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mogrim - Member
The logic being she only got a break because of her father, I suppose?
Exactly, mogrim, not a difficult thing for coffeeking to work out.
Now lets go on to why do witches float?
Easy. They are made of wood.
richc - Membermost days it seems like a forum for whiners, and bitter old men who think life is so unfair.
Is that a line from one of her songs? 😉
The logic being she only got a break because of her father, I suppose?
IdleJon proposes that she is only famous as a singer because she has a famous father with contacts. This is a flawed logic because it suggests that a total lack of musical talent can be over-ridden by having famous parents and that all of her music sales are based on her fathers fame. Regardless of his fame, if she had produced bad/unpopular music she would not still be selling albums and across the charts. How she entered the industry is not important in the determination of whether she has talent.
Most (all?) bands are talent-scouted by record companies with plenty of connections and finance - by extending his logic to others, all musical artists are talentless publicity whores, pimped by people with contacts. 🙄
Exactly, mogrim, not a difficult thing for coffeeking to work out.
No, thats not what you suggested, you suggested people only bought records because of who her father was. Suggesting that she would otherwise have never been introduced to the business or that she has no talent, neither is the case.
BigDummy - Member
Coffeeking - isn't the point that there are probably quite literally thousands of people with similar amounts of talent who never get a break, and when someone does who happens to have pretty good connections there is inevitably a suspicion that there is a causal relationship? The process of getting a pop album to the top of the charts is about a good deal more than the quality of the music, so almost the fact that an album is available to buy and being talked about on radio and TV is crucial.
And if she uses those connections then fair enough, happens all the time. But lets not pretend that it was all about her limited talented, her limited sex appeal. Would that have been enough to propel her to her current position if she was Lily Jones, daughter of a plumber from Southend?
Is that a line from one of her songs?
could be, but it would need a innit on the end to be authentic.
Jon - no-one buys a record they don't like, do they? Regardless of how the record came to be available to buy, the fact that it was purchased in millions suggests she has more than "limited" talent, unless of course her father is buying millions of copies with his connections and cash, then I would conclude you have a point. Whether there are other people deserving a break or not is irrelevant.
Take, for instance, The Verve. They have winey voices and their songs are mostly depressing (though I quite like them and their music was very good). They came from a workign class background and were talent scouted, from where they used rich and famous companies to market themselves and sold tens of millions of records, being far more famous than lilly allen. They had no famous parents, they came from my home town - my brother knew them. To suggest that she couldnt have made it as big without her father is stupidity.
Tomorrow, can we discuss Lady Gaga? 8)
She is clearly a superb songwriter. I was almost moved to tears by the line "this beat is sick/I wanna take a ride on your disco stick".
richc - Memberoh I forgot, she does whine like only a Londoner can, which is annoying, but then again she doesn't whine nearly as much as RB which is a small mercy
See, you were doing ok, but then you went and let yourself down, and revealed your whinging old bitterness.
Do any of you lot who are singing her praises, actually listen to owt outside of the Pop Charts? I've heard better singers at a karaoke night. I've heard bands/acts with better songwriters in the back rooms of tatty pubs. There are probbly people on here, who are musically more talented than Lily Allen.
She is a mediocre pop tart, with some very slick production and marketing behind her. Nowt special at all. Trouble is, there's so much commercial junk around, that she stands out. Mind, anything's got to be better than Crazy Frog, I spose...
CK, you seem to be misreading me or misquoting me, I didn't say that others deserved a break.
But you seem to be suggesting that just because an act sells records, they must have more than a limited talent, whoever they are? Have you not noticed how the music industry works?
X-factor records are bought in their millions. Do the acts have above average talent?
edit - and what have the Verve got to do with the price of fish?
First album stood our from the crowd for me. Fun, catchy and still enjoyable today. Cue an influx of Lily Allen wannabies (Kate Nash anyone?)that means she no longer stands out as anything special. That and the fact her current single has the kind of lyrics any of us on here could better means she's definitely gone downhill recently. Shame really, I always used to be able to ignore lyrical content.
X-factor records are bought in their millions. Do the acts have above average talent?
I'd suggest that yes, they do. You may not like how they sing, but the people in the music industry know what sells, and choose that. There's more than enough competition that they don't have to choose average or below average acts.
Lily Allen's dad may have got her noticed by the right people, but if she'd been completely talentless they wouldn't have risked money on her.
X-factor records are bought in their millions. Do the acts have above average talent?
Er, yes. Even if you're not a fan I think it is difficult to ignore that Leona Lewis, that funny looking dude who sings Opera, Alexandra Burke (the last winner) and many others from X Factor/Britain's Got Talent etc genuinely do have talent.
