[Closed] Do I want to work in Saudi Arabia?

Nope.

No. Just no.

does it set a precedent that you are someone who will...

edit. probably would. if the price was right and no chance of mission creep...

As long as it was definitely only two weeks and the money was good, why not? Beyond two weeks your fitness begins to suffer.

I struggle with the UAE.

An ex-pat colleague who loves the UAE won't do any business in Saudi.

Says quite a lot.

globalti - Member

As long as it was definitely only two weeks and the money was good, why not?

Principals? Morals? If the money was right would you go to work in North Korea? Do a bit of consultancy for ISIS?

Not a chance! But I hear Syria is nice at this time of year Molls

does it set a precedent that you are someone who will

I'm a consultant, so just fulfilling the contract our company would sign so won't be any different. However they will be cool if I say no.

The client is a global company rather than a Saudi one, but I'd still be contributing to their economy.

Definitely siding with no even before I re-opened this thread.

2 weeks I'd definitely go, just to see the place as a one-off. Have you been before, though? Or do you mean the thought of going makes you uncomfortable.

[quote=molgrips ]
I'm a consultant, so just fulfilling the contract our company would sign. So money no object. However they will be cool if I say no.
The client is a global company rather than a Saudi one, but I'd still be contributing to their economy.
Definitely siding with no even before I re-opened this thread.

if you aren't making any extra on it, then **** no.

Not sure. The only good thing about working in Saudi is the money you can make. If it is a normal 2 week trip then you don't get the tax advantage. Is the working away in Saudi rate more than working away in France? If not than definitely no. If yes then a maybe for me.

I have spent a lot of time in the Middle East. The UAE yes, Saudi is a hell hole and I wouldn't go back there for all the money in the world!

Or do you mean the thought of going makes you uncomfortable.

That. The thought of contributing to such a 'dodgy' place.

They'd lock me up (or worse) just for existing. That's someone you know - could be killed - just for existing. Sure you want to go??

Rachel

I would definitely go. It's only 2 weeks for work, you're not moving there!

allthegear

They'd lock me up (or worse) just for existing.

No, they'd concoct a reason to publicly murder you.

Yes, get on with it. It's your job.

Lot's of places we end up going in this Country are shitty, it's not reserved just for Saudi.

Jimjam - maybe the being trans thing? Or possibly my *very* comfortable shoes???

More to the point, if they discover the picture of you in your skin tight Captain America onesie, they'll probably lock you up and kill you to death.

I wouldn't go.

The thought of contributing to such a 'dodgy' place.

Bought anything made in China recently?

Or possibly my *very* comfortable shoes???

This isn't a reason for other cultures to murder you.

Flashy's been all over the world.

Would you?

Nope, wouldn't go near the place for any reason.

Depends on the money and what I would have to do - but Id not take a phone/laptop/books/magazines etc.

I lived there for 5 years a long time ago, from what I hear its more of a risk now.

Went to Damam for a three day work trip a few years ago. Worst place I've ever been. Never going to Saudi Arabia again.

been ... wont be back ...

and i now work in West Africa.....

If you work for a company that already works for/in RSA aren't your morals already compromised?

Ethically you can make your own mind up. I went.

In terms of practicalities it is only two weeks which is nothing really. I was there about this time last year for 10 days. It was all standard and fairly boring work stuff. Didn't see much beyond the hotel and factory as I was massively busy and didn't want to drag out the trip.

Once you are in it is fine, getting in and out is tedious (immigration/security) so I wouldn't come home on the weekend for a 2 week trip. I'd probably suggest spending the weekend in Bahrain as you can get a bus/driver to take you over and it is slightly less painful to cross the border (and they are more liberal)

The visa application takes a while, make sure your company pays to have it done properly through an agent. Don't put your religion down as atheist but otherwise it doesn't matter much. Be prepared for a long wait when you get off the plane and go to imigration. I got through in 20 minutes but the company record stands at 4 hours. Equally manic on the way out if you are daft enough to book a flight on Thursday evening.

Its hot, really hot, try to avoid summer.

Check the FO website, don't break any laws, they don't like that!

If you do decide to go for it, you could always give a portion of that project's earnings to a human rights charity. Not the same as saying no, but a compromise, and arguably better than someone else doing the work and not giving a sh*t. Years back, as a struggling new freelancer, I did something similar.

