[Closed] Do you believe on god?

if people believe in god and it makes them a better person and happy who am i to argue.

monkey_boy?

All believers in a god are essentially adopting a view of the universe that is based on faith and not proof or at least the proof of what is known and the ongoing quest to know the unknown..
However moderate your belief may be you are still in that camp like it or not. People in the camp but nearer the front, as it were, will be involved in things you may well disapprove of however your membership still sanctions those actions no matter how distantly. If no one believed, if belief was ridiculed as I feel it should be, then all their power is lost and they become loonies on the fringe instead of the heads of state or the main arbiters of morality in a society.

On god and certainly religion I feel you have to make a call, either you're in or out. If you're in you have to accept some responsibility for the actions of others who also believe. It's not enough to say "I don't believe what the fundamental loonies do" because in the most important way you do.

[IMG] [/IMG]

All believers in a god are essentially adopting a view of the universe that is based on faith and not proof or at least the proof of what is known and the ongoing quest to know the unknown..
However moderate your belief may be you are still in that camp like it or not. People in the camp but nearer the front, as it were, will be involved in things you may well disapprove of however your membership still sanctions those actions no matter how distantly. If no one believed, if belief was ridiculed as I feel it should be, then all their power is lost and they become loonies on the fringe instead of the heads of state or the main arbiters of morality in a society.

On god and certainly religion I feel you have to make a call, either you're in or out. If you're in you have to accept some responsibility for the actions of others who also believe. It's not enough to say "I don't believe what the fundamental loonies do" because in the most important way you do.

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Neither.

Stoic Hedonism - my only belief

So, awkward question time for theists; how do you deal with religious fundamentalism, the people who actually follow the teachings and laws of a religion to the letter?

Are they wrong?
Are they misguided?
Are they just a bit keen?
Are they the keepers of the one true way?
How does their interpretation of the religion measure up?
Are their beliefs as worthy of consideration as yours?

In your own time...

The concept of God backs up my belief that humans are an evolutionary dead end.

[i]All believers in a god are essentially adopting a view of the universe that is based on faith and not proof or at least the proof of what is known and the ongoing quest to know the unknown..[/i]

I don't think that is entirely true. From the probabilistic point of view it's entirely possible to construct an argument that there is a greater chance of there being a creator than there isn't.
The problems with this are such arguments are based on conjecture, and the nature of the conjecture means no further rational basis can be built upon it. I.e. the conjecture in itself doesn't give us a basis to produce further testable conjecture. The initial conjecture is entirely rational. The belief structures then constructed around them rarely are. But it is important to realise that they can be two separate entities.

[i] If no one believed, if belief was ridiculed as I feel it should be, then all their power is lost and they become loonies on the fringe instead of the heads of state or the main arbiters of morality in a society.[/i]

So are you asserting that if only the world was ruled by people who didn't have religious belief systems the world would be a better place?
And will you be using Stalin as your gold standard as to what can be achieved using this premise?

when science doesn't have the answers humans turn to god

where where the Dinosaurs in all these religious manuscripts????

That's fine, until the logical extension becomes kill the unbeliever because the man who knows about God said so...

That's not a logical extension. That's you scaremongering. I don't think that most of the despots of history who promoted genocide were particularly driven by religion. Some of them might have used that as an excuse, but generally speaking people go to war with people of other races, not people of other religions. It's not the same thing.

So, awkward question time for theists; how do you deal with religious fundamentalism, the people who actually follow the teachings and laws of a religion to the letter?

There aren't that many of them. Probably only a similar proportion to the proportion of nutters in the non-religious population. How do [b]you[/b] deal with them?

I don't think that most of the despots of history who promoted genocide were particularly driven by religion.

Indeed.

Stalin. Hitler. Pol Pot. None of them, as far as I know, particularly of a religious inclination. All vile, though.

Atilla the Hun probably wasn't doing it for religion either. It was just because he never really felt loved as a child or something.

Are you going to answer the questions with regard to fundamentalists?

