[Closed] doctors on strike

What exactly do you mean by accountability ? I think all doctors would agree that they could get better at root cause analysis and become more like the aircraft industry. However see my previous post, how can you improve practice when you do not even have enough staff to do the minimum?

@ FunkyDunc - my comment refers to my experience some years ago and therefore prior to current staff shortages. Briefly I was repeatedly misdiagnosed by multiple GPs who failed to recognise a common condition. Due to the seriousness of this I contacted the regulator who were disinterested, I persevered and still received the same response. This is the same regulator that at the summing up of the Shipman enquiry was accused of behaving as a gentlemen's club. They've clearly not changed their ways. Have since learned that I'm not the only patient to have received this response.

Amongst those doctors who are doing sterling work there is an alarming number who aren't, both in general practice and hospital settings. My most recent appointment with a hospital consultant (joint head of dept) saw him tell me that he wasn't interested in my symptoms. Is this acceptable behaviour from a medical professional? I shall be taking this further with the hospital trust as well as him, they will also be told that I've discovered the reason for these symptoms thanks to private testing and a private doctor's interpretation.

This isn't about money, this is about attitude with some doctors treating their patients with contempt. It's just not good enough.

I'll stop there!

Edit: have derailed the thread so shall bow out.

Amongst those doctors who are doing sterling work there is an alarming number who aren't, both in general practice and hospital settings.

Can you quantify this, or is it just a rash statement based on personal bad experience with the NHS?

Surely your private consultant who provided diagnosis still works in the NHS, and they gave you a discharge letter which you could show to the NHS consultant?

FunkyDunc - it's mainly my own experience and not a rash statement.

In the past I have shown NHS doctors my private test results together with private doctors' (no NHS working) diagnosis, they've been dismissed and therefore ignored.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36126740 ]BMA "trying to bring down government"[/url]

Slight exaggeration maybe? Anyone mind if they managed it?

BMA "trying to bring down government"

Well I think they should ban any more Muslim doctors from entering the medical profession until we find out what's going on.

In the meantime we should all rally round the government and make it absolutely clear that we won't allow sharia law in the UK.

it's all newspeak

A cross party group of MPs made a proposal and Hunt rejected it as a "labour move".

For some reason the tory govt have picked this one issue as something they wont back down on

I have no idea how it ends but politics is certainly getting in the way.
blaming everyone but themselves for the events that have ensued.

Unnamed source - assume his PR guru-personally I cannot see how accusing them of "radicalising dr" and "trying to bring down the govt" in any way helps us reach a compromise or solution. Its just escalating the tension with shitty and false digs.

Major exaggeration a bit like the one about those nasty Tories privatising the NHS.

The Tories dont need the help of JDs, they are fine with Europe for the moment.....

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/25/the-tragic-naivety-of-immature-junior-doctors-and-their-strike/ ]Good piece by James Kirkup in the Telegraph[/url]

You spelt 'condescending' wrong

a bit like the one about those nasty Tories privatising the NHS.

Except there is quite a lot of evidence for that one - including written party policies and briefings. Including the one Jeremy Hunt co-authored.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-privatise-nhs-tories-privatising-private-insurance-market-replacement-direct-democracy-a6865306.html
http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/02/nhs-one-way-road-privatisation

Whereas I don't think there is much evidence that the BMA is some kind of lefty conspiracy to topple the government. (Though I don't think they'd be terribly upset if Hunt got the boot.)

That article by Kirkip accurately describes exactly none of the Jr doctors I work with!
(It seems to have been written entirely from planet Tory.)
Ironically most JDs are normally quite right of centre (apart from the part about wanting to help sick people).
They aren't even particularly fans of the BMA.
This dispute and especially the lies and deliberate misinformation spread by the government at the start about weekend deaths and ignoring the salary freeze for those on research, maternity leave etc have very much alienated and demoralised them.

Well, Clare Gerada thought it was a fair article. She is hardly pro Hunt.