The visa application takes a while, make sure your company pays to have it done properly through an agent. Don't put your religion down as atheist but otherwise it doesn't matter much. Be prepared for a long wait when you get off the plane and go to imigration. I got through in 20 minutes but the company record stands at 4 hours. Equally manic on the way out if you are daft enough to book a flight on Thursday evening.

this 1 thousand times.

i was met off the plane by a company rep and taken through immigration rushed like. i felt sorry for those joining the queue. They were in for the long haul. probably still in the queue when i left 3 days later.

I used to do audits on some interesting projects where I had to sign the official secrets act, as well as mil I have done oil, tobacco, and lots of middle east/us stuff as a result of [s]ww3[/s] gulf war 2.
Now when I started out I used to struggle with the ethics of it, but most people other than doctors and monks/nuns can have the results of their work picked apart for ethics. Farmers, Lawyers, Bankers, cops, traffic wardens, teachers, executioners, politicians, telecoms engineers, recording artists and feminist writers to name but a few have been destroyed by the moral police in the recent past.
Meanwhile someone else will do it and you will miss out on the dosh/experience.
NSFW sounds

If you work for a company that already works for/in RSA aren't your morals already compromised?

Interesting point. We have clients in most countries. And yes, someone else will go, and their profit will help pay my wages.

Don't put your religion down as atheist

Ok, **** that. Said no about 20 minutes ago and glad I did. Any country that cares what religion I may or may not be can do one.

You could make yourself useful while you were out there and start a revolution. They love that shit out there! You'd be hailed as a hero, and in no way would it lead to a sudden reduction of height with a sharp object.

You might as well. They'll probably killl you anyway, just for your impure and depraved thoughts, you sicko!

The thought of contributing to such a 'dodgy' place.

Bought anything made in China recently?

...driven a car, bought anything made of plastic, hell even buying food.

We all contribute to that dodgy place and plenty more places just like it. For two weeks I'd not have batted an eyelid.

Ok, **** that. Said no about 20 minutes ago and glad I did. Any country that cares what religion I may or may not be can do one.

A an ex-colleague left the company we both worked for at the time to go and work directly for Saudi Aramco (with whom the company did a lot of business, but i was not personally involved). Shortly before he left I asked if he was all packed and he said he was, apart from his books, but that there was no point in taking them.

I asked him why and he simply replied 'because of censorship'.

We take our freedoms for granted sometimes but this makes you think just how much we do take for granted.

To be fair, if the authorities saw that pic of Molly in his [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/christmas-gift-thread ]Captain America onesie[/url], they might not even let him in the country.

😆 @ Perchy

If I had the luxury of choice then I wouldn't go but If i was dependent on my job and my job was dependent on the trip then I most likely would.

Not a chance! But I hear Syria is nice at this time of year Molls

Damascus was a lovely city before it all kicked off, really enjoyed working there.

Have been frequently including times when security situation has been quite dicey. Two weeks will be a stretch ! What does the wife think ? Riyadh I assume. Also its your normal job right so you are not getting paid extra ?

If I had the luxury of choice then I wouldn't go but If i was dependent on my job and my job was dependent on the trip then I most likely would.

this, really. I was there last week working on the new high speed trains - wasn't as bad as I'd feared, although I know a local lad over there who looked after us. Only 5 days but could have easily stayed longer.

Weird to be queueing at the checkout in Carrefour when everyone buggers off for prayer time, locking the rest of us in with nothing to do but wait for them to come back.

Ah I see you said no.

Molgrips there are a dozen Arab countries who won't accept Israelis and you can guess their likely reaction in Saudi if you put down Jewish as religion. I am well aware of a number of Gulf countries who when hiring have openly said no Jews (ie religious based discrimination nithing to do with Israeli citizenship)

bob_summers

Weird to be queueing at the checkout in Carrefour when everyone buggers off for prayer time, locking the rest of us in with nothing to do but wait for them to come back.

I wonder whether slaves/sex slaves get a break during prayer time.

sex slaves

well that escalated etc

if you put down Jewish as religion

Visa form only had check boxes for Muslim or None

Had a panic moment at work when some wag in one of my whatsapp cycling groups sent a bunch of niqab fetish porn to the group...

Molgrips there are a dozen Arab countries who won't accept Israelis and you can guess their likely reaction in Saudi if you put down Jewish as religion.

They'll reject your visa application for this. Not because their anti-Jewish, just anti-Israel. 🙄

I've told my boss that I'm putting Jewish down as my religion if he tries to send me there again.