The 'nutters' in the non-religious population are subject to the same laws as everyone else, the difference being that they do not claim to be following the word of any god.

Notice that I do not class religious fundamentalists as 'nutters', merely people who believe in a particular religion in a more fundamental interpretational way.

So, the questions?

So are you asserting that if only the world was ruled by people who didn't have religious belief systems the world would be a better place?
And will you be using Stalin as your gold standard as to what can be achieved using this premise

Yes I am asserting that.

In response to the Stalin thing, no, oddly enough I do not hold him up as the gold standard.

I hope that over time religous belief will erode aginst the tide of non believers. You can't extinguish something as well established as religion with brute force, that's even worse than religion.

With the increase in secularism and an increase in people not indoctrinating their children into faith, I hope as time moves on faith will become increasingly less important until it fizzles out. It will take a while but I think it will happen eventually..

 

Stalin. Hitler. Pol Pot

Hmmm 5 pages before Godwin gets a look in. I'm impressed.

Not sure about numbers 1 or 3 but Hitler was most certainly a Theist.

Edit. Oh and that's a massive strawman argument by the way.

I believe in God, but it would take more than a few lines on here to justify it. I would have to tell you my story, how God reached me in depression in my teenage years, I would have to tell you the stark changes that have happened in my close friends lives as they have accepted Jesus as Lord in their lives, freeing them from drug addictions etc. I would have to explain prophesies in the bible that have come to pass, and go into detail about 'shadows' and 'types' in the bible that show a constant theme of the coming savior right from the beginning of Genesis, even through it was written by many different authors covering a huge span of time. If you study the bible you'll find a deeper significance in every item in the Jewish temple, every feast, even in the lives of men who were living in Gods will. But all these things take time to see, and you have to be interested, if you don't want to see God, you won't. the bible says that "if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul" Deuteronomy 4:29

If you're in you have to accept some responsibility for the actions of others who also believe. It's not enough to say "I don't believe what the fundamental loonies do" because in the most important way you do.

You know you can renounce your citizenship, don't you? When do you intend to take up that option?

if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul"

...reached me in depression in my teenage years, I would have to tell you the stark changes that have happened in my close friends lives as they have accepted Jesus as Lord in their lives, freeing them from drug addictions etc

It's nearly always the vulnerable who are the evangelical converts. Interesting in a cod-psychology* kind-off way...

*Can't claim to be a professional.

Suppose I should chip in with my thoughts too:

I always thought we couldn't be the smartest species in the universe, so my logic followed than anyone smarter than us could be seen as a "god" to us (being as we couldn't comprehend them). Yet I was raised as a Christian and always taught that God (big G) was a good chap, all loving and stuff. Seemed a bit untrue even in the bible he's pretty vengeful and angry, his son seems sound, good socialist leanings, nice and forgiving on the whole (okay so the fracas in the temple was a bit off, but if you can't rail against bankers who can you rail against?) but he's a nutter. This also led to my conscience telling me that actually no, a lot of the stuff I'm being taught is wrong, homosexuality isn't a disease, sex before marriage isn't an issues etc...

Anyway, my conclusions. God, god and gods don't have to be supreme beings, just a bit better than humans. They also don't have to be benevolent. So actually, yeah, it's pretty easy to believe such entities exist, what relevance it has to me personally is a whole new thread (which I can't be faffed with and would probably bore everyone silly).

In other words, if you look hard enough you'll find what you want to find.

I found bacon! \o/

The 'nutters' in the non-religious population are subject to the same laws as everyone else, the difference being that they do not claim to be following the word of any god

But you were saying that it is their religion that drives them to do "evil" things.

If there are the same proportion of people in the religious and non-religious populations doing "evil" things, then it seems unlikely that religion is the cause.

With the increase in secularism and an increase in people not indoctrinating their children into faith

Which country are we talking about now then?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749

Topical?

i believe in god. it is the collective consciousness of humans. i also believe in tables and funnily enough feel no desire to worship them either.

