I know a few people who have just started FY1. Some are doing 15 hours a day, with the remaining 9 spent commuting, eating and sleeping. Others doing 12 days straight with two days off. No doubt they enjoy the work, but is it at the cost of anything else they might enjoy?
My partner is going to be starting this nonsense at some point. Does it get any better? Are there any doctors who manage to have a reasonable life outside the hospital? From here it all seems pretty grim. The stats comparing alcoholism, depression, divorce etc between doctors and the average public are not encouraging either 🙁
Some are doing 15 hours a day, with the remaining 9 spent commuting, eating and sleeping. Others doing 12 days straight with two days off.
Sounds about right! A friend of mine has just completed her FY1 and FY2 training and had exactly the same experience - worked way more hours than she was supposed to (responsible for making sure patients got the treatment they needed and doing all the paperwork afterwards - just not enough hours in the day); worked none stop during 'on-call' and nights so worked 14 hour shifts regularly; couldn't book any holidays as the doctors were expected to swap shifts in order to create holidays, so lucky to get more than 2 days off at a time, usually just one day off a week. Your GF needs to remmeber she is still in 'training', and she will be sh*t on for all the worst jobs and longest hours.
- FY1 is the hardest time of all so don't expect this!No doubt they enjoy the work
The upside is Yes. As I said my friend has just finished her FY2 and started her specialisation. She now gets every weekand off (for 3 months, until they allow her to work on call and unsupervised) and she is actually loving the job. Really. And she gets paid well too. So in the long run, it seems the NHS do eventually give you some work-life balance, just not for the first 3-7 years!Does it get any better?
Good luck!!
How did it get like this? Are hospitals exempt from the EU working directive? It seems like a profession which attracts incredibly competitive people, who put more and more into it to get ahead. It can't be healthy.
I do quite like this one, hope we can battle through it 😐
I know several doctors (30-35ish age-wise) - they all seem to live just fine and mostly don't work silly hours though when they were younger and doing the silly hours it was hard.
Bugger the medics! What about us poor badly done to (well badly paid, at least) nurses?
It was a bit tough when my wife was a junior, especially A&E rotation and MRCP exams. But she made consultant by 31 (12 months ago) and now pretty much works 9 - 5 five days a week.
Glad to hear that the work-life balance seems to get a bit better once the first few years are over - I'll let my mate know!!
Mowgli, since all her colleagues will be in the same situation, she should get plenty of support from the people she went to Uni with. I hope you both make it - remember it will only be really bad for two years and it also depends on her choices of placement. Anyone, no matter what their career choice, can end up in a crap job for a few years! I would note, if she is thinking of doing A&E long-term then encourage her to try a placement - from experience it is the worst for work-life balance because of the shifts, although it can also be one of the most interesting jobs.
Really, best of luck to you both.
The early months-years [b]are [/b] hard work because it's a pretty steep learning curve, and the reality is a job (on the wards) that will take [b]me[/b] 5 minutes to sort out (or even dismiss as not important) will take a [b]new FY1[/b] about 40 minutes because they're new/they don't know the hospital/they panic.
All juniors are like it at first. It's obvious that the longer you work, the better you get. Granted, the responsibility increases, but you get better at dealing with that too!
I do love my job, but I realise that it is just a job, and I'm not willing to give up every hour of my day (working late/commuting etc) at the expense of life outside of the hospital (family/playtime etc).
The great thing about medicine is that it suits all sorts - if you are a workaholic then there's jobs for you, if you hate talking to patients - become a pathologist, and you can always change you mind (carreer wise) after a time and swap specialty too ('the man' will have you believe this is bad for your career, but that's all scare tactics...)...
DrP
One thing that causes a real pain, and is evident nation wide, is that there is actually a [b]massive shortage of doctors[/b] (or trusts aren't willing to fund the necessary numbers). This often leaves rotas operating on the bare minimum staffing levels, so any annual leave really does become near on impossible to take, or you end up shafting your colleagues....
Personally I don't think the way this side of personell organisation is safe or acceptable, but I'm forever coming up against managerial brick walls with this one...
