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Must admit I have done my fair share of shopping from Amazon but late last year I done my best to avoid and this article just confirms what is killing real jobs/shops and not forgetting their tax avoidance 😥
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/ed6a985c-70bd-11e2-85d0-00144feab49a.html#slide0
The problem with ethical purchasing decisions is being informed - are you just going to boycott the businesses that the media spoon feeds us the dirt on, the Vodafones, the Amazons, the Googles, or will you do your own due diligence on every supplier you choose to use?
Do you know whether the local shopkeeper is paying his taxes correctly, or does he pay staff cash-in-hand (avoiding national insurance)? Do you know if the friendly plumber you talk to down the pub does work for cash, avoiding VAT? Do you know what your pension funds are invested in? Do any of those firms have involvement in the arms trade? Or Israel (if, for example, those are issues that concern you)?
It does seem to be a bit "villain of the month" with which big businesses are being lambasted at any one time.
On the other hand:
Internet shopping has greatly improved choice and price competition and enabled small shops to gain a world wide audience.
Even we benefit from flogging our used/unwanted bike stuff on the internet.
So its not all bad news.
Not really, sounds like they're pretty successfully implementing Lean manufacturing techinques and properly managing productivity whilst eliminating the potential for human cockups. It's why they're cheap, you as the consumer don't have to pay for all the non value added work dealing with the problems normal business just pass on to the customer in the sales price. It's what most manufacturing and supply chain businesses aspire to (although few get beyond the talking). Sounds like some employees are experiencing a bit of a culture shock at being expected to work through out the shift rather than the way it is in a traditional business where real productivity levels are nearer 50%.
As fot the tax avoidance, they're a business, it's the politicans who've totally dropped the ball on that.
Nothing in the article suggested they were doing anything illegal (only got half way through to be honest) or imoral as far as I could see.
As for killing real jobs, utter dribble, Amazon jobs are real jobs, by real jobs do you mean jobs where people get high wages for low productivity.
Get used to it, Lean is the only way the West will compete with the low wage economies of the East. Plus consumers don't want to pay for a company to be wasteful and inefficient. The central tenet on Lean manufacturing is to only do what the customer wants, assembling something is what the customer is paying for, moving it from A to B around the warehouse several times or spending half an hour looking for it because someone's put it on the wrong shelf is not what people want to pay for.
Ironically from personal experience this sort of approach is usually most stubbornly resisted by middle managers rather than the people at the sharp end (remember it is usually the shop floor staff who add the value, all the management layers are non value added cost). It's those managers who have the most to lose, suddenly their effectiveness at making their staff productive can be questionned. A managers role is to make their employees job easier and faster (through process improvement, not a big stick), if they're not doing that they're not justifiying their existance.
so you think their tax avoidance strategy is a good thing then?
The world works in funny ways when financial gain is involved.
not as funnily as the singletrackworld though.
What worries me is that its seems that this is the only type of job creation politicians crow about nowadays - minimum wage jobs on short contracts. I can't imagine anyone on MW creating much demand on the wider economy, I'd struggle to live beyond substance levels, I'd imagine.
Not defending Amazon, but their website also helps smaller businesses by enabling them to trade on there. No idea how badly they sting them for fees etc though.
dirk_pumpa - Member
so you think their tax avoidance strategy is a good thing then?
I would guess that if any options were presented to you that would result in you [i]legally[/i] paying less tax, you'd turn them down flat?
If so, I would suggest that you'd be in a fairly small minority; I don't know of a single person who'd turn away the opportunity to pay less tax legally. I certainly wouldn't.
Flame me for being unethical, I really couldn't give a toss. I've grown sick and tired of seeing my taxes squandered by government on utterly useless IT systems for the Police, the NHS, and others, that cost tens of billions of pounds, failed to come online, and were scrapped, and on a hopelessly ill-advised plan to set up regional control centres, for the emergency services, that also failed to come into use, and sat empty and idle at a cost to me, the tax-payer, of tens of thousands of pounds a year, before being sold off.