It is a good job God chucked a meteor at the earth a while ago, thereby killing off all the dinosaurs and letting humans get a look in 🙄

Nope.

It would be nice thinking there was someone out there, a father figure if you like.

But there isn't.

1st advert for me - class

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Is that right that a forum moderator expresses onions that might alienate potential forum and [b]magazine subscibers[/b]?

Just an idea, like, y'know, how STW purports to be somewhere where the views and onions of all regardless of race, religion and culture should be treated fairly and equally.

No posts which, in the Moderators opinion, are likely to cause offence to either an individual, or group, whatever their gender, sexual inclination or ethnicity.
No posts, including links to other sites that are deemed to be of a sexual or distasteful nature, incite racial or sexist behaviour [b]or are in any way discriminatory and/or offensive towards individuals or minority groups[/b].

STW forum mods in hypocrisy shocker...

🙄

But religious belief or non belief is just an opinion Elf.

We debate opinions on here every day.
Sometimes, some people call others stupid because of their opinions they hold. 🙂

The belief that religious opinion is somehow special and deserving of protection from challenge is to many, me inclded, ridculous and dangerous.

All opinions should be challenged and debated.
Sadly, human nature means that along with challenge & debate comes mockery and ridicule: It's the unpleasant side of the same coin.

Are you studying the way cancer strikes down seemingly innocent young children?
Perhaps you are looking at the high rates of infant and mother mortality due to birth?
Perhaps you are looking at spiders that paralyse their pray then lay egges inside them then the eggs eat their way out the still living pray?
Perhaps you look at the effects of the earthquakes and the tsunamis that follow and see gods love in it.
Perhaps you look at drought and famines and plagues and see god love in them
Nature red in tooth and claw as your reference for an all loving god ...interesting.
PS how do you square evolution and fossils with biblical time lines?

Is this the kind of thing that makes you beleive in god?

I am a scientist, I see that said spider is a highly adapted creature, that there is the 'selfish gene' policy, that infant/mother mortality is due to sexual conflict on our DNA (something I am studying for my dissertation actually- its beneficial for men to have smaller hips for better gait (therefore running for survival etc)and women to have larger hips for childbirth, as the sexual conflict is between the genes for large and small hips there are intermediates; men have wider hips than would be ideal and women smaller.)That death happens to innocent and the guilty and cancer will unfortunately touch us all (directly or indirectly) and is due to inaccuracies of DNA replication.

Droughts are caused by changes in weather conditions due to changes to the earth's orbit, tilt, ENSO events, tsunamis and earthquakes shows the Earth's power on the surface, yet without this power life would have never existed as it was the volcanoes epochs ago that first gave rise to important molecules needed for life.

At no point have I suggested I believe in the Bible and from glancing at the thread it would appear no one else has said they do either. The Bible provided explanation for those that asked the important questions all those years ago when the technology available could not give scientific, factual answers. It also provided a means to suggest ways of living that were 'good' in that they were more harmonious.

Junkyard. Perhaps I look at the fact a drink driver killed my boyfriend and I see 'god's love in it.' Strangely not. I suggest you look at my prior posts instead, and give suggestion to how everything came from nothing.

"if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul"

In other words, if you look hard enough you'll find what you want to find.

In the context of the Bible the meaning is more along the lines of "if you sincerely search for God, He will make sure He is found". The key being sincerely.

James Ch 4 v 8 says "Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you."

or if you're desperate enough you'll construct something from nothing if it makes you feel better?

Why do you strive to pour scorn on the activities of others so much? Why the apparent need to ridicule, belittle, denigrate?

Why not just live and let live?

Elfinsafety - Member

Why do you strive to pour scorn on the activities of others so much? Why the apparent need to ridicule, belittle, denigrate?

Why not just live and let live?

Elf, the 'God' question is surely one of the most fundamental questions we ask ourselves and others. It would be pretty unusual if we didn't compare opinions.