CK, you seem to be misreading me or misquoting me, I didn't say that others deserved a break.
Correct, sorry I mis-quoted, BigDummy mentioned it. Was only a side-point anyway.
But you seem to be suggesting that just because an act sells records, they must have more than a limited talent, whoever they are? Have you not noticed how the music industry works?X-factor records are bought in their millions. Do the acts have above average talent?
One would suggest that the acts that sell ONE or TWO singles after weeks of TV exposure and then vanish have average or below average talent. One who has no prior TV coverage and sells several albums over the course of a couple of years, in numbers in the millions would be a totally different situation suggesting more than just connections and meagre talent. Even so, some of those really DO have talent, plenty.
The verve being an example of ordinary people who have made it without famous fathers, pointing out that while it may help to start a career it doesnt actually make a difference to the LENGTH of the career or the quantity of records sold ultimately. While obviously it's not black and white, its certainly not as greyscale as you are suggesting when you say people are buying records because of who her father is. Name me an act that has absolutely zero talent but has a long standing continuing career - and taste does not count.
I'm not arguing anymore, we're going round in circles. I just totally disagree with your logic, regardless of whether I like her music or not.
...and to bring this back to Dylan, they can sing better than him 😀
but if she'd been completely talentless they wouldn't have risked money on her.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Milli Vanilli:
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I can't see what the difference between Lily Allen and the other pop tarts from the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's (e.g Cilla Black, Banarama, Spice Girls) is?
AFAIK Lily Allen became popular from her MySpace pages
- from a group of people who wouldn't have known who her father was.
It's probably fair to suggest that he only got the role in Robin Hood off the back of his daughters fame.
She produces good, catchy pop records and doesn't take herself too seriously - whilst still managing to be pretty cute.
Works for me....
People here are also letting their taste get in the way of the argument. Talent is not the same as taste. I hate football of any kind, but realise that the players are talented (often!).
X-factor records are bought in their millions. Do the acts have above average talent?
On the strength of her voice alone, I personally don't think that Lily Allen would make it through to the later stages of X-factor.
One would suggest that the acts that sell ONE or TWO singles after weeks of TV exposure and then vanish have average or below average talent.
coffeeking, have I misunderstood? It seems like you've mistaken talent for success. You've no argument from me that TV exposure helps sell records or that many such acts eventually disappear, but assuming we're talking about SINGING talent then most of these TV "winners" are much more capable singers than average. Some can even - shock horror - write songs and play instruments.
coffeeking, have I misunderstood? It seems like you've mistaken talent for success.
I can't see how you can realistically suggest the two are not linked unless you have some underlying grudge. If someone does not have a talent (a talent being someting that they can do well) then people would not make them a success. Her talent is creating catchy songs and singing them well, people buy them. If she didnt write catchy songs and sung them badly she would not sell them (over an extended period), regardless of cash pumped in. Her talents are not only SINGING. She may be only a mediocre singer, but she comes as a package. Most people dont value people for just one part of their person.
Irrespective of of paternity (I recall she was mainly brought up by mum + Harry Enfield anyway) not only has she had a hugely successful (more so than any of us on here I'd wager, although hard to quantify) first album, as X factor contestants have done, she has also released a hugely successful second album, which I believe no X factor contestant has done. (Don't hold me to that bit)
Talent or not she is part of the zeitgeist, she's also her own person far more so than the Leona' Lewis's of the world. Perhaps that's part of the problem to her decriers? She talks to a lot of teenage/twenties girls with her lyrics, she designs clothes etc and in twenty years they'll still be playing smile etc on the radio. Oh and bit of trivia she's got 3 nipples.
Christ I sound like a fan.
coffeking you are rather naive to think that talent and success are related in anyway in the pop world
the charts have been a joke since forever, PR, marketing, record labels, radio 1 playlists, 'svengalis' like cowell, fuller, waterman etc have so distorted the music scene that talent isnt even 50% of the equation
half our charts are dominated by one slimy incredibly false guy called simon cowell whos tv shows shit out half the performers on there who instantly enter the top ten to add to his many millions of pounds
lilly didnt go via that channel she used her celeb father to get her foot in the door and let her labels pr people do the rest
svengalis' like
Joe Meek, Brian Epstein......
'Talent or not she is part of the zeitgeist, she's also her own person far more so than the Leona' Lewis's of the world. Perhaps that's part of the problem to her decriers? She talks to a lot of teenage/twenties girls with her lyrics, she designs clothes etc and in twenty years they'll still be playing smile etc on the radio. Oh and bit of trivia she's got 3 nipples.'
My grandfather had 3 nipples. So did Scaramanga. They would have been burnt as witches, which links nicely to my post above.
come on bimbler i was born in 1976 not 1937
besides didnt epstein launch cilla blacks career!?!
