so far, even though I've briefly been on the dole, so you won't hear me moaning about it.

So going on the dole is "following the rules" is it? Not it isn't. It's admitting failure.

Well it's not really is it? It's being intelligent and using all the resources available to you to better yourself. To decide that something's below you for no good reason is pretty silly.

Anyway, please let me know how I've 'leached' off society, I'm curious. You also avoided my question of what taxes should be spent on if not for supporting a countries citizens.

TJ - millions of people that don't try hard enough. Survival of the fittest and all that. Look hard enough in the right places and you'll find work

So going on the dole is "following the rules" is it? Not it isn't. It's admitting failure

Well apart from running a PR business that's increased profit every year since it started up and has numerous blue chip clients, nope, not got ahead at all. 🙄

See people like you love to judge others very quickly.

Going on the dole is sponging - it's contributing NOTHING to society at all. Sure the system is needed but IMO taxes are best spent elsewhere. The NHS, Defence, subsidising nuclear power stations (URGENTLY needed), disability benefits (fair IMO), emergency services, prisons, kick starting new enterprise and exports, education, etc, etc.

Dole is not "supporting" citizens - it's giving a crutch to those who can't be ar5ed to find a job 99% of the time.

I dont measure myself by how much worth I have or get any self esteem for doing something I dhnt want too for money.

Well having done farm labouring, site labouring, base level office temping, heavy work in wholesale fruit markets, etc, I think I can safely say that I don't measure myself on how much worth I have. Sure it's handy not worrying too much about money but if I meet someone and they give it the "I earn "x" I drive "z" I own "xxx" then I just walk away. It's what you do not what you earn that makes a person IMO.

Matt, you missed my point. I was showing you that you contradicted yourself by saying that people who moaned never got ahead, whereas here you are moaning about people on the dole and you've clearly got ahead.

See people like you love to judge others very quickly.

Do I even need to bother to explain the irony in this sentence when the following sentence is...

Going on the dole is sponging - it's contributing NOTHING to society at all.

Absolutely no judging going on there at all.

Dole is not "supporting" citizens - it's giving a crutch to those who can't be ar5ed to find a job 99% of the time.

Really. I suspect the technical term for the proceeding sentence is 'bollocks'.

See people like you love to judge others very quickly.

Going on the dole is sponging...........

😆

awesome irony

I was on the dole for a couple of months. Hated it. I mean, really HATED it.

Problem seems to be endemic on both sides of the fence - a lot of the Job Centre employees appear to hate their jobs; those that don't have to fight with a computer system designed in the 17th century, and they're both pitted against a glut of unemployed who never have, and never will, work.

Their system has no capability to recognise qualifications higher than NVQ, and it continually recommends jobs hundreds of miles away. When you do apply, most employers will ignore you.

The solution I found in the end was to doctor my CV, which got me a job within 3 days.

good GCSEs, good A-Levels, a good degree, a masters

We rarely employ graduates because they have virtually no work ethic. This I think is a fine case in point.

I tried to sign on once, couldn't be arsed with the paperwork and just got a job.

oh, I forgot to add, the dole is a safety net, you are playing within the rules but hardly by the spirit of them. It is supposed to protect the weakest and most vulnerable, not prop up lazy arsed bastards who have only just finished 15 years of mostly free education.

God I feel old.

oh, I forgot to add, the dole is a safety net, you are playing within the rules but hardly by the spirit of them. It is supposed to protect the weakest and most vulnerable, not prop up lazy arsed bastards who have only just finished 15 years of mostly free education.

+ many

Going on the dole is sponging

Dole is not "supporting" citizens - it's giving a crutch to those who can't be ar5ed to find a job 99% of the time.

It's made up actually. And I forgot to answer your question - sorry.

And if you equate using the NHS, transport systems, etc as the same as claiming dole, you really aren't very bright.

I'll make sure I pay you more attention next time - I know you love to pick up on any point of mine you can and try and throw it back at me. A little alarming but flattering I guess.

I own "xxx"

Hmm!

I don't think there's a binary right/wrong answer here, everyone's situation differs. There are a hell of a lot of people sponging still, it seems to be a bit of a consumer culture thing.

I don't think we've quite modernised as a country from a huge chunk of our industry shooting off to Asia, now that shipping things around has become such big business. Obviously every raw material, and secondary manufacturing industry fell apart, not that long ago either.

Having worked for +25 years, and for the majority of those years paying 50% tax (income + NI), I think that I am 'entitled' to whatever benefits/tax credits the system has decided I am eligible for.

Its the system that splits income into tax-years, and consequently if I earn £100k in one year and then £10k in the next - I'm pay nearly £50k in year one and then are given £5k back in year two. I'm not 'scrounging', just following the rules.

if you equate using the NHS, transport systems, etc as the same as claiming dole, you really aren't very bright.

So Brain of Britain, tell us what is the difference between claiming dole and claiming treatment from the NHS is ?

I am not very bright and I have come to the conclusion there is very little difference. People contribute to a kitty as it were, and then if necessary, rely on receiving something back from it. Obviously the amount individuals contribute and receive in return varies between individuals, but that applies in both cases.

Needless to say I have got all that wrong because I'm not very bright, so put me straight Surf-Mat.