As to the scorn, ridicule etc, it's part of human nature.
Some people are capable of discussing such things without resorting to them, but it's pretty rare isn't it? 🙂

Shock news: elfin confuses opinion (onion?) with fact. Again.

when science doesn't have the answers humans turn to god[quote/]

I see it the other way around - science revealing aspects of God's creation.

Science and God are not mutually exclusive.

 

Back to the original question:

"Do you believe in God"

"Do you believe in a Devil"

------------my two pence worth----------------------

There's also an awlful lot of mis-interpretation of what Christianity is all about in this thread - like rules, and not doing this and that -it's simply not what it's all about - Jesus fulfilled all the requirements of the law(s) that you speak of and so that's not it at all.

Christianity, is simply about getting to know and being in a realtionship (two way communication) with Jesus (and therefore God) and being changed and transformed by that experience manifesting in selflessly loving one another.

One issue I have with the God debate, is that it's always one-sided. No-one ever talks about the Devil and his role in all this. To me, the greatest trick the Devil has pulled off is to convince people that he doesn't exist nor enters the debate about whether God does. Moreover that God is instead responsible for everything bad that occurs in the world. This of course gets complicated with free-will, sovereignty and an all powerful God but the issue is let's have a proper and full debate with all the key players involved.

Ultimately to me, the point for debate focuses or should focus on Jesus. There is sufficient historical evidence from a number of differing texts and sources that Jesus (the man) existed. The question is therefore not did Jesus exist but was he telling the truth? If he was then that leads us to God and an understanding of what God the father is like. If he was lying, then I would be left in little doubt that there wasn't a God. One of the best quotes on this is from C.S Lewis in his book mere christianity;

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him (Jesus): I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Having considered this question over many years, I'm now in!

There is sufficient historical evidence from a number of differing texts and sources that Jesus (the man) existed.

Serious question, could you point us in the right direction?

One issue I have with the God debate, is that it's always one-sided. No-one ever talks about the Devil and his role in all this.

I think that not believing in God USUALLY also indicates non belief in a devil?
Unless anyone would like to correct me?

[i]Yes - (providing you are talking about the one Jesus was talking about)[/i]

If you deny the existence of all the others, doesn't that make you just one god away from being an atheist?

Serious question, could you point us in the right direction?

Common historical writings cited in the 'Did Jesus exist debate' include "Herodotus", Jewish historian "Flavius Josephus" and a Roman historian "Carius Cornelius Tacitus".

A quick and dirty google search will reveal plenty of debate on these historians and their writings but the main text cited is as follows (also from a quick and dirty search for purposes here):

Josephus, in the book Jewish Antiquities" wrote:

"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. . . .And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

Tacitus, in writing about accusations that Nero burned the city of Rome and blamed it on Christians, said the following:

". . .Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishment upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known by the name of Christians. They had their denomination from Christus (Christ, dm.), who in the reign of Tibertius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate. . . .At first they were only apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards a vast multitude discovered by them, all of which were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as for their enmity to mankind. . . ." (Tacitus, Annals, 15, 44).

The main point which is often overlooked is that the new testament is an historical document in itself, compiled by many different scholars which included the gospel writers. The bible tells the story of Jesus the man, it sets-out his teaching and points us to God. As C.S Lewis suggests, it's up to us to decide if he was mad, evil or telling the truth, we can't say "oh he was just a bloke who suggested we should love one another" - that simply doesn't do the the debate justice.

Jesus existing doesn't actually prove anything does it though, other than there was once a nice chap with an infectiously likeable personality and some strange ideas that the rulers of the day found threatening. If a similar character turned up in this day and age he would probably end up sectioned.

EDIT: autocorrect fail

If you deny the existence of all the others, doesn't that make you just one god away from being an atheist?

not sure what your point is?

Nope. But if people find comfort in God, or the concept of a higher being, then I have no problem with that either.

