[Closed] Diet and Nutritional Advice ???

You will find the STW hive will fall into 2 camps.

One half will repeat endlessly "simple: eat less exercise more" and the others will argue among themselves over protein glycaemic metabolite guff that nobody understands.

Fortunately one person knows what he's talking about (iDave) but he may not want to fight off all his regular naysayers if he pops his head above the parapet.

There is good advice on the NHS website.

Unless you are an elite athlete you do not need any special diet. A decent balanced diet as per the NHS website is fine.

Diet is one area where there is a supreme amount of guff - rely on people with proper qualifications - dieticians. Anyone can call themselves a nutritionist and many are complete charlatans as in McKeith.

In summary. A normal balanced diet is fine. To lose weight you need to take in less calories than you use. Ignore all the twaddle about special diets and supplements - its designed to part fools from their money.

Sorry to sound like a bast but its so easy to want to know exactly what protein or carb or % to have but none of that makes a crap bit of difference until you've actually got to a state of near perfect fitness for the extra %

If you want to lose weight (like john said 2 groups)
eat less, exercise more, no excuses, treat yourself if you do especially well, dont be hitler but also dont go back to your old ways.... stick to wheat, brown stuff, water

minimise sugar and fat

it cant be any more simple, its just people making excuses not to get out NOW and do a run or a walk or a ride. thats the stuff that will benefit you 1000% not knowing you had 1 special k too many and now you need to walk an extra mile.

epic fails already from TJ and Alex

off to the office, might post optimal advice later if I can be arsed, with no book to sell or fee's to charge

This is one of those areas I'm in agreement with TJ on, but I do think there are some finer details to be worked around (like not cutting cals too far) but the evidence from programmes like "supersize vs superskinny" is sufficient to point out that for weight it doesnt matter what junk you eat, it's about cals - most of the superskinny people on it have eaten junk food, just small quantities of it, lived off chocolate and crisps. They have nutrition deficiencies but are skinny because they don't consume 2K+ cals a day in total. The reasons to avoid fat and sugar are other health grounds of course. At the end of the day a balanced diet deficient in cals is about the only thing that makes me lose weight.

For biased information a lot of the people who make products for this kind of thing have guides. Try searching the big brands like high5, science in sport etc.

There is a book that is quite good with this kind of thing "the time crunched cyclist" offers general advice.

If you want advice specifically for you in person then I suggest you find someone who offers coaching services. British cycling may be a good place to start or the back of some magazines (particularly roadie ones).

Why is it a fail dave?

I prefer to go with the advice of the professionals

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/diet/Pages/Introduction.aspx

minimise sugar and [s]fat[/s]carbohydrates

Corrected that for you.

Thanks for all the responses so far, personally I am of the calories in vs calories out opinion in terms of weight loss but that's not really what I'm after. I use a small food & exercise tracking program(instead of a diary which is the only decent bit of advice I recieved)so I know what I eat but I don't know if that's right for my personal lifestyle, exercise commitments and biking. Goverment food pyramids or NHS advice (whilst the link was appreciated) is for the masses I was looking for tailored advice and I can't seem to find it.

You could buy Matt Fitzgerald's book, i haven't read it but it's got some good reviews:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Racing-Weight-Matt-Fitzgerald/dp/1934030511

sorry to sound like an arse but how far wrong can you really go if your eating healthily in a good quantity, if your staying away from all the processed stuff and sugary drinks and exercising loads your onto a winner surely

Why do you need tailored advice? Are you an elite sportsman?

beware the snake oil salesmen

I prefer to go with the advice of the professionals

ummm, that'd be Dave then 😛

Anyone can call themselves a nutritionist and many are complete charlatans as in McKeith.

Just like anyone can call themselves an expert on just about anything based on Wiki-wisdom and prejudice 🙄

A few years ago, Matt Hart, who is a contributor to singletrack wrote a series of articles on nutrition. You might be able to google for them.

All to do with the relative proportion of calories that should be derived from carbs (mostly) protein (not as much) and fat (not a lot, but more than you might think), and when to consume them (before, during and after rides).

Or say pretty please to iDave.

Nice to see I was spot on in my earlier prediction. And my other prediction a few weeks ago is looking good too.

Roy Hodgson, that was.

Big John - you were spot on.

Its a classic that people think there is some complexities to diet. There simply is not. Its really very simple and much of the guff that is spouted has absolutely no knowledge base behind it. The basic errors people make when discussing nutrition is quite astonishing

A classic example is the much recommended 4:1 carbs to protein recovery drink one. Go and check the basic research behind it.( I have) it comes from limited studies in the malnourished elderly. The effect has been replicated slightly in extreme endurance athletes. it has never been shown to have any relevance to ordinary active folk like us.(that I could find - and I followed all the links from the companies who make it that I could find)

some nutritionists have good knowledge but many do not. Mckeith is a prime example of a charlatan masquerading as a nutritionist who talks serious guff

I know what I eat works perfectly for me but would it be any good for anyone else ?

probably not 'cause I eat a shed load of food for my size and you wouldn't believe a 60kg little bloke could eat so much.