^^^^ with you, if i could pay less tax legally i would
If someone said to me that I could pay less tax but others on much lower incomes would pay more I [b]would[/b] turn them down flat.
We're not [i]all[/i] Tories, regardless of what CallMeDave says...
i also disagree alot with the opinion that online shopping has pushed high streets out of business due to pricing, i think it runs alot deeper than just pricing (althou i expect that does pay a large part)
i personally feel alot of the time i buy online for convinience not for cost sometimes even if its the same price online ill be it online so i dont have to track into town, finding somewhere to park, battle thought town etc etc.
its just soooo much more convinient
If someone said to me that I could pay less tax but others on much lower incomes would pay more I would turn them down flat
but its ok for someone on a lower income to want people on a higher income to pay more ?
Some yanks give their views
http://www.indeed.com/forum/cmp/Amazon.com/s-company-culture-at-Amazon-com/t11124
However, it's on a forum so not real life.
If someone said to me that I could pay less tax but others on much lower incomes would pay more I would turn them down flat
but its ok for someone on a lower income to want people on a higher income to pay more ?
Oh do shut up, higher tax rates are about ability to pay and social responsibility. The rich do quite well out of poor people. They buy stuff, and do other stuff for cheap.
CountZero - MemberI don't know of a single person who'd turn away the opportunity to pay less tax legally. I certainly wouldn't.
You should check out some of the political threads, there are plenty of prolific posters that are totally against it.
😆
Oh do shut up.
please done tell me to shut up when im voicing an opinion i have the same rights are you to voice them.
Don't companies have a legal obligation to maximise profit for shareholders? That means if they can pay less tax, they have to. Change the law. Don't invest.
Amazon is killing jobs?
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Right enough, the new building at Dunfermline went up by magic and is staffed by trained hamsters 🙄
I was in HMV today, they nearly went down the tubes blaming a lot of their woes on the likes of Amazon. HMV are a record shop, so can someone explain to me the 5 pinball machines along the back wall?
Maybe the government should tax Amazon, Google, Vodafone etc properly and give tax breaks to independent retailers to get the high street buzzing again and the two can live in harmony and stop filling the high street with pound shops and gold buyers
Maybe the government should tax Amazon, Google, Vodafone etc properly
Astonishing that no Govt seems to have thought of that. Wouldn't be anything to do with Party funding would it?
please done tell me to shut up when im voicing an opinion i have the same rights are you to voice them.
Looked like you asked a question. It was the question mark at the end of the sentence you typed that caused confusion.
In which case....
Oh don't be daft, higher tax rates are about ability to pay and social responsibility. The rich do quite well out of poor people. They buy stuff, and do other stuff for cheap.
If I stopped shopping at Amazon my postie would be out of a job.
Astonishing that no Govt seems to have thought of that. Wouldn't be anything to do with Party funding would it?
More than likely. Someone last week (I think it was Stefan Denis would you believe?) said that they could understand why any government spends so much time arguing between themselves and seems to thrive on confrontation when they should all work together for a better country for their people - This is the kind of thing that we have to put up with because of these asshole elected officials that were brought up to believe more in money for themselves and their kind rather than doing the work to better their country.......you know, what they're meant to do
I'd rather work in an Amazon warehouse than down a mine.
It's not just about the tax, though it may have been the tax that first attracted the FT's attention.
It's about terms and conditions of employees, minimum wage slaves I'd call them. In warehouses that the company calls 'fulfillment centres'. That to me is justification for assault with a pair of bombers by itself. I'll avoid them from now on.
Don't companies have a legal obligation to maximise profit for shareholders?
Nope, maximising shareholder value. No, it's not the same thing.
Appropriately there is a programme on radio 4 about corporate tax evasion right now. Should be worth a listen
I was just thinking that carloz! Yes, there are some odd "management" practices at Amazon by all accounts, but compared to being down a pit or working on any assembly line? Perhaps there is a nostalgia for past, grim jobs where the unpleasantness gets lost in the time. A bit like school, you tend to remember the good stuff and black out the rest.