DrP
I'd hesitate to draw too many parallels, but teachers often feel they should put in extra hours that they are not paid for, otherwise their colleagues or students will suffer. A difficult thing to address I suppose, as whatever you say, it's not [i]just[/i] a job, because it affects other people so directly. If it's always been underfunded, I guess there is no prospect of more doctors any time soon? There's no shortage of people wanting to study it at University!
It's only going to get worse now that nice Mr Cameron's calling the shots, unfortunately. Just been informed that the trust I work for has got to cut 43 % of its budget over the next three years. Happy days!
My other half is also a doctor, works pretty hard at times but when her team is working well together it can be a normal job. She's getting on for a consultant now and the work doesn't get easier, just different. She did choose to be a med-reg though, her brother and wife have both picked specialties that are much more 9-5.
The 48hr week is supposed to apply, but ends up making a mess of the rota and so the majority do extra hours to ensure patients are looked after.
It's a stressful job, I'm not sure the drinking/divorce etc rates are that much worse than comparable jobs. Also a LOT of doctors are married to other doctors and clashing shifts etc don't make for a happy home life. I'm happy to be the flexible half of the relationship and to adjust my week to suit.
Remember that more weekends working for her equals more guilt free biking for you!
My wife is currently ST2, basically 4th year in and on a contracted 8 year job.
What I have found is that FY1 & 2 were very hard as she was the basics of job and getting used to lack of sleep, stupid long hours, no lunch, no dinner etc etc.
ST1 was more settled, now knows the job, copes with the shifts etc, but gets more frustrated with just doing service provision and not getting proper training (due to lack of doctors, and compulsory 48hr weeks which make a mockoray of the rota, but the reality is that they still work much more than 48hr weeks).
ST2 started this year, will probably need to work weekends, and none rota days to get the surgical experience she wants/needs to become a consultant.
She says that when she gets to full Reg status the hours should become more predictable and stable.
Cons of the job for you
- We are lucky my wife is on an 8 year contract so it means we have been able to set up a base in West Yorkshire (still means she might be posted to any hospital which could be up to 2hr commute away) Most Dr's in training have to re-apply every year for the next stage of training so you could end up any where in the country to get the job you want.
- Being a Dr is expensive! My wife probably spends about £2k of her own money each year on courses, plus exams, plus accomodation. Plus although the salary is good, when you work it out per hour it really is a well below average salary. In fact many FY1 can earn less than minimum wage.
- Holidays it can be very difficult to book holidays in advance, as rota's tend to only come out a few weeks before they start.
- It can be frustrating when your partner works such long hours and weekends, and you can see the negative affect it has on their physical and mental health.
How your relationship is affected depends completely on her attitude to work, and what specialty she/he decides to pursue. My wife wanted to do Plastics, but she knew that we would be moving house eery year chasing the best jobs, and I would not see her that often as she would have to work extra hours beyond all those already needed as its such a competitive specialty.
So my advice would be work out what your partner wants to do first, that will have a big bearing on how hard/easy your life is for the next few years.
If you want to know anymore let me know.
It has changed a lot since I worked in hospitals. (GP for about 18 years now). In answer to the OPs title. There is a very happy life [i]outside[/i] hospital. My mates who are Consultants seem much less happy to recommend medicine as a career than those who are GPs.
One thing. Speciality choice is [i]vital[/i] to what your life is going to be like at the end of training. Some specialities have very onerous on-call commitments. Some don't. And it isn't always the ones which have a lot of scope for private work which are onerous. Your partner should not enter a speciality training scheme unless he/she can see people at the end of the process who seem to be enjoying the job and having a reasonable life.
MrsGrahamS (specialist registrar - the old way) snickered knowingly to herself when she read this thread.
Suffice to say she doesn't think FY1 is the hardest time.
Suffice to say she doesn't think FY1 is the hardest time.
Apologies if my comment came across a bit off. I was trying to emphasise that, at least to begin with, the OP's partner might not enjoy her work. And from the experience of my friend, in the present training scheme, her first few months of FY1 and her A&E rotation were the hardest for her in terms of coping with the job, feeling unsupported and have no time outside of work to deal with the stress of the job. I would be interested to know if MrsGrahamS thinks that the job gets harder later on, the work-life balance is harder to deal with later on, or is she referring to the new scheme, where the meds trained in the old scheme perceive that the new trainees have been sold this idea that they should be working 9-5? (I say the latter because both my parents are Doctors and have quite a lot to say about my friend's expectations on working hours! But I hear both sides of the story and I do think that the new system is understaffed so the new trainees do have to work all of the hours rota'd whereas 'in the old days' you had to live in the hospital but at least you could usually take breaks during night shifts)
I know I am not going to get away with this post, but I'll have a go anyway.