The tragic naivety of immature junior doctors and their strike

Is the title; which then goes on to lambast doctors for saying insulting things to those with whom they disagree 🙄

He doesn't lambast, he uses some the things that said to him to illustrate the naivety - being accused by being naive isn't really insulting if you then present a cogent case - do you insult people if you say they are wrong?

If he'd used a lambastless headline he'd not come across so hypocritical then....

Kirkup's article is a bit immature and I'll informed isn't it , no accident and emergency care is being withheld , a cost neutral proposal that preserves enhanced rates for unsocial hours is not about the money . If anyone comes across in all this as politically inexperienced it is Hunt who continues to allow himself to be presented as the figurehead for this toxic fight.

The writer does not write the headline and does not have any say- the subeditor does - often a source of tension.

teamhurtmore - Member

Major exaggeration a bit like the one about those nasty Tories privatising the NHS.

[b][i]"Our ambition should be to break down the barriers between private and public provision, in effect denationalising the provision of health care in Britain"[/i][/b]

- Tory Health Minister Jeremy Hunt

So a sweep stake on how long it takes Mr Chunt and the Daily Mail to report the first avoidable death due to the Jnr Doctors? I give it to just before the 1 o'clock BBC news

[url= https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3727/Majority-support-junior-doctors-ahead-of-first-full-walkout.aspx ]the Doctors still have good support[/url]

From that torygraph piece...

many of them do not know what they are doing and do not understand the conflict they are now escalating.

Much as I dislike the govt, I think this is true. Likewise comments about the bma not realising the hours and how hard other folk who got good A levels actually work, without being part of the on average highest paid, most secure profession, and whose training is paid for mainly by the taxpayer, with no lack of people coming forward who want to do the job...

A corollary of what I'm saying might be a faster race to the bottom in the public sector (bad). But I'll be walking past some of those public school picketers (okay only half of them) later today, into an organisation which is shedding a third of its staff in the next year, compulsory redundancy payments under new cabinet office guidelines (clue: they haven't gone up.) As I say, no desire to race to the bottom, I just don't think they've understood their position or what they're taking on, for a bit more pay on Saturday (or whatever.) Either way, writing's on the wall they'll lose.

Likewise comments about the bma not realising the hours and how hard other folk who got good A levels actually work, without being part of the on average highest paid, most secure profession, and whose training is paid for mainly by the taxpayer, with no lack of people coming forward who want to do the job...

I'm sorry what are you trying to say here?

for a bit more pay on Saturday

[img] [/img]

That they've not understood where they stand.

Oh and the'bit more pay or whatever' sides were close to agreeing. What's the huge issue justifying strike?

I'm sorry what are you trying to say here?

Maybe the OP's trying to say that Doctors still have amongst the highest average earnings of any graduates 10 years after graduation, will continue to enjoy lifetime earnings of £4-5m and will also continue to retire with pension pots of £1-1.6m.

Many doctors are also the children of doctors and marry other doctors - putting them very firmly at the top of the list of wealthiest families - there's some truth in the adage "ever met a poor doctor?".

It's also worth noting that the position of many of the JDs is that unless they get paid more for saturdays (despite other workers in the NHS not getting this, and most other comparable highly skilled jobs also not getting this e.g. pilots), they will move to Australia and New Zealand.

Both of these moves are apparently principled moves by JDs but it's kind of ironic that their peers in these countries not only have to pay for their own education but in NZ have been scheduled on 7 day 24 hour rosters for the best part of 20 years, something the BMA continues to maintain is not possible here due to "safety".

That they've not understood where they stand.

Who, because I'm not sure who you were trying to describe? Which Jnr Dr has had their training paid by tax payers? Which career are you talking about with no shortage of applicants? Which Jnr Dr is part of the highest paid?

I don't hint you've understood in your bitterness of the government threatening your mystery job.

It's also worth noting that the position of many of the JDs is that unless they get paid more for saturdays (despite other workers in the NHS not getting this, and most other comparable highly skilled jobs also not getting this e.g. pilots), they will move to Australia and New Zealand

Look everyone 5 minutes is back but still doesn't get it.

From Roy Lilley (a criticof the govt/NHS mgmnt perspective)

"The great and the good have written letters, made statements and palavered about. None of the Royal Colleges have any clout. They live in a past when people used to listen to them.

