[Closed] Does anyone care what Barrack says?

Vote Leave event a week ago said UK small business does 6% of its trade with the EU but has to follow 100% of the regulations with all the associated costs and those are regulatuons which may or may not make sense for a UK domestic business.

those are regulatuons which may or may not make sense for a UK domestic business

Can we please have some examples of these regulations?

@br, understood I was assuming they where younger - if they own already good for them as prices will be going up strongly as a result of continued uncontrolled immigration. My scenario was Remain and the 3m EU immigrants was the number the Treasury/Tories used. You are also forgetting the risk of the UK funding an EU wide bailout, thats a lot of debt for your and my kids to be saddled with. I wonder when we'll get VAT on food as they do ?

jambalaya

Where will your children live when by 2030 there are at least 3m more people in the UK, how will the NHS and Universities cope ? How will they find a job when faced with immigrants very willing to work for low wages ?

I was assuming they where younger - if they own already good for them as prices will be going up strongly as a result of continued uncontrolled immigration.

Can we please have some examples of these regulations?

On another note the US hs already finalised a compensation deal with Volkswagen? In Europe nothing clear yet as whether cars will be repaired and/or compensation offered. Why is that I wonder ? Transport Select Comittee chair speaking now about how its been known for years that the lab tests are nonsense but EU interests have meant nothing has been done.

jambalaya - Member

My scenario was Remain and the 3m EU immigrants was the number the Treasury/Tories used.

Aye, and I did like the response to that paper from the Exit people. "All of this paper is complete rubbish! Except for the one bit we like, it's 100% reliable!"

but the £350m one they've chosen with good reason not least as our Rebate can be challenged and its frequently threatened.

No really 😀 😀

Nothing to do with the fact that it happens to be roughly 40-50% above the real figure 😉

@tmh, of course UK businesses would have to meet EU product regulations to sell there. No problem with that.

Your team mates either ignore this or have a very big problem with that. Plus it begs a pretty obvious question!

Maybe they will be living and working in another part of the EU.

Exactly, I have done that (France), my son has already done that (France) as has his girlfriend (Spain, Germany). The joy of freedom of movement - a brilliant idea!

To date, immigration has increased both the supply and demand for labour - you cant juts look at the supply side, however convenient. Hence it has not had negative impact on wages of "British workers" (whoever they are?), on the contrary it has benefitted them - individual anecdotes aside.

Those 3 million immigrants will help pay my pension.

Where will your children live when by 2030 there are at least 3m more people in the UK, how will the NHS and Universities cope ? How will they find a job when faced with immigrants very willing to work for low wages ?

So that's the main out argument is it? Foreigners coming over here, taking our jobs, filling our schools and hospitals, and presumably taking our women? It's pretty pathetic, not to mention arrogant.

Funny isn't it how on the one hand you say the economic effects of brexit won't be as bad as the stay camp say they will, but on the other you say the effects of EU immigration will definitely be as bad or worse as the leave camp say they will. How come you can be so certain on one but not the other?

How about the 10 year (?) argument about whether we could call chocolate chocolate, a total waste of business, civil servant and government time and money ?

So in another scenario linked to what Obama said. If the worst happens and sanity takes a holiday and el prezidenta Trump declares a raft of protectionist trade policies that hit car manufacturers etc. How far down the list would an independent UK be on the call answering in the white house?

There are 6 million more people in the UK than there were 15 yrs ago. I live in a house.

HTH

Well Michael was on form in The Times today

Gove wrote in The Times today: “The other countries will know that until a deal which suits us is reached we still retain a veto over their plans. So that gives us all the cards.”

They need some team badges with "No really" and Pinocchio on them.

Sorry Mike but trying to blackmail Europe is not one of your finer moments - like most Brexit arguments, falls over at the first step ie, qualified majority voting.

Its sadly reminiscent of watching adolescent kids trying to outdo each other in school debates - embarrassing if ocassionally amusing

How about the 10 year (?) argument about whether we could call chocolate chocolate, a total waste of business, civil servant and government time and money ?

How much actual money? Maybe it took 10 years because no-one was really bothered except the Sun/Mirror &co?

On another note the US hs already finalised a compensation deal with Volkswagen? In Europe nothing clear yet as whether cars will be repaired and/or compensation offered. Why is that I wonder ?