Young doctors love a moan, don't they? Particularly when they all get together in a group. Pity the poor non-doctor who has to sit and listen to them harp on about how hard their lives are.
There is a twist in the tail of every story, but you seldom hear doctors mention the twist in their sorry tail. Yes they might work 12 days straight with two days off and then another 7 days, but then...BAM...3 weeks off.
Im sorry. I'm not wanting to have a swipe at doctors. They are a remarkable bunch of people, doing a remarkably challenging job. But it can be very difficult, as an outsider, to listen to a group of very lucky people moan about how bad their life is.
Sorry, sorry.
Thanks for your comments guys. Although not exactly encouraging, it's a start.
Cheers
don't worry, the first few years are hard work, but then you're on the gravy train and it's buckets of cash all the way*.
why didn't my school's career advisor tell me about this? bitch.
(*some generalisations have been made)
yes, the training is hard, and yes, your OH will struggle to find the right post in the right place - but unlike more or less every other profession, there [i]is[/i] training, there [i]is[/i] progression.
i know about a dozen medics - they're all about 30, they're all now either GP's, consultants, or Surgeons. they work about as hard as any other 30yr old with a career, but they earn a teensy weensy ikkle bit more.
i know they've trained hard, and they do good work (except GP's obviously), and they do earn their money, but they're also slightly good at moaning about it all.
you'll both be fine.
konagirl: don't really want to go into it too much on here, but: her perception is that "new" doctors expect to work far less than she had to at the same time, but conversely they are unfairly expected (by the new system) to gain the same amount of practical experience while working less hours and spending less time overall in each training post. So basically she has mixed sympathies for them.
(that's me putting words in her mouth - bur we've talked about it a lot)
She is currently on maternity leave and says that she can now see just how much the NHS has completely taken over her life in the past decade. (long shifts, unsociable hours, forcing us to move house/country, constant training, stress etc)
Yes they might work 12 days
straight with two days off and then another 7 days, but then...BAM...3 weeks off.
Erm... well I've never seen MrsGrahamS get 3 weeks off in her entire career!
It is/was quite common for her to do long runs of shifts, say 12 days of 8 till 8. But she'd typically get 2 days to recover then back at it.
She now gets every weekand off (for 3 months, until they allow her to work on call and unsupervised) and she is actually loving the job.
That'll be the gassing, then? Only specialty that does that.
On the whole, the hours aren't as bad as they were in 1992, or even when Mrs RBIT was a PRHO in 1998. I'm not going to say they're better than when I was a PRHO in 2001 as the New Deal came in then, and the difference between 56 hours a week then & 48 a week now (averaged over 6 months) isn't much. The problem is that the rotas are often pretty antisocial in order to maintain 24h cover with a limited number of people (Anaesthetics, Paeds & A&E are probably the worst offenders in this regard - my current rota has 5 people on it). The PRHO used to be a pretty much vertical learning curve; it won't be like than any more as FY1s are much better supported (at a cost of not really being allowed to do very much) than we were.
I've never seen a rota as Dair describes, unless that incorporates fixed annual leave. Doing a week of 12h night shifts then having three days off is more my recollection.
Anyone who is a consultant at 30 is a psychiatrist as if you qualify at 23 then do two years' foundation training & 7 years specialty training you will be 32 (Gen Adult psych is 5 years rather than 7). Those of us on the old system often had a bit more of a roundabout journey; I'm 33 in three weeks and have another two years to go, though Mrs RBIT started was appointed to her consultant job at 32 (just). The money (while I'm not going to pretend I'm badly paid) isn't as good as you think, especially when compared to dentistry/law.
It's a stressful job, I'm not sure the drinking/divorce etc rates are that much worse than comparable jobs.