Patients groups have vacillated, professional organisation's have danced around their handbags, affinity organisation's have been at their ineffective best.

The GMC have issued guidance to junior doctors thinking of joining the walk-out. In brief it says JDs should be sure there is cover and their absence will do no harm.

Useless. How is an SHO supposed to sort that out. If there is a disaster, some poor soul can expect the roof to come in on their career.

If this is the best the GMC can do its hard to know why they still exists. They claim to be a guardian of patient interests. If this is, truly, the case they should be speaking to the reality; a strike is a risk, it could do immense harm and if it does... put your registration and career in the shredder.

The DH will not back down over the contract. If they do they will be a sucker-punch for all the other NHS professionals who will soon be facing contract changes to accommodate 7-day working.

The BMA dare not give up. They face reputation damage and an exodus of members of they did. The strike is about their survival.

The walk-out is no longer the issue. It's what happens afterwards. What comes next? Perpetual strikes? New doctors are already signing the contract, Trusts are implementing it, work-place Guardians will be in place. The die-hards will still be waving placards, the majority pleased to see the shemozzle fizzle out."

I don't hint you've understood in your bitterness of the government threatening your mystery job

Que?

just5minutes - Member

....... most other comparable highly skilled jobs also not getting this e.g. pilots

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-hunt-asking-for-airline-levels-of-safety-in-hospitals-is-a-flight-of-fancy-a6848871.html ]I'm a junior doctor and my husband is a pilot. He flies a maximum of 100 hours per month, whilst I can work up to 91 hours in one week alone[/url]

.

[url= http://www.jstor.org/stable/29705433?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents ]Application Of Airline Pilots' Hours To Junior Doctors[/url]

[b][i]"To cover the work of six junior anaesthetists on an annual basis would require 26 doctors if they were working within the Civil Aviation Authority's guidelines".[/i][/b]

I just think the best will leave, with nurseries closed on Saturdays, JD parents with kids forced to work will do what?

The loss of progression whilst studying PhD etc means the best JDs will be deterred from entering research and will harm medicine in this country.

Maybe these changes will improve the care in the NHS, but as the government are entering into this change across the whole country without a shed of proof or a single pilot study to show it will, JDs and the BMA are right to oppose it.

The writer does not write the headline and does not have any say- the subeditor does - often a source of tension.

I certainly wouldn't choose to reference [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12093232/Strike-all-you-like-doctors-technology-will-soon-take-away-your-power.html ]this pisspoor headline[/url] in any sensible reporting. Pretty puerile stuff.

I do see some tactical naivety in the way the BMA JDC has handled this, and wonder whether their most potent negotiating advantage, the goodwill of the public, will wither in the months to come. From my past experiences covering previous BMA contractual negotiations, I don't exactly see them as righteous campaigners for the good health of the NHS.

And sadly for their members, most of whom are well-intentioned, I suspect this will be viewed by government as a kind of 'payback' for the shambles of the GP and consultant contracts, where even the BMA could not believe how easily ministers rolled over.

The GMC have issued guidance to junior doctors thinking of joining the walk-out. In brief it says JDs should be sure there is cover and their absence will do no harm.

Which they have done.

Useless. How is an SHO supposed to sort that out. If there is a disaster, some poor soul can expect the roof to come in on their career.

They do it everyday anyway, what do you mean by a disaster?

The DH will not back down over the contract. If they do they will be a sucker-punch for all the other NHS professionals who will soon be facing contract changes to accommodate 7-day working.

Opposed to the 7 days the NHS works currently.

The walk-out is no longer the issue. It's what happens afterwards. What comes next?

It's the what happens next that they are striking for the introduction of unsafe conditions it's not about Saturday pay.

New doctors are already signing the contract, Trusts are implementing it,

Trusts have refused to implement it, stop reading the Daily Mail.

Que?

You seemed afraid to mention your place of work.