Maybe because the rules are different and the cars are also different.. just a hunch 🙄

Worst debater ever, Jam.

How will they find a job when faced with immigrants very willing to work for low wages ?

Did it occur to you that his children might actually BE the immigrants.....?

Re the costs to business, Brexit boys again love to quote selectively (the polite way of saying inaccurately/decetifully) from the Open Europe study (source of the claim that regulation costs us £600m a week.

Conveniently ignoring

If the UK were to leave the EU, the costs described above would not disappear overnight – much would depend on what path Britain took outside the EU. If the UK were to leave the EU and instead ‘become like Norway’ by joining the European Economic Area (EEA), [b] 93 out of these 100 costliest EU-derived regulations would remain in place at a cost of £31.4bn (94.3% of the total cost). [/b]This is because under EEA, many EU policy areas would continue to apply to the UK including financial services, social and employments laws, energy and climate change policies, and this is where the bulk of the regulatory cost stems from. [i][my point][/i]

Given that EEA membership comes without any formal voting powers in the EU institutions, the UK would lose its ability to both amend these regulations and shape new EU laws. [a trifling point 😉 ]

While the ‘Norway option’ does mean greater independence in certain areas – chiefly the repatriation of agricultural policy, regional policy, trade policy and justice and home affairs – overall, it would make little sense to leave one club only to join another with many of the same costly rules.

I do care what he says...

And he actually has done quite a lot given the Congressional opposition he has endured..., or at least some of it has happened on his watch.

Health Care, Cuba, moves towards Marriage quality, Drug legalisation, Financial policy. Gitmo is the major negative,

So - our both our major trading partners think we should stay. We'd have to wait 10 years to get a trade agreement with the US, and a Norway style agreement with the EU would lead to us having to pay as much as we do now and have open borders to EU citizens... And as we are still a manafacturing and trading nation...

And Boris is an opportunist untrustworthy but charismatic muppet.

I can only think of one pro-Brexit person I know personally who isn't one or more of Old, Xenophobic or a bit thick.

[i]I can only think of one pro-Brexit person I know personally who isn't one or more of Old, Xenophobic or a bit thick. [/i]

I don't know of anyone personally who is pro-Brexit, apart from one bloke I'm 'friends' with on FB - and tbh that is only for amusement at his daily 'rants', and he is definitely two of your three 🙂

I can only think of one pro-Brexit person I know personally who isn't one or more of Old, Xenophobic or a bit thick.

+1. Sadly they have been given the chance to f*ck up my kids lives (along with their own younger family members but are too thick/blinkered to realise that).

And Boris is an opportunist untrustworthy but charismatic muppet.

To think I liked him before this and have said hello to him when I have seen him cycling around the city. I wouldn't cross the street to p*ss on him if he was on fire now.

Describing people who want to vote for Brexit as thick and xenophobic is counterprouctive, there are prefectly valid arguments for Brexit as there were for independence for Scotland. However, where both movements have had difficulties is presenting what the world would look like afterwards - and this is because in both cases the relevant economies have become so intertwined with the other party that it is difficult to have a compelling forecast of what would happen. This gap in their prospectus will prove the undoing of the Brexiteers as it was for the Nats.

Anyone who write [url= http://capx.co/how-like-a-god-shakespeare-and-the-invention-of-the-world/ ]an article this good[/url] about Shakespeare is hardly stupid.

Back of the queue 😀 😀 😀

[i]The US is only negotiating one trade agreement at present. The ‘queue’ is not very long.

The US is currently negotiating one trade agreement. According to the Office of the United States Trade Representative, ‘The United States has completed negotiations of a regional, Asia-Pacific trade agreement, known as the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) Agreement and is in negotiations of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) with the European Union, with the objective of shaping a high-standard, broad-based regional pact’ (Office of the United States Trade Representative, 2016, link).[/i]

The US has agreed many trade agreements (20) with countries much smaller and certainly less wealthy than the UK and typically in around 2 years (1 year for Morocco, 2 for Australia and Chilie). The UK is a major export partner for rhe US with $120bn of goods and services representing 5.4% of US exports.

In all this time the US has not concluded an agreement with the EU ? Why is that ?

In all this time the US has not concluded an agreement with the EU ? Why is that ?

Because the EU is big enough and powerful enough that it doesn't have to roll over and agree to whatever the US wants?