Shame to miss the opportunity to viisit a place and perhaps learn more about it.

How small is your list of places that you atre prepared to work in - avoid the UK BTW, they are going to kick out lots of EU citizens in the next few months, Immoral bas@@@s

[quote="geetee1972"]...work directly for [b]Saudi Aramco[/b] (with whom the company did a lot of business...

Heh. That's the company I had in mind last time I had a rant about working with the Saudis.

TBH I'd probably do it for 2 weeks just for the interest of seeing the place. Have always enjoyed travelling for work meetings though they are usually in pleasant places 🙂

Wouldn't consider a long-term stay though.

Lot's of places we end up going in this Country are shitty, it's not reserved just for Saudi.

You're not seriously likening the worse parts of this country with Saudi are you?

Maybe you could go with a view to discovering your own perspective? Let's face most of us only know what we read and watch.

I've been to Abu Dhabi and whilst not in the same league, it at least helped me see for real what I don't really like. But at the same time it wasn't all bad.

That said SA would be a step to far for me.

Maybe you could go with a view to discovering your own perspective?

How would I do that? Wander the streets interviewing people? I'm sure that'll go down well 😯

Of course not. I'm just saying you would have had a first hand experience. And be able to have an opinion on something that others can't truly comment on.

However if you are up for some risky journalism I will provide the camera equipment for you to wear. 😉

I don't think my first hand experience would be worth much. If I go to a business hotel and an office, maybe a restaurant for tourists, I'm not going to learn much about human rights abuses am I?

Others, in this case, know far more than I could expect to. We're not talking about the atmos or the quality of the local trails after all.

perchypanther - Member

More to the point, if they discover the picture of you in your skin tight Captain America onesie,

Do you mean this one ..... If I was starting a revolution I would like to be noticed . 🙂
[img] [/img]

I'd still be contributing to their economy

You will undoubtedly have already contributed to their economy, unless you have never consumed any fuel, plastic, drugs, or anything made from hydrocarbons.

I've been headhunted to work for them, but not on a short term basis. Would certainly be keen to go for a few weeks.

I'd be fine with doing a 2 week business trip to Saudi however it's not somewhere I'd want to be based longer term. I've done a fair bit of work in the Middle East though (in the Emirates and Bahrain) and quite like it out there.

You will undoubtedly have already contributed to their economy

Of course, I'm not aiming to occupy moral high ground. It's a personal thing I think.

if they discover the picture of you in your skin tight Captain America onesie

It's not a onesie ffs I have some decency. It's separate tights and a top.

TMH my mate hid under the stairs of his condo whilst terrorists blew up the compound security fence and generally shot the place up. Grank Gardener was shot in the spine. I've been a lot for business including to Jeddah but its a country you go nowhere other than office/hotel and you take a hotel car & driver so you are never haning around street waiting for a taxi.

jambalaya - Member
TMH my mate hid under the stairs of his condo whilst terrorists blew up the compound security fence and generally shot the place up. Grank Gardener was shot in the spine. I've been a lot for business including to Jeddah but its a country you go nowhere other than office/hotel and you take a hotel car & driver so you are never haning around street waiting for a taxi.

I've done week long trips to Jubail (about an hour from Dammam) a couple of times a year for the last 5-10 years.

People can be a mixed bunch, a bit like here. The majority are friendly and very welcoming.

Immigration has been a ballache at times, but it was much quicker in January on the way in and on the way out.

I have never had any problems in Saudi, we go shopping in the local mall and I go out running most afternoons. Having said that, we seem to be the only people who walk more than 20 metres, everyone else drives!

Everyone has missed the key reason to consider not going, they are abysmal drivers, 160kmh three feet off the car in front, 5 cars in three lanes. Every trip to and from the airport there is at least one bad smash, generally three cars plus.

Oh yeah and beef bacon **** that!

Matt

yeah the driving is incredible. Almost everyone on the phone too. Our 'chaperone' said five of his mates were killed on the road while he was at Uni.

I'm pretty immoral when it comes to making money on a personal level, for the arseache factor and having to stay in a horrible horrible place Id want a decent bonus for it, but hell I was getting a £250 a week 'over night allowance' for staying in Sheffield on top of all expenses covered.

On top of that my folks live in Bahrain so I'd have to check logisitics, but it would be possible I could take the causeway and stay with them of an evening.

for me the journey was the biggest arseache. Hotel was good, food was excellent (Lebanese, Indian, etc...), I've worked in far worse places.