I try/tried to buy from local bookshops first before amazon, but service was typically lousy. Sorry sir, we don't have it in stock but can get it in a week. Hmmm, with amazon it will be there in 24 hours and with kindle, minutes. I recently bought a load of books in Waterstones. Asked the assistant (sic) if they had a book. She ended up looking it up on Amazon!!!
Something clearly needs to be done about tax harmonisation to deal wit the way companies like amazon avoided tax. But never forget, companies don't pay tax. It's money that comes from customers/employees and/or shareholders. And evidence suggests that lots of people are happy to swap amazons low rate of tax for low price books as uncomfortable as that might seem.
I'd happily pay more tax if it was used to reduce inequality. Sadly, post Thatcher, tax cuts are just used to subsidise the top 1%.
Amazon aren't doing anything that lots of other businesses [i]operating[/i] in the UK do too, to a greater or lesser extent. They pay everything they are legally obliged to. The extra revenue that they are directing out of the country is paying a level of tax in some part of the world, either because it's a lower corporation tax charge, or perhaps they genuinely do need the funds to run other parts of the company elsewhere in the world. It's possible (though probably it's the lower tax level in in this case). Whether it's moral or not is subjective - it's global business and it's just the way it is. If corporation tax were less in the UK, they'd be less likely to funnel profit away as 'management fees', etc.
But flip it on it's head and think of all the National Insurance contributions, business rates, etc, they ARE paying in the UK - it's not unfeasible that if the UK gov got really pushy about tax, that they scale back warehousing operations in the UK and ship out of France or similar. Then there wouldn't even be the local revenue going into the government coffers.
Starbucks might find it hard to do that though!
I have Amazon Prime, a bit less than a quid a week.
Everything (assuming its eligible, which is most stuff from Amazon, and a fair bit from other sellers) arrives next day. 4 misses in three years, each of which got me a free extra month of Prime.
I buy all sorts of shit from Amazon- pencils, inks, shoes, bulbs, toys, books, tools.
76 orders in the last 6 months, excluding kindle books. It doesn't get better than this for me, service wise.
Oh, and the job thing- these are the practices of any big despatch warehouse.
I spent a couple of months about twenty years ago working in an (HMV, I think) warehouse in the leadup to Christmas. Bussed in, bussed out 12 hour shifts in a gigantic tin shed with no heating, terrible pay and working conditions. No Brits working there I noticed.
Rather be at Amazon I think.
If it keeps the prices low I'll keep buying, I don't care if the company pays tax or not to be honest
footflaps - MemberI'd happily pay more tax if it was used to reduce inequality
Reduce inequality by simply giving me a bike!
I know where you live, just tell me when to pop over. 😀
I was just thinking that carloz! Yes, there are some odd "management" practices at Amazon by all accounts, but compared to being down a pit or working on any assembly line?
There are plenty of assembly line jobs in manufacturing (automotive, aerospace to think if a couple out if many) that are far more appealing than working in an Amazon warehouse. They're not all as grim as you might like to think from whatever textbook you've peered over the top of this evening.
So DD, you haven't been inspired by Bayern tonight? Still playing the Norman Hunter role. Impressive persistence, if rather sad.
What the bejeesus are you on about thm? I do wonder sometimes... Are you alright?
😉
Forget all of the above, the real reason to avoid Amazon is because you can't swap price tags 😉
Well I think its a pretty sad face of Britain today,large Multi national company employing people on minimum wage with no job security treating them like crap and bullying suppliers and changing the countrys high st for the worse.
The Government old and new crow on about new jobs and investment but Amazon take out a lot more than they put into this countrys economy,yeah wow you get things cheaper and on your doormat 24/48 hrs later but people need to wake up on smell the coffee(preferbly not starbucks!).I like my High St and lucky for me its full of independant shops old and new but for how long is any ones guess 🙁
Dont need to just help myself to what ever comes in the mail 😉
postierich - Member
I like my High St and lucky for me its full of independant shops old and new but for how long is any ones guess
Avoid all supermarkets etc too then.