This sums up the situation quite well, I think:

[img] [/img]

(hope it sizes legibly on here)

most other comparable highly skilled jobs also not getting this e.g. pilots

Last years oil priced based blip aside where no one recruited, medicine is now in 3rd place for graduate salaries ( 1, Dentistry. 2, Process engineering).

Neither works Saturdays as a rule unless it's overtime.

Ask yourself, do you really want medicine diluted further until the best candidates give up and figure they may as well do a 4 year course in engineering?

Ask yourself, do you really want medicine diluted further until the best candidates give up and figure they may as well do a 4 year course in engineering?

Or become a pilot.

I like this.
It's a graph, so of course I like it.

[img] :large[/img]

The loss of progression whilst studying PhD etc means the best JDs will be deterred from entering research and will harm medicine in this country.

This is disputable as I know quite a few scientists with PHDs from top hospitals and none were impressed by JDs research abilities.Then as a result of hospitals favouring JDs for research career progression over better, dedicated scientists, all the scientists I know left the industry

Pilots earn significantly less than Doctors and are mostly on pretty poor pension schemes as well. Nearly all of them already work 7 day 24 hour rosters - so it's unlikely many graduates considering medicine would see Aviation as a more rewarding career alternative.

Another.

[img] [/img]

Now that Telegraph article has explained that doctors can be replaced with an App I'm not so bothered any more 🙄

Salaries for more experienced pilots could range from £36,000 to £48,000 in a first officer role. The starting salary for a captain with a medium-sized airline may range from £57,000 to £78,000, while those with the major operators could earn from £97,000 to more than £140,000.

Seems pretty good to me the strict conditions they have means they can't work too many hours. Of course the roster is 24/7 planes fly 24/7.

They are not striking about working 7 days that already happens. I'm surprised no one has mentioned that yet.

[i][edit] Drac got the same quote and link first[/i]

I could live with that.

I could live with that.

Me too. No idea how accurate is though.

I think stoners graph nicely illustrates how the dispute isn't about pay

And dragon docs with PhDs make for better docs ime,
Replacing scientists with clinicians is just stupid...

Me too. No idea how accurate is though.

Probably as accurate as some of the figures about doctor pay that get bandied about.

Does it reflect some of the substantial additional costs novice pilots have to pay out of their salaries for in-job training?

Many people are still missing the point...

1) The "evidence" that people suffer because of the current way medical staffing is arranged simply isn't there. The authors of the paper Hunt misquoted have tried, in vain, to put him right.
2) Most of the barriers to 24/7 care come from other services in hospitals, not absence of Drs.
3) The whole contract change is "cost-neutral" and is reducing the pay of junior Drs who work more at the weekends, whilst increasing the pay of others.
4) We face a workforce crisis, for various reasons, and huge recruitment difficulties in various specialities, including General Practice. The behaviour of Hunt and the DoH is alienating and driving away a naturally conservative work force.
5) The changes at the other end of the career pathway to the way pension contributions are taxed, and to the way acute hospitals are organised are driving Consultants and GPs alike into retirement as soon as they can, when expertise and workforce could be retained longer.
6) GPs are earning less than they were before the "new contract" and working much harder, Most consultants have seen most of their private practice disappear (which I think is good) and they are exhausted by having been screwed over as JDs 30 years ago, then doing Consultant-led on call aged over 60.

You don't have to think Drs are badly treated or badly paid or to sympathise with them to see there is a real practical workforce issue here. The NHS is getting worse in so many ways since 2009-2010, and is at real risk here. Doctors will vote with their feet, or retire if they can.

Considering how unattractive some people think being a Doctor is Universities have always been and remain heavily oversubscribed. When you look at career earnings, pensions and job security its a very attractive career.

Does it reflect some of the substantial additional costs novice pilots have to pay out of their salaries for in-job training?

Just like some of the figures that get banded about for Dr's and the training they pay for I would say no.

Considering how unattractive some people think being a Doctor is Universities have always been and remain heavily oversubscribed. When you look at career earnings, pensions and job security its a very attractive career.

Not as attractive as the options abroad which is where many University applicants then go to.