They are. The suicide rate is higher too, especially in anaesthesia.
Also a LOT of doctors are married to other doctors and clashing shifts etc don't make for a happy home life. I'm happy to be the flexible half of the relationship and to adjust my week to suit.
Actually, it's a mixed blessing. When we were both trainees, we occasionally had weeks when didn't see each other at all despite living in the same house, but it does make it easier being married to someone who understands the pressures of the job, which are unlike anything else.
Andy
The suicide rate is higher too, especially in anaesthesia.
Ironic!
Ironic!
How do you mean?
Andy
Due to gas leakage? modifies neural receptors over time.
The suicide rate in anaesthesia is probably related to our access to, and expertise with, extremely effective drugs to kill yourself with.
Certainly been tempted on some long weekends on call....
MrsGrahamS here: I hate to be annoyingly positive, but I love my job. It's why I still do it after 10 yrs. We aren't the only folk stuck doing shifts, although working from Friday morning till Monday evening was always a killer. I'm glad to say that I've not worked those sort of shifts in years! However the three weeks off comment is utter nonsense. I managed 3 weeks for our honeymoon, but I had to call in every favour I could to swap all my shifts!
But I have worked long hours. I don't know any current FY1's who have done as much. Thus I do get a little cheesed off to hear the newbies telling everyone how hard they've got it. They don't work as many hours now as their equivalents did ten years ago. As G points out that means they have less time to learn their craft. Thus they are often more stressed doing the same work with less experience.
Graham and I have sacrificed a lot - I'm always later home than I promise faithfully to be. I cancel weekends when someone calls in sick, can never commit to holidays, am always working Christmas and have moved to a different country from my husband for my career. But I chose to do it. And I get paid handsomely for the priviledge of doing the job I love. I've been lucky that my husband is amazing. But the divorce rate is what it is for a reason.
Would I do the same again. I don't know. I now have a daughter. Let's see how life goes. It's going to have to be different....
Nice to see a feair few medics on here - let's all meet up and have a moan... 😉
I fully agree that when a group of medics get together, invariably they have a moan, either at work/patients/managers..
I'm not sure why this is - probably a coping strategy (it is for my group of medic friends), as generally, we're in the public's earshot the whole time, so don't really have the luxury of having a 'mini rant' at work, so it often builds up and 'explodes' round the dinner table!
It's often funny to hear 'outsiders' perceptions of medics - especially with regards to pay. The first thing i'll say is "i don't do it for the money" as if i was that way inclined I certainly wouldn't be a doctor - if you take the average medic, at 30, with their post grad qualifications ,and their intelligence/'get up and go', most of them could earn a LOT more in ore 'cut throat' industries - but generally they don't want to, hence becoming doctors....
I'm actually at a point in my life, although still young, where I'd rather be working LESS, to spend time with my family. Obviously I'd accept a lower pay for less hours, and being a doctor that 'lower pay' is still a fairly significant amount, but it's not 'big bucks' by 'london wage' standards.
Being a doctor is great fun, and your other half obviously has an idea that it'll be hard, but very few things in life that are easy are rewarding in the long term are they?
I think that to remain happy as a doctor you really do need to strike the [b]'work/life'[/b] balance perfectly. This is either with a long term plan (part time worker for example) of be regularly reviewing your situation and correcting the imbalance.
Typical example - my rota is very short staffed, so I'm always being offered weekend locum work. The pay is pretty good (the take home would be enough to buy a decent set of forks after just one weekend), but the question I'll always ask myself is "what is time with my family worth" - 99% of the time the answer will be 'priceless', and as such I'll decline the extra work.
Some 'non doctor' colleagues will think I'm mad for turning down that money - I'd think I'm mad for giving up another weekend with my son, after having missed the last 2 due to nights and other shifts......
If your other half really does have concerns/fears then feel free to eMail me, or probably best is to try to speak in person to older colleagues/friends that are in the same situation?
Stay safe and stay healthy kids - physician, heal thyself.....
DrP
I'm thinking more and more that I'd like to retrain as a medic, though I'm not sure I could face a year of pre-med and 4-5 years degree without an income.
But, I have a newborn daughter, and I need to earn for her and Mrs North. So that's a dream I shall have to let fly away.