Thing with Amazon is they are not even interested in profits just now - just market share. Once they are big enough to control everything they will hump everyone by putting prices up.
It's a common business trait^^^^^^amazon, tesco, Microsoft etc
It's a common business trait^^^^^^amazon, tesco, Microsoft etc
Oops double post
To be fair, if I walk down the high street I see lots of chain stores that have put independent stores out of business.
Next, JJB, Sports Direct, Costa, Starbucks, W H Smiths, HMV(just), McColls, Carphone Warehouse, Greggs, Waterstones, Accessorize, Apple Store, Argos, Bhs, Boots, Debenhams, the list goes on and on...
Actually, they all pay rubbish wages do they not?
[quote=piemonster ]To be fair, if I walk down the high street I see lots of chain stores that have put independent stores out of business.
Next, JJB, Sports Direct, Costa, Starbucks, W H Smiths, HMV(just), McColls, Carphone Warehouse, Greggs, Waterstones, Accessorize, Apple Store, Argos, Bhs, Boots, Debenhams, the list goes on and on...
Actually, they all pay rubbish wages do they not?
And probably all pay accountants to minimise their tax.
Great, so these lovely companies avoid their tax. The government still needs money to pay for stuff, including tax credits to subsidise those companies as they pay low wages.
So they increase tax on everyone else to make up for it. You get a slightly cheaper book but higher taxes.
I think the US has a law which demands taxes from companies based upon the trade in the US. We should do something similar.
Amazon made a global net loss last year so you wouldn't expect much of a tax bill.
[quote=AdamW ]
I think the US has a law which demands taxes from companies based upon the trade in the US. We should do something similar.
I think (some) Corporation Tax is based on turnover rather than profit. I can see how that might work but also why it would introduce other problems.
Not all companies chose to use dubious tax avoidance schemes.
Tax paid on UK profits:
Lush 42%
John Lewis 35%
Marks and Spencer 27%
Next 26%
Debenhams 22%
Apple, Amazon, Google, eBay and Facebook paid [b]less than 1%[/b]
"Lush co-founder and managing director Mark Constantine accuses Amazon of operating a legal but "basically corrupt business model" and reveals how top business people, like himself, are repeatedly touted complex schemes to skirt taxes, such as running profits through Ireland or Luxembourg. "I could spend all day in meetings with accountants and tax experts who show you how you can pay less. In one year, one of our competitors paid just 2%. But it just doesn't feel right."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/dec/07/shop-ensure-your-cash-isnt-tax-haven
the irony of the OP !! 😀If I stopped shopping at Amazon my postie would be out of a job.
TBF there is nothing wrong with a business wanting to be efficient, a pension sounds like more security than alot of people get in jobs.
Nothing wrong with expecting your employees to work during their shift either! Should also counterbalance a huge Greggs nearby .. win win for the community 😉
if we are on boycotts I hope any bike shop ending in .de is on the list as they pay no tax in the UK and don't employ anyone in the UK despite putting their virtual shop fronts into peoples homes....
I think (some) Corporation Tax is based on turnover rather than profit. I can see how that might work but also why it would introduce other problems.
They have AMT which is based on income/profit with less deductions not turnover. A turnover tax would be moronic.
Surely the jobs they have created is better than nothing and because they measure productivity so thoroughly it becomes stressful is only what every business aspires to (and be sustainable in this economic black hole we are in)
As for the workers ,times are a changing and we need to move with it - otherwise the immigrants will gladly take the jobs and then in thirty years their children will be your doctors/lawyers and suchlike err haven't we been here before ??
Don't forget those who have children will get family tax credit /help with housing benefit etc etc etc so the wages will be crap but the add ons/benefits make a decent take home pay, much better than I struggled with in the early 90s with NO help and two kids.