Not sure if already posted but this makes interesting reading, trying to get some balance to the claim and counterclaim

FULLFACT.ORG "https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/leave_remain_the_facts_behind_the_claims.pdf"

Those above deliberately steriotyping Brexiters are making a very dangerous mistake if I may say so. At the Brexit meetings I have attended there have been significant numbers of young (late teens, eariy 20) volunteers. My local co-ordinator is a mid 30's tradesman. By steriotyping and underestimating your opponents in any election (or indeed any situation) is often a fatal error.

I would also add again that senior Labour figures such as Corbyn and McDonald have spent their political careers opposed to the EU - old maybe 😉 but not thick or xenophobic

@jimw thnaks for that, along with some other stw-ers I put a few quid their way to fund their Referendum work

By steriotyping and underestimating your opponents in any election (or indeed any situation) is often a fatal error.

Its posts that like that that make me consider your posts as satirical genius rather than the alternative.

Have you actually read it Jamba? Not exactly positive for either side, particularly the brexsists and the section on trade deals is particularly relevant to the last few comments on this thread about whether free trade agreements are likely.

JY sense of humour failure, I even put a winky thing-a-me-bob on to help everyone out ?

@jimw yes I have now Inwas just thanking you for PSA as I hadn't seen it. I am very open to what factcheck have to say, as posted I gave them a few quid with an open mind as what they may find. I strongly believe our massive trade deficit with the EU will be very much in our favour, the EU ismpretty sick economically at the moment and its getting worse - all plays into our hands imho.

With everything going so well in Europe, we have a far right candidate winning a landslide in the first round of their Presdential election eliminating the mInstream parties. He has hinted he may dissove Parliament if he wins the second round this forcing an early election. Add this to FN in France who look quite likely to eliminate Hollande/PS from next years Presidential election.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/25/austrian-far-right-partys-triumph-presidential-poll-turmoil-norbert-hofer ]Austrian Presidential Election[/url]

Apologies if this has been posted. Very funny, however all of the ECHR's "good bits" can be replicated in a domestic bill but with the broken bits fixed and without a court superior to our own. All voted on by ojr Parliament and subject to change if a future Parliament of any persuasion decides is necessary

I strongly believe our massive trade deficit with the EU will be very much in our favour, the EU ismpretty sick economically at the moment and its getting worse - all plays into our hands imho.

That is the reality, everyone who can do maths knows this*, only Brexiters think al this favours us
Its not a rationally well founded view its just misguided bullish posturing,
* without us they are harmed without them we are ****ed

€'s JY, look at the €'s - even the trade deficit with Germany alone will tell you how that discussion will go. You are confusing yourself with percentages and ignoring my point that Europe are on their knees economically and starring into the abyss with Greece and the migrant crises. The US doesn't want us to Leave as the whole EU could implode.

You are confusing yourself with percentages

My mistake 44 % is not considerably bigger than the 3% I feel so foolish now that i was so easily misled and confused. Forgive me

😆

You are confusing yourself with percentages and ignoring my point that

Neither Euopre nor the UK will recover if we present the wrong reasons for the weak economic environment, the fundamental cause is excess leverage - and the fact that we are now in a balance sheet rather than a normal recession - and hence the current policy mix based on unorthodox monetary policy won't work whatever Draghi pretends. That's the given. None of this is unique to Europe or the UK or even US, Japan and parts of Asia where the same patterns are evident albeit with regional variations.

Of course, Europe does have the added problem of a flawed currency project at its heart and the lack of fiscal union. That exacerbates other issues and makes structural adjustments in deficit countries appalling in terms of wages and unemployment. We are not part of that folly nor will we be. Well done Gordie and Dave.

So let's examine this abyss based in Greece and the migrants as causes and asses the magnitude. I will pass that over for fun at this point

1. Since we like percentages, what is the scale of the Greek issue in relation to the Eu economy? How has this changed?
2. What are the exposures to Greek debt now, how have they changed and who is at risk? Again quantifiable measures of risk would be helpful?
3. From 1 and 2 does Greece represent a systemic risk to the rest of the EU including the UK?
4. What is the scale of the migrant issue, where are the main flows from and why are they coming?
5. Leaving aside the moral and legal obligations that we have, from a purely economic perspective what is the impact on the EU and on the countries of origin?