I certainly don't consider the hours worked by hospital doctors to be excessive (I've done plenty of monstrous hours when I worked as a private practice solicitor), though in fairness errors have the potential to be more damaging.
Certainly is an attractive career, though. Enjoy it, everyone. And thanks, as well, for doing what you do. The world needs more medics than lawyers..!
(I shall refrain from making comments about medics calling themselves "doctor" when they don't have a real doctorate... 😉 )
You don't need a doctorate - just a stethoscope around your neck, and a 'bam-chicka-wow-wow' when you walk into a room.....
😉
DrP
ourmaninthenorth - what do you class as monstrous hours ?
FY1s do not do monstrous hours. Their hours are limited by EU Working Time Directive to an average* of 48 per week or the employer gets fined. Long hours ie 120 per week disappeared years ago.
*It's important not to forget this word in any discussion of junior doctors hours.
Hmm yes, I think my wife only averages about 70-80hours a week now... she doesn't know she's born!
Of course EU directive doesnt include doing the voluntary hours at the start and end of shifts, or the extra days put in with no pay just to get the surgical training needed.
EU durective... Lol!
Didn't uk gov try to make doctors exempt from it because there was no way the NHS could function if they stuck to it.
Well guess what: that still applies!
Most docs I know work considerably more than the eu limit and are openly told to be "creative" with the hours that they record when they are being auditted.
EU directive doesnt include doing the voluntary hours at the start and end of shift...
Nor does it include time at home spent doing clinical audit work, writing research papers, preparing case presentations, organising rotas, studying for exams, reading journals...
the extra days put in with no pay just to get the surgical training needed.
That's what she gets for choosing the wrong side of the blood-brain barrier 😛 I think this is one surgical juniors suffer more from, though we all end up doing stuff outside working time (says he, attempting to do ICM case reports) but I'd always assume that was normal for the professions. The good news is that it doesn't end as a consultant if Mrs RBIT is anything to go by.
Didn't uk gov try to make doctors exempt from it because there was no way the NHS could function if they stuck to it.
Yes. As apparently has happened in the rest of Europe. We will all pay for this; the closure of services in a lot of smaller hospitals is because they can't staff eg. paeds rotas, without which you can't have consultant-led obstetrics etc.
Lactic - good to see I am not the only anaesthetist on here (though I'd have been surprised if I was, given the number of cycling gasmen I know).
Andy
EU directive doesnt include doing the voluntary hours at the start and end of shifts
And herein lies the 'problem'...
EWTD is an average over 8 weeks, and as stated only counts rota'd hours.
Example:
1 - One day I come in at 0830, and leave at 1900 (due to work emergency etc). My rota says I work 0900-1700. If I fill in a diary card (form of monitoring) over this peroid, [b]I [/b]get 'told off' for working longer than I should without my consultant's permission....
2 - I work 7 rota'd nights ,where I'm scheduled for 7 shifts of 13 hours. This = 91hrs, plus the unscheduled hours... as the EWTD takes an average ,this is seen as fine.
I'm not overly fussed by either of the above situations as it is what it is, but the EWTD isn't the 'saviour of anything'...!
DrP
Great innit?
The guy flippin burgers in MaccyDs can't work more than 8 hours, but the bloke replacing your left lung might have already been on for 70+ hours that week and be at the end of a 13 hour shift.
And obviously if he makes a mistake he'll be sued for malpractise!
I'd have to agree with DrP. Rota'd hours never match actual hours. Their idea of voluntary hours is completely different to mine. Apparently every now and again we get to finish early and it all averages out 🙄
don't all doctors get weekends off? surely staff nurse is a much harder job, having to deal with both patients AND doctors? 😀
(double post)
don't all doctors get weekends off?
Having worked three out of the last four, I'm not sure that deserves comment. 🙄
Andy
GrahamS - Member
MrsGrahamS (specialist registrar - the old way) snickered knowingly to herself when she read this thread.Suffice to say she doesn't think FY1 is the hardest time.
Agreed!
COI specialist registrar. First child due in 7 weeks. Final exams for fellowship 6 weeks. Actually riding my bike tomorrow for the first time in weeks rather than reading the forum while on call and wishing I was riding...!