A bit OT but I was talking to a girl in my shop the other day and she was telling me how she now gets about £1400 per month for having a part time job and benefits for two kids ,not bad eh for 16 hours single mum BTW but I bet some of you who earn around 20-25k a year are spitting out your coffee at that because you get bugger all help and bring home about the same for 40+ hours a week.
She was as happy as a pig in sh*t and not a care in the world- no ****in wonder!!
joeydeacon - Member
Not defending Amazon, but their website also helps smaller businesses by enabling them to trade on there. No idea how badly they sting them for fees etc though.POSTED 14 HOURS AGO #
A colleague of mine runs the website for his wife's online business. Nice little niche business selling rainwear, wellies etc for kids. Business was doing ok so they decided to go with amazon market place and business grew, then suddenly overnight business from amazon dried up. You guessed it, amazon started selling the same items direct, for less.
And that's why amazon should be avoided.
I'd rather work in an Amazon warehouse than down a mine.
Effectively it is like a mine - they're taking everybody's resources, applying a markup and pumping it into our homes on waggons. I expect about the same number of people work in that warehouse as you would have at a similar sized mine, about 6.
I reckon it's more enviromentally sound to burn my second hand books than try and sell them through Amazon. Ideologically I'm not so sure.
Hmmm, forgot my Dads birthday is tomorrow.
500 miles from here so can't drop something off tomorrow.
Ummmmmmm
A turnover tax would be moronic.
VAT? about as close as you can get, and it's a pretty meaty percentage on most items.
Was just about to order something from amazon, which is listed as €259. Everywhere else online seems to have it at €299 plus shipping. Which of those shall I use? 😉 Gave up trying to find a high street store that sells it.
Amazon order going in tonight.
A bit OT but I was talking to a girl in my shop the other day and she was telling me how she now gets about £1400 per month for having a part time job and benefits for two kids ,not bad eh for 16 hours single mum BTW but I bet some of you who earn around 20-25k a year are spitting out your coffee at that because you get bugger all help and bring home about the same for 40+ hours a week.
She was as happy as a pig in sh*t and not a care in the world- no **** wonder!!
You have to ask who the idiot is?.......by the sounds of it, me
[i]Hmmm, forgot my Dads birthday is tomorrow.[/i]
Hmmm, if I were your dad, and I'm probabably far too old, I'd rather you turned up with some beer when you were able.
[quote=mefty ]
They have AMT which is based on income/profit with less deductions not turnover. A turnover tax would be moronic.
Ta. I knew it was something like that!
I got as far as [i]"...a space the size of nine football pitches..."[/i] in the second paragraph before my policy of not reading dumbed down news stories kicked in.
Apart from stuff from the pet shop, butchers, Coop, grocers, pharmacy or Tesco's or B&Q, I genuinely can't think of the last time I went out to a shop to buy something.
My local high street is aimed at tourists (apart from the shops noted above)
The next nearest high street is a thourougly depressing place to be with poorly stocked shops, sullen staff and locals desperate to be on Jeremy Kyle. I can only go there at the weekend and tbh I have better things to do.
I can order online (inc from Amazon), save money, get the items quicker and not deal with people. Perfect!
I have no loyalty to a high street, I just regard the market as changing to modern demand.
Hmmm, if I were your dad, and I'm probabably far too old, I'd rather you turned up with some beer when you were able.
Did you not read that he lives 500 miles away......
I'm an accountant and in my last role I worked with a lot of small retailers and was involved in a lot of tax investigations. If you think that the big boys are the only tax avoiders you'd be very, very wrong. If you pay cash to a small retailer there's a better than 25% chance that it goes straight into the retailers pocket - avoiding 20% VAT and at least 20% tax. There are many reasons to use the High Street and local traders but the tax evasion position isn't one of them, IMO.
I think Amazon is great.
If your unhappy about the minimum wage you need to think of the cause. We all want stuff for less, thats what drives prices down.
Your only option if you really want to do something is to tip the staff. But then of course you would have to make sure they paid tax on that tip.
