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As far as the paperwork goes, perhaps you could get a graduate to help you with that next time? I'm sure they can explain it too you.
Indeed, most will have filled it out hundreds of times 😛
On a completely different note, there are some absolute tosh degrees around at the moment, I've done one myself which was a complete waste of time and money. I bet a lot of tax money is wasted there on getting people pretend qualifications that don't actually work towards getting a job.
It is supposed to protect the weakest and most vulnerable, not prop up lazy arsed bastards who have only just finished 15 years of mostly free education.
No its' not. That would be the American definition of it, but its there to support all who need it, that's what part of all of our taxes are for.
30 years working out of a possible 32 years working life (34 from 36 if you count the 4 years of papers delivery I did while at school). Since July 2008 I have been out of work about 16 months (not all in one go). I have now been out of work for 11 months. Approx. 600 job applications so far. 5 interviews. Low paid menial jobs don't seem to want me (when they see how much I've earned before they just assume you will disappear as soon as you can get a well paid job again) and finding it hard to get a position similar to previous due to competition.
So thanks for telling me that if I really wanted to work I'd have found a job months ago.
Believe me, I hate my visits to the Jobcentre and mixing with the non-achievers and the attitude.
I assume that you are also of the opinion that the death sentance would be good and a few mistaken non-guilty deaths would be ok as the price to pay.
There are a lot of scroungers out there and every time I go to Jobcentre I end up wondering how the system could be changed. Not come up with a workable solution yet.
I think Ewan took offence to his education being described as mostly free, when it cost him £15k. I went to Uni for 3 days and made £3.5k out of it 🙂 Unsure about the sub prime mortgage bit, but guessing that refers to him being priced out of the property market.
It's made up actually. And I forgot to answer your question - sorry.
You sure you are in PR you seem to have blurted out a truth there 😉
And if you equate using the NHS, transport systems, etc as the same as claiming dole, you really aren't very bright.
I will for ever be in your shadow intelectually as you have shown once more by your insightful and well reasoned arguments on this topic. See ernie's post for an explanation.
I'll make sure I pay you more attention next time - I know you love to pick up on any point of mine you can and try and throw it back at me. A little alarming but flattering I guess
It is a pulic forum I challenged you on what you said if you think thats flattering then you are easily praised if somewhat misguided.
It's a shame the thread has got quite so derailed, the OP clearly wasn't refering to people who have worked hard for 20+ years in an industry, then got stuck unemployed. It seems to have been trolled down into a pretty dark place, then anti-trolled back out to talking about something completely different.
Toasty - could you say it's been trollercoastered?
I like trollercoaster That will be my new forum phrase
Indeed, it's out of con-troll!
I'm trolltally confused about where its gone
What does this mean? If he didn't get £15K of debt, he's not contributed?
How will he benefit from a sub prime mortgage? and how is it against the welfare of his children?
My point is that the older generation has benefited massively by effectively taking out a massive loan against future generations ability to repay it. For example:
- PFIs
- Massive investment in the NHS
- Inflation in the 1980's wiping out the value of home loans whilst subsequently restructuring the financial system to ensure that inflation is now kept at an historic low insuring that anyone taking out a mortgage now will not get the same benefit
- Implementing planning rules that prevent new houses being built, having the simultaneous effect of increasing the wealth of those who already own homes
- etc etc
Add to that a rapidly aging population who will expect the young to fund the medical treatment they'll expect during their retirement.
That is what I meant by taking a mortgage out on your childrens future. Having it all today, and making someone else pay for it tomorrow.
Phew, it's lucky you arrived when you did with your £15k education, things were looking bleak there for a moment.
I hear the 80s were just a chain party, everyone just ate cocktail sausages and drank champagne.
Surf-Mat that comment is deserving of the highest form of praise on this forum - Awesome.
Some might say that Awesome is an extrollment 😉
I haven't read any of this, but some people do BS.
I bet the liar(?) also moans about all these millions of immigrant that steal our jobs / don't make it worth their while to come off the dole. After all, England owes them a living what with all the hard work they put in at school to get no qulaifications blah blah blah
They may be good at milking the system, but they have empty lives
I haven't read any of this, but some people do BS.I bet the liar(?) also moans about all these millions of immigrant that steal our jobs / don't make it worth their while to come off the dole. After all, England owes them a living what with all the hard work they put in at school to get no qulaifications blah blah blah
They may be good at milking the system, but they have empty lives
Yep most probably. I wanted a Rant about some ****s. I had my rant. Then a good day selling lots of things to lots of people so I'm happy now.