[quote=jambalaya ]Considering how unattractive some people think being a Doctor is Universities have always been and remain heavily oversubscribed. When you look at career earnings, pensions and job security its a very attractive career.

X-factor is always "oversubscribed" as you put it and look at some of the shite that want to be a "star"

Just cause you want to be doesn't mean you can be.

Oh dear just5minutes is back 🙄

Please tell me how you got to earnings of £4-5m, I am really looking forward to my wife being a multi millionaire.

..and get your facts right about pension pots. The government has already capped them at £750k.

just5minutes - why does it bother you so much that some of the most highly educated/intelligent/trained people in the country are paid a reasonable wage?

Edit -

1) The "evidence" that people suffer because of the current way medical staffing is arranged simply isn't there. The authors of the paper Hunt misquoted have tried, in vain, to put him right.

and he is still trying to pedal it this morning, of course to try and make it more effective he is now talking about children suffering.

Not as attractive as the options abroad which is where many University applicants then go to.

I can see how frustrated JD are, when the Labour government put more money in and gave them a weekend/evening opt out many declined. JDs are being asked to work Saturdays so they see their working patterns going the other way.

As I posted on the other thread the Tories won the election with a higher nhs spending pledge than Labour (+£8bn pa vs £2bn). What is desperately needed now is an impartial and rational review of health service provision, what we have is unique but its not working and is not workd class when looking at the overall service. When you are pretty much the only country doing something a certain way it is not necessarily a good thing and deserves scruitiny. The NHS cannot sustain itself, there isn't enough money for what it is being asked to do now and in the future.

Minor point - "JDs are being asked to work Saturdays so they see their working patterns goingbthe other way"
You do know, as I suspect may have been mentioned somewhere on the internet, this already happens, and Sundays too! And bank holidays, and nights - who do you think does the majority of the medical cover in hospitals?

As has been mentioned elsewhere, Facebook I think I saw it - today and tomorrow see little more effect to the actual care provision than multiple times per year when medics rotate posts and senior cover is the mainstay of provision, or who complained about all the ops/ appointments cancelled for the extra bank holiday for the royal wedding? Must have missed that media storm.

Thats an efficient job market, there are still more than enough recruits Good friend of mine comes from a family of South African dentists, a few years ago every single one of the graduates from the Dentistry School came to the UK. It works both ways.

Dentists!

I can see how frustrated JD are, when the Labour government put more money in and gave them a weekend/evening opt out many declined. JDs are being asked to work Saturdays so they see their working patterns going the other way.

Try again. Jnr Dr's work weekends already.

Considering how unattractive some people think being a Doctor is Universities have always been and remain heavily oversubscribed. When you look at career earnings, pensions and job security its a very attractive career.

It might attract you... but people are leaving it, there is a real workforce recruitment and retention crisis, which increasing the number of medical students hugely over the years has not addressed.

And the current students have 5-6 years of student debt over them.

I was speaking to an eye surgeon acquaintance last week. Their service is falling apart. They cannot get adequate juniors and have vacant posts. They are getting no applications for a decent consultant job. Their waiting lists are going up, appointments are being cancelled. This is (beacuse of private practice) potentially a very high-earning speciality with limited on-call call outs. If they are screwed, we all are.

From entering medical school it would take 10 years to get to the Junior Stage and 16 to the Consultant stage.

You will get the NHS you pay and vote for. Well done there!

jambalaya - Member

Considering how unattractive some people think being a Doctor is Universities have always been and remain heavily oversubscribed. When you look at career earnings, pensions and job security its a very attractive career.

This crudely assumes that people are motivated to become a doctor for money. From the large portion of my friends that work in healthcare, teaching and other public sector and care related jobs, I can safely say this is not the case.

Is there room on this thread for a joke about a haemophiliac crossing a picket line, being struck by a brick thrown by striking doctors and bleeding to death while everyone shouts "Scab! Scab! Scab!" ?

If there is I'll try and think of one.

or who complained about all the ops/ appointments cancelled for the extra bank holiday for the royal wedding?

Mr Chunt did this himself earlier on in the dispute. BMA were asking him to come back to ACAS. He agreed at 5pm the day before the strike, at which point it was too late to reinstate elective services that had been cancelled for the following day.