Apart from stuff from the pet shop, butchers, Coop, grocers, pharmacy or Tesco's or B&Q, I genuinely can't think of the last time I went out to a shop to buy something.
Same here. Except I don't use the pet shop, butchers, Coop, grocers, pharmacy or Tesco's or B&Q. The local builders merchant is as close as I get and I use their website to make the order and they deliver by lorry (no online payment unfortunately).
I spent 4 years walking around an amazon warehouse.i wasn't lost tho I was working 🙂
Hmmm, if I were your dad, and I'm probabably far too old, I'd rather you turned up with some beer when you were able.
He's due up here next month, I'll get some beer in then.
He'll need it, silly sods booked his caravan into a site in Monifieth.
Doesn't put a present into his hands by tomorrow morning tho!
I wonder by how much the employees lifespan is increased as they are 'forced' to exercise?
Probably an inverse situation from the old mines, where peoples lifespans were reduced.
Job security? who has that these days?
[i]Did you not read that he lives 500 miles away...... [/i]
Yes, I read that bit, and it's quite close to home for reasons I won't go into. Which is why I replied, from the heart perhaps.
Pembo - Member
A colleague of mine runs the website for his wife's online business. Nice little niche business selling rainwear, wellies etc for kids. Business was doing ok so they decided to go with amazon market place and business grew, then suddenly overnight business from amazon dried up. You guessed it, amazon started selling the same items direct, for less.And that's why amazon should be avoided.
So nice little niche business tries to swim with the big boys and gets eaten, boo hoo, that's business 🙄
I'd rather work in an Amazon warehouse than down a mine.
What I thought. ^^
Ambivalent about the bloke who got sacked 'cos he took a day off in his first week because of blisters. Pretty sure I'd have spotted what was happening on the first day after walking 7 miles in safety boots and gone out and bought some thick walking socks - or even my own boots - instead of waiting until my feet turned into tatty and bloody shreds of flesh.
Or done that anyway knowing that the weekend was coming up. Or asked someone else who worked there if they had any tips.
If I needed a job for a year to pay the bills, I'd work there in a shot. It's not exactly fulfilling, but there are *much* harder jobs and to be honest, you just zone out, walk fast, and do it as well as you can.
Managed to avoid an amazon purchase, although he may have to wait 8-12 weeks. Which is not so good.
I'll treat the silly old git to a bottle of Whisky when he gets up here too.
fify 😉So nice little niche business tries to swim with the big boys and gets eaten, boo hoo, that's [s]business[/s] under-regulated free markets heading towards another monopoly
How much [i]more[/i] do you think amazon will charge for those nice little wellies once
-they have used their size to sell them at a tiny profit or indeed a loss,
-and in doing so forced those other businesses selling nice little wellies out of the market,
-bullied the manufacturer/wholesaler into doing them special rates because there is no one else to sell to,
-and then become the only place you can buy them?
I'd rather work in an Amazon warehouse than down a mine.
Hell yeah.
The thing is that these days people don't want to WORK for a living. They aspire to a 35hr week sat in front of a computer paying £50k plus expenses.
And that's how the article reads to me. A physically demanding job with opportunities for those that work their arses off. Nothing wrong with that IMO.
Nice one pie.
What actually happens when technological progress means 1 person does the job of 10? Are we all better or worse off or what?? Does it just result in greater wealth inequality? or less?
There's nothing unusual about the way Amazon's warehouses work. I've been working in distribution for nearly 15 years and other than the size of their operations and the pressure of so many orders, there's little different to our warehouses.
Using temps for busy periods and to recruit is standard practice all over.
I'm surprised they get away with pressuring the workers to keep up to speed so much in this country though.
I've seen it in the US, but not here, especially if some of the workforce belong to a union.
I use Amazon all the time. Almost all books, DVDs and CDs I buy (and I buy a lot of Cds) are either from them or via their marketplace.
At the end of the day, they are stupidly easy to use and satisfy their customers, that's why they have so many.