In the context of the Bible the meaning is more along the lines of "if you sincerely search for God, He will make sure He is found". The key being sincerely.

James Ch 4 v 8 says "Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you."

Bit of a shame when it gets forced onto kids in school though isnt it...even at state primary school I had to sing hymns every assembly, lords prayer etc...as a parent to be I find that all a bit worrying bearing in mind I like a lot of people think its a load of b*****ks...

Science and God are not mutually exclusive.

Christianity, is simply about getting to know and being in a realtionship (two way communication) with Jesus (and therefore God) and being changed and transformed by that experience manifesting in selflessly loving one another.

Jesus existing doesn't actually prove anything does it though

I'm not suggesting it does. The question is do you believe what he says?

If a similar character turned up in this day and age he would probably end up sectioned.[/

If all that happened to Jesus was that in todays age he got sectioned i'm sure on some level he'd be chuffed - better than being nailed to a cross - surely!

I think the reality is that in todays age Jesus would fall foul of societies view that "your truth is fine by me as long as it doesn't affect me" rollocks!

Bit of a shame when it gets forced onto kids in school though isnt it...even at state primary school I had to sing hymns every assembly, lords prayer etc...as a parent to be I find that all a bit worrying bearing in mind I like a lot of people think its a load of b*****ks.

I think the reality is that in todays age Jesus would fall foul of societies view that "your truth is fine by me as long as it doesn't affect me" rollocks!

Why is that view 'rollocks'?

Surely better than, oh, nailing someone to a tree for instance?

I think the reality is that in todays age Jesus would fall foul of societies view that "your [b]truth[/b] is fine by me as long as it doesn't affect me" rollocks!

Brilliant.

I see it the other way around - science revealing aspects of God's creation.

Interesting thread. This:

chrisjnr - Member

I believe that there was something more significant work in the creation of the universe than simply a vaguely explained explosion of sorts.

on the first page made me chuckle. Seems a bit like not believing in chocolate cake because its a 'vaguely explained plant of sorts'. When in fact we do know a couple of minor details about how it all happened...

There are quite a few other things in the thread that made me 😯

Shock news: elfin confuses opinion (onion?) with fact. Again.

Explain please. Seeing as how you're so clever. Thanx.

As long as religious education covers all the religions in equal weighting then it possibly has a place in schools, maybe as a basis to explain why the world is in the state it is in - lots of different people believing different myths.

Favouring any particular religion, including singing hymns, has no place in schools imo.

People can succumb to the 'mass delusion/hysteria' of their choice later in life, without pressure from teachers and other adults trying to abuse/brainwash them.

no, for me personally there is no god.I find god botherers a strange and alien lot, but I can't stand fundamental hardcore dawkinseque fools either.

So, awkward question time for theists; how do you deal with religious fundamentalism, the people who actually follow the teachings and laws of a religion to the letter?
Are they wrong?

Are they misguided?

Are they just a bit keen?

Are they the keepers of the one true way?

How does their interpretation of the religion measure up?

Are their beliefs as worthy of consideration as yours?
In your own time...

Re-posted.

What I'm after is a kind of 'why are your beliefs different to theirs?' kind of thing...

Why is that view 'rollocks'?

OK a touch OTT but it can't be true if it's not true for all.

I think the answer is in your question crikey I take all fundaMENTALism as something belonging to dangerous loons, as once said "science made man fly, releigous fundamentalism made him fly into buildings"

I try to live my life by a general "just be excellent to each other" rule 😀

I try to live my life by a general "just be excellent to each other" rule

So you take your ideology for life from a crap film then?

So you take your ideology for life from a crap film then?

Come on - Bill and Ted were ace!

yep, and it means I even like you elf, despite you being a prissy little monster who's spoiling for an argument tonight. Have you had a bad day or something?

Nope. You?

I think that a thread on this subject has lasted 6 pages without being blocked is a minor miracle and probably proves that there is a god.

Unfortunately it provides no evidence for which of the 40,000 or so gods it might be.

Are they wrong?