I saw a Trek concept store, but couldn't figure out where you would even begin to ride (road or mountain).

Id want a decent bonus for it, but hell I was getting a £250 a week 'over night allowance' for staying in Sheffield on top of all expenses covered.

Saudi Arabia is one thing, but Sheffield... No.

Interesting thread. Can't help but be curious about such an extreme place. Could any of the people who said "never again" share any further info about why not? Also, any good points? Assuming the weather's quite nice.

I wouldn't go as the Saudis don't like The Flinstones but the people in Abu Dhabi do.

🙂

Saudi Champagne - Perrier Water, Apple Juice, Mint, Premium Price.

As I posted before you need an invite to the American Embassey Brunch, freeflow beers and Champagne, the proper stuff.

Jambourie the weather is okay 6 months of the year, the rest is hot to far too hot. Its quite a hostile environment generaliy, everything is "hard to do" including getting into the country. For sure the peope can be welcoming but not a patch on the Arab hospitality in say Oman. Pretty much all the expats I ever met there saw it as a short term money making venture, by short term I mean 2-4 years. From a personal and business perspective the draw was you could sell prodicts to them (on a short 2 day trip) and/or manage money for them which you did outside Saudi just visiting them for client relations reasons. Our sales rep in Bahrain perfected the ability to do day trips via Causway/Danam this avoiding the need for an overnight stay.

Molgrips, why is there a single glove and small tub of Vaseline next to your Cpt America photo? 😯

I've never visited Saudi or any other country within that region. Part of me would like to, just out of curiosity, but I'm a walking faux pas at the best of times. What normally results in semi comical situations over here would probably have a different outcome.

Nope, their human rights record is disgusting.

Assuming the weather's quite nice.

Only a Brit would assume sunshine always means 'nice' weather 🙂

Molgrips, why is there a single glove and small tub of Vaseline next to your Cpt America photo?

You didn't seriously think I'd printed out that picture and framed it, did you?

You didn't seriously thing I'd printed out that picture and framed it, did you?

Yes, yes I did 😆

Money can buy everything including your soul ... 😆

Do you still have to cut out the M&S labels from your ubdies in that part of the world?
Does immigration still censor those pornographic images from travel brochures?

If I go to a business hotel and an office, maybe a restaurant for tourists, I'm not going to learn much about human rights abuses am I?

I don't really know the particulars of the trip. And I would've written it off from the start (personally) but you've made your mind up doesn't sound like you need any sort of debate. Don't go.

Strangely most of my preconceptions about travelling to certain parts of the world have usually been fulfilled when I get there. I.e there turned out to be pretty much in line with the version I have in my head.

I did a business trip to Japan and got lots of time to check it out. Enough to be get a flavour of the country. But I always wanted to go there.

Strangely most of my preconceptions about travelling to certain parts of the world have usually been fulfilled when I get there. I.e there turned out to be pretty much in line with the version I have in my head.

I would question that you only see what you expect to see? I think it is caled confirmation bias.

I'd probably suggest spending the weekend in Bahrain as you can get a bus/driver to take you over and it is slightly less painful to cross the border (and they are more liberal)

And join the rich Saudis hitting the strip bars and putting Bahraini bad driving to shame (which is pretty terrible in itself). 😉

(Folks lived in Bahrain for seven years. The Saudis are generally hated with a passion there)

I would question that you only see what you expect to see? I think it is called confirmation bias.

I'm not so sure. I just believe I've travelled to the countries I wanted to travel to. I can't help or define the experience when I get there.

All I'm suggesting is I went to India - I probably wouldn't like it.

OP if I may say .... declining a business trip on security grounds is one thing, saying you won't go for moral reasons u
Is likely to be viewed less positively. If your employer does business there they have already taken a view on the moral issue.

I used to work overseas solo for months on end staying in crappy hotels and factories. Never bothered me unless I couldn't get reading material as I read books very quickly. Have traipsed round cities and souq's looking for books/books shops for stuff to read, I would never consider going to SA for that reason.

If you want Molls I could pop round and pour all your beer and wind down the drain, then deliver a withering critique of your loose western values, probably deserving of a flogging, administer said flogging, and then invite all your neighbours round to watch me behead one of the local wrong'uns!

What do you reckon?

If you enjoy the experience, then get your flights booked and you're off for your dream 2 weeks in the sun

You're welcome.... 😀

Pour his wind down the drain?