+ many

does that make me awesome too? 😉

It should be means tested IMO. There's a real difference between unemployed and long term unemployed. If someones employment history shows that they've not worked in 10 or 15 years then it should be a community improvement program to do the works that nobodys currently doing within communities and only if they work do they get any benefits. We can't be scared to with-hold funds just because we're concerned that some scumbags will begin robbing everyone. In any society, it will only be as successful as the productivity of the people allow (socialism, communism, capitalism etc). Lazy b@stards (and I'm not saying that all unemployed people are lazy) contribute nothing and we all know that money could be well spent in the health and education sectors.

People seem to be justifying their own personal experiences as evidence that the dole system is solid. Regardless, there are a lot of people, who have made a concerted effort to avoid work for their entire lives, as it's currently a viable way to live in it's own right.

It's fine as a fallback system for when jobs are tight, there will always be millions of people using the system, which is fine. There's definitely a culture of abusing the system though. I'd quite like to take every second week off to sit around and get drunk, if everyone here could get together and arrange a fund for me that'd be great, cheers.

oh, I forgot to add, the dole is a safety net, you are playing within the rules but hardly by the spirit of them. It is supposed to protect the weakest and most vulnerable, not prop up lazy arsed bastards who have only just finished 15 years of mostly free education.

God I feel old.

Speak for yourself, I came out of education (having worked throughout my degree) with 15k of debt. If you didn't then I suspect I will be paying increasing taxes whilst you're retired benefiting from the sub prime mortgage you took out against the welfare and future of your children.

We rarely employ graduates because they have virtually no work ethic. This I think is a fine case in point.

I tried to sign on once, couldn't be arsed with the paperwork and just got a job.

I'm not sure someone saying they were on the dole for 2 months after doing a degree and masters and then worked full time for another 5 years really equates to having 'no work ethic'.

As far as the paperwork goes, perhaps you could get a graduate to help you with that next time? I'm sure they can explain it too you.

PS. What *is* the difference between claiming on the NHS and claiming on the dole? They're both an insurance system paid for by society for when people fall on hard times.

I tried to sign on once, couldn't be arsed with the paperwork and just got a job.

I'm guessing you couldn't be arsed to read Ewans post about how he spent his time getting a job and working for a charity, rather than being lazy. It makes total sense to put full time effort into finding a suitable job, rather than taking the first thing that appears.

Society is not served especially well by funding graduates and then failing to take advantage of their skills. Obviously plenty of graduates are relatively incapable and will set their sights lower given time. I struggle to believe that life on the dole is the endless party it's made out to be.

Speak for yourself, I came out of education (having worked throughout my degree) with 15k of debt. If you didn't then I suspect I will be paying increasing taxes whilst you're retired benefiting from the sub prime mortgage you took out against the welfare and future of your children.

What does this mean? If he didn't get £15K of debt, he's not contributed?
How will he benefit from a sub prime mortgage? and how is it against the welfare of his children?

As far as the paperwork goes, perhaps you could get a graduate to help you with that next time? I'm sure they can explain it too you.

Indeed, most will have filled it out hundreds of times 😛

On a completely different note, there are some absolute tosh degrees around at the moment, I've done one myself which was a complete waste of time and money. I bet a lot of tax money is wasted there on getting people pretend qualifications that don't actually work towards getting a job.

It is supposed to protect the weakest and most vulnerable, not prop up lazy arsed bastards who have only just finished 15 years of mostly free education.

No its' not. That would be the American definition of it, but its there to support all who need it, that's what part of all of our taxes are for.

30 years working out of a possible 32 years working life (34 from 36 if you count the 4 years of papers delivery I did while at school). Since July 2008 I have been out of work about 16 months (not all in one go). I have now been out of work for 11 months. Approx. 600 job applications so far. 5 interviews. Low paid menial jobs don't seem to want me (when they see how much I've earned before they just assume you will disappear as soon as you can get a well paid job again) and finding it hard to get a position similar to previous due to competition.

So thanks for telling me that if I really wanted to work I'd have found a job months ago.

Believe me, I hate my visits to the Jobcentre and mixing with the non-achievers and the attitude.

I assume that you are also of the opinion that the death sentance would be good and a few mistaken non-guilty deaths would be ok as the price to pay.

There are a lot of scroungers out there and every time I go to Jobcentre I end up wondering how the system could be changed. Not come up with a workable solution yet.

I think Ewan took offence to his education being described as mostly free, when it cost him £15k. I went to Uni for 3 days and made £3.5k out of it 🙂 Unsure about the sub prime mortgage bit, but guessing that refers to him being priced out of the property market.

It's made up actually. And I forgot to answer your question - sorry.

And if you equate using the NHS, transport systems, etc as the same as claiming dole, you really aren't very bright.

I'll make sure I pay you more attention next time - I know you love to pick up on any point of mine you can and try and throw it back at me. A little alarming but flattering I guess

It is a pulic forum I challenged you on what you said if you think thats flattering then you are easily praised if somewhat misguided.

It's a shame the thread has got quite so derailed, the OP clearly wasn't refering to people who have worked hard for 20+ years in an industry, then got stuck unemployed. It seems to have been trolled down into a pretty dark place, then anti-trolled back out to talking about something completely different.

Toasty - could you say it's been trollercoastered?

I like trollercoaster That will be my new forum phrase

Indeed, it's out of con-troll!

I'm trolltally confused about where its gone