YES

Are they misguided?

No most religions [ till organised] are basically be excellent to each other

Are they just a bit keen?

NO we would all like to live for ever, see wrongs righted and see all our loved ones in an after life

Are they the keepers of the one true way?

Depends which religion you ask but they all think they are and some are definitely not doing this - there is only 1 true god etc

How does their interpretation of the religion measure up?

Sometimes poorly rejecting jesus and turn the other cheek and being all OT vengeance often giving huge weight to bits [ homosexuality whilst ignoring other bits

Jesus
34"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
35 "For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law';
36 "and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'

How does their interpretation of the religion measure up?

Generally in life I find them to be quite moral if adhering to a code I dont believe in that is a bit bonkers. Most of the really nice trully generous folk I know have faith in their lifes.

Are their beliefs as worthy of consideration as yours?

no but only a fool would not have considered religion at some point. Only a bigger fool will have considered it and found it to be true.

What I'm after is a kind of 'why are your beliefs different to theirs?' kind of thing...

I am rational they are not and my understanding of the world now is greater than it was thousands of years ago. Like us they sought answers to the same questions.
they differ in that they believe I should tolerate their nonsense whilst they can tell me what they like because it is in a book. I am condemned to death, am a sinner, my friends are sinners and all doomed to death and further suffering. Despite their view of non believers and despite the lack of evidence for their belief I should tolerate it or it is disrespectful and I am not tolerant.

"If you deny the existence of all the others, doesn't that make you just one god away from being an atheist?"

not sure what your point is?

It might be that Christians don't have a very well developed sense of humour.

I thought it was funny, but then I'm an athiest.

Explain please. Seeing as how you're so clever. Thanx.

Well bud, Firstly I should say that I enjoy reading your posts and find that you mostly put across a reasoned argument, that I often tend to respectfully disagree with. However, (and it's probably the reason that I end up biting to your posts more than others) I do find that you have an annoying habit of stating what are your opinions (of which you are perfectly entitled to, and I would defend you right to state them) as actual facts when they patently are not.

I could trawl through your previous posts and find loads of examples but that strikes me as a little anal, However I think you have done it at least twice in this thread alone.

regards x

EDIT; PS, I've never said that that I'm clever, however I seem to remember that you are a self proclaimed genius... 😉

TurnerGuy

Favouring any particular religion, including singing hymns, has no place in schools

More silly hysteria.

At the level of understanding of primary school kids, Christianity (or what ever other religion is being taught) is just a vehicle for getting over a few basic lessons in morals + learning a few songs + getting a little bit of a grounding in an important part of our history and culture.

in an important part of our history and culture.

like slavery and the abuse of indigenous people

Religion in schools is shameful and devisive and should be banned immediately.

like slavery and the abuse of indigenous people

And also the use of Science to produce weapons to kill millions of people....

Science didn't kill people, people did.

..to adapt a Welsh rap anthem..

And what about all those Egyptians in the Red sea? or the folk of Sodom and Gomorrah?

like slavery and the abuse of indigenous people

In one sense (the sense that indeed they [b]are[/b] part of our history and culture), yes.

rightplacerighttime - Member

TurnerGuy

Favouring any particular religion, including singing hymns, has no place in schools

More silly hysteria.

At the level of understanding of primary school kids, Christianity (or what ever other religion is being taught) is just a vehicle for getting over a few basic lessons in morals + learning a few songs + getting a little bit of a grounding in an important part of our history and culture.

Religion has no place in any school unless as a comparative religion course. what you describe is divisive and indoctrinating

Science didn't kill people, people did.

Erm, did you actually read what I writed? 😕

And also [b]the use of[/b] Science to produce weapons to kill millions of people

See? HTH....

what you describe is divisive and indoctrinating

Tell that to my daughter, she likes going to Angel Voices, meeting her friends and singing.

She also thinks the vicar is cool.

Not sure how she feels about God though.

BTW - you're hysterical (and I don't mean funny)