Fwiw I agree with the last two posts from stoatsbrother.

My last post is mainly Roy Lilley's words, hence quotation marks, incorrect apostrophes and ref to SHAs not F2s.

Google "BMA cost of training" to get their fact sheet: over £500k to train a doc in 2013, mainly paid by the NHS.

"Highest average paid" key word is average meaning mean. Again you can do your own googling.

ut people are leaving it, there is a real workforce recruitment and retention crisis, which increasing the number of medical students hugely over the years has not addressed.

You sure about that?

[b]Registered doctors each year from 2006 - 2015[/b]
[img] [/img]

[b]Doctors added to the LRMP each year from 2006 - 2015[/b]
[img] [/img]

Yeah, but "cost of training" in that context actually means the cost of paying the doctor their salary. And I don't think that anyone can argue that doctors aren't working in that time.

In addition, that £500k on the BMA site that you quote also includes tuition and accommodation costs that are borne by the doctor, not the taxpayer.

Finally, a point on recruitment and retention of junior doctors. I spoke to a more junior doctor on one of my wards the other day, who informed me that only 46% of medical SHO posts in our Deanery had been filled this year. That's more than half of medical jobs that will be empty in August. That's a disaster.

Oh, and we didn't appoint any registrars in my specialty in 2014 and 2015 in my region because there weren't any appointable candidates...

[b]dragon[/b] Yep. That is registered Drs and includes those not working, retired but still on the register, the increasing number who have chosen to work part-time so provide less overall time...

And BTW the government's own equality assessment team says the new contact for JDs discriminates against women!

Now if you want to use your mad point-of-view-justifying skillz to look for vacancies and recruitment issues... feel free.

A friend in an excellent local practice told me last year when they were trying to recruit a new GP (and still are) that they had got to the stage where they would accept anyone who owned a stethoscope...

[url= http://www.hee.nhs.uk/our-work/attracting-recruiting/medical-recruitment/specialty-recruitment-round-1-acceptance-fill-rate ]Fill rates for specialty training decline dramatically in 2016[/url]

Core medical training decreased from 87% job fill rate in 2015 to 78% in 2016
Paediatrics 96% to 84%
Obs and gynae 100% to 91%
A+E 99% to 96%
Psychiatry regularly fills less than two thirds of its posts

[b]legolam[/b] thanks...

Good moment for Mr Hunt to pick a fight and demoralise JDs even more, isn't it?!

Good moment for Mr Hunt to pick a fight and demoralise JDs even more, isn't it?!

almost as if he's doing as much damage as he can, so that the good ol' private sector can step in and save the day.

That £8 bn that the Tories promised is going to be spent on private hospitals built with public money and some very, very expensive elective surgery.

Dramatically is over stating the case overall it has gone from 82% to 79%, but with only one comparison it is fairly meaningless, you'd need a good few more years to see a proper trend.

retired but still on the register

Well 6% are aged over 65, so say they are all retired, I can't see how that % would have fluctuated wildly over the years, so the general trend of increasing numbers of registered doctors is till valid.

Working part time well, that's almost certainly primarily due to an increase in women coming into the profession, so you want to ban part time working? It is a interesting point though that no one addresses about the NHS, as part-time working becomes more prevalent, then the tax payer needs to pay for more to be trained, as a country how do we address this?

Salaries for more experienced pilots could range from £36,000 to £48,000 in a first officer role. The starting salary for a captain with a medium-sized airline may range from £57,000 to £78,000, while those with the major operators could earn from £97,000 to more than £140,000.

The FOs will be on substantially less than the 36-48k for their first few years whilst repaying the >£100k cost of training, either to the airline or to their lender.

Yes, the starting salary for a captain is correct, but you'd need to be a pilot for probably 10 years to get the LHS.

For the majors, Virgin require you to be [u]in the company[/u] for about 10 years and BA [u]20[/u] for long haul (I accept that command times are reducing for short haul at BA - not sure what the pay is there, though)!!