Following up TJs probing about "where are these jobs going to come from?", surely we can all agree that there are jobs which need to be done, it's just that no one has the money to pay for them (e.g. road repairs, building cycle paths). Using the dole money to pay people to do these jobs rather than sit at home doing nothing surely makes sense?
Ewan how is this the older generations fault?
PFI, inflation and planning are governmental policy. I agree with you on PFI, inflation has to be what it is and exactly why do we need all of the new housing? You sound bitter that you can't afford a house. Home ownership is a privilege to be earned and not a right.
You have a degree whoopee. In the real world it means f*** all, nobody owes you anything and you are not going to waltz into a job which could be done by someone who has spent their time grafting and learning their profession rather then getting "the university experience".
+1 1961Bikie - same experiences.
And I'm sure that SurfMat (and others who are self-employed) ensure that they takes advantage of all the tax rules to make sure they (and no doubt spouse) pay the least in tax etc. No different, just obeying the rules - the 'Nuremberg Defence'.
I know we do 😉
I bet there'd be lots of complaints if the likes of Experian were employed by the DWP, to look at tax-payers in entirety, rather than just benefit recipricants?
Using the dole money to pay people to do these jobs rather than sit at home doing nothing surely makes sense?
I like this idea, but fear that the only governments brave enough to put it into place would abuse it as a source of free labour. You only need to see the examples above to know that some people are using their time on the dole valuably.
You have a degree whoopee. In the real world it means f*** all
Now it's you sounding bitter 😉
Druidh - indeed. We have jobs that need doing, we have people who need jobs. However no one wants to pay for it. "national service"? Not military but civil. £50 on top of your dole for a real 35 hr week. Opportunity maybe even to learn some skills and use the labour to make our country a nicer place. Real jobs created for the supervisors.
Suft mat - please tell me where these millions of jobs are at the moment. You castigate people for not getting off their behinds and getting work - but where are these few million jobs? - are they in Jeopardy? I was told there are a millions jobs in Jeopardy
Ewan how is this the older generations fault?
PFI, inflation and planning are governmental policy. I agree with you on PFI, inflation has to be what it is and exactly why do we need all of the new housing? You sound bitter that you can't afford a house. Home ownership is a privilege to be earned and not a right.
You have a degree whoopee. In the real world it means f*** all, nobody owes you anything and you are not going to waltz into a job which could be done by someone who has spent their time grafting and learning their profession rather then getting "the university experience".
Well it's not younger peoples fault is it? They didn't elect the government (or more importantly the governments of the past). Even the current government admits that the current generation has taken a loan out against future generations see David Willet's well publicised speeches.
As for being bitter about not being able to buy a house - not sure where you got that from as I do own a house. And I have a job, which I certainly didn't waltz into just because I have a degree. I got a job as a result of having worked hard at school and university.
You sound bitter that you didn't go to university...
You sound bitter that you didn't go to university...
I did.......as a mature student and learnt little due to having experience beyond the syllabus. I have had a job since 16 and I didn't do well at school and have clambered my way up the ladder due to being relatively bright which is a very different thing to being well educated.
Fair play if you've paid your dues and are now reaping the rewards but not all of the generation before you voted for the never never party and that's worth bearing in mind before pointing fingers.
Oh and £15K of debt and now owning a house? Sub-prime or rich parents?
Neither. I got a good job, and the debt is a student loan, so no point paying it off faster than I need to.
As far as the paperwork goes, perhaps you could get a graduate to help you with that next time? I'm sure they can explain it too you.
Really did LOL.
explain it too you
Only one 'o' in that context. So much for your expensive education. Gobshite.
Blimey. Calling names and pointing out spelling errors on the Internet. Mature.
You've missed my point re: the education. I wanted it to be free, probably like yours was. But it wasn't because your generation had spent all the money on yourselves.
We have jobs that need doing, we have people who need jobs. However no one wants to pay for it. "national service"? Not military but civil. £50 on top of your dole for a real 35 hr week. Opportunity maybe even to learn some skills and use the labour to make our country a nicer place. Real jobs created for the supervisors.