Those nay saying the paternal influence, her USP at the start, as introduced by that arbiter of modern taste Radio One, was, "Lily is Keith Allen's daughter".
I don't like her music as it sounds over produced, some of the lyrics are clever but some are crude and lacking in imagination.
And they say girls are bitchy!
😆
BigDummy don't forget my favourite ladygaga line; bluffin' with my muffin 😀
anyhow Lily Allen, quite like her songs, they make me laugh. can't stand her persona though.
kimbers
I was grateful for you saying exactly what I was going to say to CoffeeKing until you ruined my argument by using Simon Cowell's TV shows as your example of talent not equating to success. Like it or not, these shows have unearthed genuine talent, whether it is to your taste or not.
Leona Lewis is a great example of this. Her singing talent - like it or not she can sing - was natural and "discovered" by the X Factor. Her "star quality" was non-existent and has been manufactured by Cowell's machine. She has sold millions of albums and is big in the State as well as here.
Success from little or no talent? I refer you to the pic of Milli Vanilli above and many others...
A lot of people have crap taste - doesn't make her great just because she sells records. Anyone still listen to Five Star of Bros? Indeed there are many great albums from the past that don't get heard by the majority of younger people because they're not pushed but they would sell - or maybe not as they're not cool? I dunno!
YOU LEAVE FIVE STAR OUT OF THIS!!!
I saw her in the pub at Heathrow terminal 5 a few weeks ago. I couldn't help thinking that if she was really famous and talented, she'd have been in the VIP section...
Personally don't think I'm naive - I am aware of the various influences (PR, cash, fame etc) but just dont think it explains this case. She has a marked ability to write songs that are catchy and sings those songs fairly well (how she sings them is personal taste). The fact that she appeals to enough people to sell the records gives her [b]a marked ability in an area[/b]. That is the definition of talent. People dont just go out and buy records because they're well marketed, they only buy records that they enjoy listening to. She has a talent for producing music that people like, this cannot be argued.
I saw her in the pub at Heathrow terminal 5 a few weeks ago. I couldn't help thinking that if she was really famous and talented, she'd have been in the VIP section...
Only if she let the fame go to her head.
I couldn't help thinking that if she was really famous and talented, she'd have been in the VIP section...
the famousest person I've ever met was Alan Bennett - but unfortunately Clapham (in Yorkshire) doesn't have a VIP lounge (or even pavements) so he had to walk on the road 🙁
People dont just go out and buy records because they're well marketed, they only buy records that they enjoy listening to
God Help Us. I thought that WAS the only reason we have so much rubbish in the charts
they only buy records that they enjoy listening to
Really? So many kids buy stuff because their friends do and the bands are deemed the ones to like. My sister years ago was a fan of the Spice Girls as were all her friends, but then they all decided they were rubbish at pretty much the same time.
Not fussed about her one way or the other - never was or will be the type of miusic I listen too...........
.....however, after seeing her 'livelounge' set at the R1 Big weekend on tv, I would like to pay tribute to the highly talented producers/engineers who make her recordings sound like she hasn't caught her fanny climbing over a gate !
coffeking you are digging yourself in deeper
simon cowell is sooo fake it calls into question any of his protege's actual talent or genuine ability in my opinion
I think we are round in a circle on this. I am not sure that the OP's question was "does Lily sell numerous records?", I suspect it went to whether she [i]would[/i] sell lots of records if the record-buying public bought records on the basis of musical talent. That in itself carries the assumption that musical talent can be objectively separated from whether audiences like the music or its success, which is of course highly debatable. 🙂
Doesn't really do much for me, lately she seems to be sounding axactly the same as kate nash, not only the voice but the music as well. Looks and sounds all right though if that's your thing. She looks and sounds a good laugh though and is harmless.
Bet she doesn't spend her days on a mountain bike website for men of a certain age though.
Anyone who can sing a little, and is reasonably good looking can be turned into a pop star. At least Lily Allen has bothered to be a little different - doing her own lyrics and being a bit more individual than the usual pop clones. Let's face it, pop music has never been about natural talent.
Of course Allen has 'talent' in the most abject sense of that word. That some find it acceptable to defend her as an [i]artist[/i] verges on the unutterably depressing. Worse, it also took an unreasonable amount of scrolling down to find the first post that even begins to gesture towards the depths of her inadequacy as a vehicle for anything remotely resembling pop music (thankyou Rusty Spanner for restoring my waning faith in humanity).
Allen stands for all that is lamentable in the world today.
Allen stands for all that is lamentable in the world today.
That's what I love about STW - everyone's sense of perspective. 😉