Good pay eventually, but you'll have many hours under the belt to get that money. Factor in a couple of divorces too and the fact that you'll be totally burnt out well before 65 so early retirement is a must.

As above, numbers registered are not a useful guide.

We are going to 1 of 11 slots filled on one of our rota slots from August. That's in a major city hospital.

No hope of getting locums either as now the rates are capped they refuse to work in busy units.

The system is creaking more and more. Ironically staffing levels are relatively higher today than many days due to cancellation of elective work.

Miker sounds very similar to doctors then.

Well 6% are aged over 65, so say they are all retired,

Nope. Some are still working even if they are not they can remain on the register.

Good pay eventually, but you'll have many hours under the belt to get that money. Factor in a couple of divorces too and the fact that you'll be totally burnt out well before 65 so early retirement is a must.

What about pilots?

Good moment for Mr Hunt to pick a fight and demoralise JDs even more, isn't it?!

Well 6% are aged over 65, so say they are all retired, I can't see how that % would have fluctuated wildly over the years, so the general trend of increasing numbers of registered doctors is till valid.

Working part time well, that's almost certainly primarily due to an increase in women coming into the profession, so you want to ban part time working? It is a interesting point though that no one addresses about the NHS, as part-time working becomes more prevalent, then the tax payer needs to pay for more to be trained, as a country how do we address this?

[quote=Jon Taylor said]
That £8 bn that the Tories promised is going to be spent on private hospitals built with public money and some very, very expensive elective surgery.

Fact or supposition ?

I don't want to go back over what I have written before but the main thing I want to say today is that it is the specific jobs that are going to lose out way worse than others that makes the new contract so unfair. Hospital-based jobs are already awful rotas to work. This contract goes out of it's way to target those same specialties that rely so heavily on out of hours work. These guys should be the ones recompensed the most and given the biggest incentives to be away from their family, life, happiness for essentially their whole career. We were all struggling on until this new contract came along. It now makes it untenable for the manner of work we are asked to do.

10% drop in medical registrar applications means hospitals across the country losing decision-making people through the evenings, nights and weekends. Same goes for surgical registrars, O&G, all specialties that have unpredictable and persistent patient flow. Out hospital are getting into trouble for trying to bully GP trainees into working the medical registrar rota despite them repeatedly saying they do not feel safe doing it and they are not adequately trained. Hospitals are desperate to cover these shifts already. I should say this is in Scotland and not actually affected by the strikes. Think what further discincentive will do to this.

Those arguing against us in this argument cannot understand what it will mean for their own care should they need to go to hospital during these times. You must understand this is personal to each and every one of us, doctor or not. I'm not sure we have got this message across enough..

[quote=speedstar said]I'm not sure we have got this message across enough..

That seems to be the case. We've heard it's not about money, then it is about money. About weekend working but then we're told doctors already work weekends.

Is it down to doctors currently getting a substantial salary premium when working "unsocial hours" and the new contract reclassifying the "unsocial hours" definition such that the salary premium will go ?

Is it down to doctors currently getting a substantial salary premium when working "unsocial hours" and the new contract reclassifying the "unsocial hours" definition such that the salary premium will go ?

No.

Oh, and we didn't appoint any registrars in my specialty in 2014 and 2015 in my region because there weren't any appointable candidates...

This crudely assumes that people are motivated to become a doctor for money. From the large portion of my friends that work in healthcare, teaching and other public sector and care related jobs, I can safely say this is not the case.

[quote=Drac said]Is it down to doctors currently getting a substantial salary premium when working "unsocial hours" and the new contract reclassifying the "unsocial hours" definition such that the salary premium will go ?

No.

Well it certainly seems to be a part of it.

From Auntie http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980

How is the contract changing?
Basic pay is to be increased by 13.5% on average.
But that comes at a price: other elements of the pay package are to be curbed, including what constitutes unsociable hours.
Day hours on a Saturday will be paid at a normal rate, while extra premiums that are being offered for night and the rest of the weekend are lower than what is currently paid.
Guaranteed pay increases linked to time in the job are also to be scrapped and replaced with a system linked to progression through set training stages.