This is a nice idea, if you could extend it to maybe working in the voluntary sector for a max fixed period it might be good. However I fear it would cost more than the current situation and as we have seen in this thread people object to things that cost!
having done farm labouring, site labouring, base level office temping, heavy work in wholesale fruit markets, etc, I think I can safely say that I don't measure myself on how much worth I have.
No - you can measure yourself by how [b]awesome [/b]you are. There would be a lot less unemployment in this country if awesome people like you could work just a little less hard and let the rest of the population pick up the slack. You're simply too productive Surf-Matt, that's the problem - so efficient that you do the work of ten men, leaving the other nine failures on the dole. 🙁
if you could extend it to maybe working in the voluntary sector for a max fixed period it might be good.
It was a good idea but the tories removed the entire budget for the Future Jobs fund and the Backing Young Britain campaigns as a cost cutting excercise. This would b moreexpensive than benefits. People may get work experience and employability skills but it wont lead to jobs as tere are no realjobs out there fro the.It would reuire empoyers to give opportunities to people for free and therefore may lead to more unemployment. See E2E [entry to employment] for young people for costs and success rates ...most end up at college[evelone coursesor doing training for ajob that does not exist so simply delays the problem] and the same employers offer placement after placement with no actuall employment. It is not cheap either. Good idea but it wont acheve the intended aim sadly.
TJ his awesomeness wont answer you he is in PR you cannot actually expect him to be able to back up what he says with facts or evidence.
I vote libertarianism. It's been here before it will come round again. 😀
Soylent Green is the answer to the unemployment problem.
Junkyard, yes your right of course but I would rather it was used as a skills investment rather than a cost cutting exercise. It would very hard to do right also.
1961bikie - if you need the low-paid job for the short term, you'll have to alter your CV to get it. Take off qualifications, make your previous job titles sound as uninspiring as possible, and leave a couple of gaps.
Next, really push any volunteering work you've done (eg through cycling). Don't mention details of your previous salary in the interview, or if they push you, lie.
By the time I'd finished with mine it looked like I'd just had 3 years in the clink, but I got a job driving vans for a courier company within 2 days of taking my "new" CV round to employment agencies who'd ignored me in the past.
I was almost thrown out of the Job Centre because after week six with totally pointless job suggestions thrown up by the drone I was seeing I asked if there were any jobs at the JC, since it simply appeared to involve assuming everyone was worthless scum and treating them appropriately.
A_A yes sadly ther eis no easy solution here.
Certainly some unemployed are lazy and ****less some are trying their very best to get work in difficult times and some would work if they got the chnace but have nothing really to offer the labour market and are unlikely to get the chance
There is no easy solution and no one is really happy with people doing nothing on benefits. What was once a safety net for all has become a lifestyle choice for some [whilst moaning at them living off you would you really want to swap places with them?].
Knee jerk reactions lik stopping beneits would not be cheaper or effective in increasing unemployment. Rather they would increase crime and extreme poverty. I am sure there is a middle way between the extremes but it still requires full employment or we are accepting that not everyone can have employment whether they want this or we force them totake jobs. I think we can all agree we are nowhere near full employment
Following up TJs probing about "where are these jobs going to come from?", surely we can all agree that there are jobs which need to be done, it's just that no one has the money to pay for them (e.g. road repairs, building cycle paths). Using the dole money to pay people to do these jobs rather than sit at home doing nothing surely makes sense?
Those jobs you refer to are actually taken. What you are referring to is to put people with those jobs already on the dole and supplant them with cheap labour from the dole.
Before I went to Uni I spent a year working in retail shops saving, now those jobs are occupied by full time people who were layed off.
What do students do now??
Times have changed but I'd rather work than be on the dole.
My Father got laid off from engineering, he was on the dole, washing cars and delivering pizzas rather than claiming benefit as he has work ethic. Took him a year to find work and that was travelling 40 miles to do hard labour with a bully supervisor working with migrants to pay bills.
I have to admit I'd rather be on the dole than picking up rocks or cold conditions in food freezers all day for same pay but sometimes you have to bit the bullet and work in $hit job sometimes but even they are hard to find for some people.
Some people need benfits e.g. sickness or homeless but some will take the system for a ride and get caught.
Personally I think there should be school fees for parents who have children so singles and couples who are childless don't have to pay for some other parents problem. 😈
Should I winge on? no, just MTFU and stop complaining and get laid etc.