An easy 5 for starters - then we can get back to the real problems in Europe.

As as supporter of the EU who has benefited greatly from the free movement of goods and labour I'm frustrated by exactly the same things as Jamby.

The EU has become a lobby-sensitive bureaucratic juggernaut thundering through the quiet lanes of Europe.

It is a sham of democracy with very little regard for the best interests of its citizens. The idea was a level playing field but the rules are such that countries have been given tools to create unfair advantage. The advantage going to the country with the lowest company taxes, the lowest level of investment in the welfare state, the most unfavourable conditions for workers, the lowest wages, the least investment in the future... .

The advantage going to the country with the lowest company taxes, the lowest level of investment in the welfare state, the most unfavourable conditions for workers, the lowest wages, the least investment in the future..

Good points Ed, but scrapping it or reforming it aren't options on the ballot.

Apologies if this has been posted. Very funny, however all of the ECHR's "good bits" can be replicated in a domestic bill but with the broken bits fixed and without a court superior to our own. All voted on by ojr Parliament and subject to change if a future Parliament of any persuasion decides is necessary

But I don't want a bunch of politicians changing what are deemed to be fundamental human rights - what broken bits are there in the convention?

As as supporter of EU freedoms who has benefited greatly from the free movement of goods and labour I'm frustrated by exactly the same things as Jamby.

+1 - yes, it's flawed in various ways

It is a sham of democracy

Ok

with very little regard for the best interests of its citizens.

Not so OK - you cannot simply ignore the very great benefits that have accurd to citizens eg safety, peace, basic rights, consumer protection etc.

The advantage going to the country with the lowest company taxes, the lowest level of investment in the welfare state, the most unfavourable conditions for workers, the lowest wages, the least investment in the future... .

Pretty much all falsifiable....

It would be nice if it were politicians changing human rights but in fact it's the non-elected commission.The main broken bit is that the elected representatives can be over ridden by the commission, and eurocrats have more real power than euro MPs. I doubt Brits would be happy if the Lords ruled the roost, only had to consult parliament and could override if they wished. The commission has to consult interested bodies (lobbies) before parliament so you have laws created by lobbies that parliament can do no more than rubber stamp.

Mm yes but the commission has no real power does it, because if they weren't too far the countries would just leave, or ignore them. Not quite the same as a government.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/25/ttip-vote-brexit-barack-obama-leave-eu-trade-deal ]Why TTIP isn't a good reason for Brexit[/url]

In terms of protecting citizens from pollution the Commission has rarely acted in the interests of public health and often followed the interests of lobbies.

Take car pollution. Public health experts are unanimous in attributing excess deaths to NOX and there is increasing evidence to say that diesel soot is carcinogenic. In Tokyo they simply banned diesel engines. But in Europe the car lobby proposed a set of standards and testing procedures that meant they could go on building and selling filthy diesel engines that poison us. If they had a testing procedure and standards that really protected public health there wouldn't be a diesel vehicle left on the road.

Here's my NOX and CO2 test procedure:

Cycle 1: vehicle at its maximum speed on an autobahn.
Cycle 2: cold start and driven from Bordeaux Merignac to Bordeaux Centre via Pessac by people chosen at random from the electoral register.

My soot test: A 1m3 bag is filled with exhaust gas with the engine under full load at 3000rpm. The whole contents of the bag are weighed and analysed.

Every big heavy Merc, Audi and BMW would produce horrific figures but a petrol Twingo would be fine (if you accept that the transition to electric vehicles and the clean production of electricity to charge them is going to take a few years and petrol cars are the least unhealthy solution till then).

How many years have doctors been telling the world (and the EU) that bisphenol A should be banned in food packaging? And yet the Commission has yielded to lobby pressure to go on poisoning us.

Frank Fields just spoke for Vote Leave. He referred to how Labour has lost 4m votes since the Blair peak and how the party has failed to engage with those traditional Labour voters worried about immigration. He also stated it was quite negative for Labour to campaign for the EU in order to protect workers rights as its an admission of failure. He of course pointed out that in every Parliamentary vote he can recall Corbyn, like him, has voted "against" EU related legislation.

@Edukator 🙂

See my post about VW, compensation agreed in the US already, in Europe with Germany's vested interest nothing yet - strange eh ?