....working with migrants to pay bills
Hey, I do that too !
I love working with immigrants ........I learn all sorts of fascinating facts about their countries, cultures, religions, politics, etc
Did he enjoy it as much as I do ?
Personally I think there should be school fees for parents who have children so singles and couples who are childless don't have to pay for some other parents problem.
why stop there, what about srapping the nhs too...
Because anyone can become ill or get injured.
Parents chose to have children.
people can choose their lifestyle too, what about withdrawing treatment for smokers?
Parents chose to have children.
And Governments encourage couples to do so, which is why there are Government incentives to do so.
Did he enjoy it as much as I do ?
No they didn't speak English and the boss bullied everyone etc it was hell especially at 62yrs old and working in freezing knee deep water.
why stop there, what about srapping the nhs too...
My point was to man the f up and stop complaining and pointing the finger -come up with a logical solution will make you rich in instead of complaining.
Or go have a /ride/Gf/Bike
My point was to man the f up and stop complaining and pointing the finger -come up with a logical solution will make you rich in instead of complaining.
you appear to have lost me, what on earth are you talking about?
I'm not sure myself working and posting not going well for me today! 😆
think I'll go before hole gets deeper!
No they didn't speak English .......
Ah, I find when they don't speak English an interesting challenge ........ it leads to all sorts of creative ways of expressing oneself.
I'm sorry your dad didn't enjoy working with immigrants Frankenstein......did he complain a lot about it ?
El-bent - MemberThose jobs you refer to are actually taken. What you are referring to is to put people with those jobs already on the dole and supplant them with cheap labour from the dole.
No - you misunderstand. What I'm suggesting is that we use money, which is otherwise being paid to folk to stay at home, to create [i]additional[/i] jobs. Until such time as (e.g.) all the roads are repaired, then plainly the existing workforce is inadequate.
Put the unemployed in to gladiator academies so they can fight each other and get eaten by tigers.
It would make great TV.
druidh - MemberWhat I'm suggesting is that we use money, which is otherwise being paid to folk to stay at home, to create additional jobs. Until such time as (e.g.) all the roads are repaired, then plainly the existing workforce is inadequate.
Repairing roads for £65.45 a week ?
8) Cool..............where do I sign up ?
No - you misunderstand. What I'm suggesting is that we use money, which is otherwise being paid to folk to stay at home, to create additional jobs. Until such time as (e.g.) all the roads are repaired, then plainly the existing workforce is inadequate.
I read somewhere that to improve the road network in Britain the whole lot needs to be ripped up and replaced.
Repairing roads for £65.45 a week ?Cool..............where do I sign up ?
Shouldn't be a choice for the [b]long term[/b] unemployed. You help out or get nothing. People will soon see that if they have to work anyway they may as well get a job that pays minimum wage.
People will soon see that if they have to work anyway they may as well get a job that pays minimum wage.
No no, you misunderstand.......there is no money for "extra" jobs, druidh is suggesting that [i]"we use money, which is otherwise being paid to folk to stay at home"[/i]
So not the minimum wage, but the £65.45 a week Job Seekers allowance.
The guy is a genius.........he ought to stand for parliament.
Hey, maybe he already does ? ..........I would certainly vote for his carefully thought out policies. It's just gotta be a matter of time before he is PM.
Put the unemployed in to gladiator academies so they can fight each other and get eaten by tigers.
It would make great TV
Please pitch this idea to channel 4. I've heard they are looking for new material.
I'm unemployed and would love to punch other unemployed people in the face.
Ernie, what do you think we can do to motivate the long term unemployed to work?
It's not easy especially at the moment but there are menial jobs about which anyone can do for minimum wage. If the people take these jobs especially if they have kids, they'll be worse off than on the dole. I think this needs to change and this can't be done by simply raising the min wage as the cost of living will go up.
ernie - your political will lacks imagination.
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I feel a certain amount of personal responsability is required. It's important for couples to only have children if they can supply the income themselves. Do you think only education can solve this?
backhander, you are laboring (see what I did there?) under the misapprehension that those who are unemployed want and choose to be unemployed...
... I sincerely hope that you can keep your job throughout the coming storm.
I have often thought about the "forced labour" option. Suppose after say 6 months unemployed you are obliged to do a week of "community" work (road repairs/litter collection/etc) out of every 4. The problem is - how do you motivate the workforce. They might do the work but in a slack can't be aresd way. Road repairs are bad enough as is. How do you organise logistically? You would need to employ managers/foremen etc so that would add cost. You would risk already cash strapped councils underfunding those departments where they could get enforced workers so you'd probably add to the unemployed.
It's very easy to come up with cosmetic solutions but you do have to think them through all the way. Bit like our new Government hasn't done. Cut 25% of your budget. We won't tell you how you do it, just do it. And in the meantime we will tell the country through the media that the cut will not affect front line services.
Oh how I laughed - Oh. No, I didn't actually.
Bring back national service?
Oh yeah the armed forces have got to cut back too.
Don't get me wrong seeing the scuzzers round town & in the Jobcentre really does my crust. A lot of them all seem to be managing better than I am on supposedly the same benefits that I get after 30 years of working. I consider myself a socialist but it's not easy.
I often think a nuclear war in the 80's might not have been a bad thing. There are too many of us in reality. I can only see things getting a lot worse and I really feel for the children of decent folk who are going to have to live up to the pressures and problems our society is bequeathing them. And that's without the environmental problems.
Ernie, what do you think we can do to motivate the long term unemployed to work?
Provide jobs in the area's with longterm unemployment, improve education and training, not noncy job schemes but what other countries do...apprenticeships and the like, reduce house prices and increase housing stock to improve social mobility.
Often the reason that people/Managers do not employ those with greater skills/experience than themselves is, fear. I've had this and it wasn't just the hiring Manager, but their boss too.
And 'editing' your cv down, yeah right - just how do you 'hide' +25 years of skills and experience?
Don't know about others, but having been made 'redundant' six times I've pretty much seen it all. Shit happens, just this time its taking longer to sort out than previously.
backhander, you are laboring (see what I did there?) under the misapprehension that those who are unemployed want and choose to be unemployed...... I sincerely hope that you can keep your job throughout the coming storm.
No I 'm not. If you'd bothered to read earlier posts, you realise that I think there is a massive difference between people who are unlucky enough to be temporarily unemployed and the [b]LONG TERM[/b] unemployed (bolded and capitalised for you this time). Because there is.
You seem to be under the naive impression that all people who are claiming benefits are eagerly looking for a new job. Many are, but many many aren't. El bent, I agree that the demise of the proper apprenticeship was the start of the rot. House prices cannot be just reduced, that would be financial chaos with the poor bastards who borrowed 100%+ in -equity and with high interest. Most would become homeless.
Like I said
... I sincerely hope that you can keep your job throughout the coming storm.
edit, because my response was, on reflection, combative, and I don't want to argue, merely show that it is not black and white.
it's not just £65 a week allowance, it's council tax rebate and housing benefit as well, so it does add up to a signifigant amount of money, even for a single person in a shitty 1 bed flat.
I calculate by doing my stupid menial job 40hrs per week I am better off by £50 a week rather than be on benefits. So, I'm working my ass off for £50 extra than I'd get from the state for sitting on my ass all week. I reckon I could seriously make more money by jacking in my job, going on benefits and selling paintings and prints on the side.
El bent, I agree that the demise of the proper apprenticeship was the start of the rot. House prices cannot be just reduced, that would be financial chaos with the poor bastards who borrowed 100%+ in -equity and with high interest. Most would become homeless.
The apprenticeships went when the industries doing them were essentially "destroyed" in the 80's in a mass social experiment, which has left unemployment blackspots in those very area's to this day, regardless of the recent recession.
Benefits, dole money or whatever should be used as a short term solution to the problem, but has instead become the long term solution to the problem.
If house prices cannot be brought under control, social mobility is made more difficult to achieve. Then you are left with taking jobs to those area's...traditionally manufacturing jobs. Apparently we "don't do" manufacturing these days, even though we are still 7th or 8th largest manufacturing economy in the world.(I could be wrong)
If you can't take jobs to the people, then people need to go to the jobs. While those who could afford to move, did, house prices, particularly in the south-east are now beyond these people and with the decision to sell the council housing stock in the 80's, means its being left to housing associations to build affordable new homes. It's not enough.
Add to that high living costs and over relying on a financial and services based economy...
In my opinion this country has gone wrong in the pursuit of short termism. It's come back to bite us on the ass.