Kev

alexxx - Member
sorry to sound like an arse but how far wrong can you really go if your eating healthily in a good quantity,

Eat sensibly, it's not rocket science. Even when training a lot I've not worried about it, just eaten more carbs (of the right type).

I also know what I am talking about 🙂

It is calories in vs calories out ultimately. But you can make it a lot easier to ride and be happy on fewer calories by knowing some stuff.

The problem isn't limiting calories, the problem is limiting them such that you feel ok, lose weight and can still ride well.

Go and check the basic research behind it.( I have) it comes from limited studies in the malnourished elderly.

Don't start this crap again TJ. The addition of protein to recovery drink is indeed under debate. However the use of carbs to promote quick recovery in time for another ride is absoutely not in dispute. So recovery drink works brilliantly, as I can testify. Necking 500ml of coke also works quite well.

Molgrips - I don't dispute that you need to replace carbs and water after exercise - however that is not what I said.

A recovery drink is no better than water and carbs in any form - a classic example of the guff.

I do not agree, TJ. I have found that Torq is better than SIS, which is better than plan carb powder. Coke is also better than SIS.

If you tell me I am imagining it, I will track you down and F*CKING WELL lamp you one. You would have to be some MASSIVELY arrogant c*ck to sit there at the other end of the country telling me all my observations and experience are wrong based on no personal experience at all.

Wouldn't you? 👿

i knew someone on here knew what they were talking about, but i didnt think it was iDave - is this a new alias for someone else.

Anecdote is not evidence. Heard of placebo effect?

Find some real research that shows this - and have a look at the ingredients on this stuff.

Go on - you might just learn something

Edit - I have no idea about iDaves knowledge on this. I have no memory of his imput into these threads before

Heard of placebo effect?

YOU PATRONISING B*STARD!

and have a look at the ingredients on this stuff.

I know exactly what's in it. Why do you assume I don't?

I've found all sorts of research last time we argued about this, but you chose to ignore it all. Remember?

IIRC you found no relevant valid rigorous peer reviewed evidence at all.

What is in this stuff then if you are so knowledgeable?

It's like déjà vu all over again.

iDave's been iDave for about a year and, yes, he used to be somebody else.

But both of him have written books and coached TdF and Olympic riders. He's the man I'd go to for advice.

Sorry - I can't resist

I'll shut up BigJohn - I just cant resit pointing out the absurdity of Molgrips position. The man who drinks enough sports drinks to add up to the best part of a kilo of refined suger a week who wonders why he doesn't lose weight.

Torq recovery contains 4:1 carbs:protein (agreed its under debate if you need the protein), ribose, HMB and glutamine.

Maybe you didn't see my posts last time or something but I did find articles about the "glycogen window" for carbs to be taken post-exercise.

As we all know necking a load of sugar causes your insulin levels to spike, which promotes the absorbtion of glucose from the blood, storing it as glycogen in muscles. Well, after a good hard ride your muscle glycogen stores are low. So a load of sugar/carbs helps restore muscle glycogen and aids recovery. And it works better the sooner you do it after exercise.

Problem with that?

Hey, how about this one:

That's the FIRST hit on google academic papers search. You didn't look very hard did you TJ?

The man who drinks enough sports drinks to add up to the best part of a kilo of refined suger a week who wonders why he doesn't lose weight

You have problems reading these threads. I had a successful period of losing weight a couple of years back. I was taking the same amount of energy/recovery drink as I do now, I just did more base training.

Seriously - read my posts properly. There are three here you need to look at.

OP [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1408105381/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0713667419&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0PXFY8Q39N0JYKRPEPMF ]THIS[/url] was recommended to me by a sports professional. It's very accessible, not patronising and has lots of sensible, easy to follow advice. It might be a good starting point for you. Good luck.

My 2p anyway.

EDIT : try and ignore the above argument. These things always flare up 🙄

What I get annoyed about is TJ absolutely flat-out refusing to listen or accept ANYTHING I say because he thinks I'm a gullible marketing led fool. I can't stress how much this really f*cking annoys me since I take great pride in my ability to analyse and understand things, as it's something I value.

Molgrips

Torq and Sis recovery are both mixes of whey powder and maltodextrin with a few bits of vitamins. virtually identical - but according to you one is better than the other and coke ( which is just sugar, water caramel and is better than one of them? Thats why I laugh at your conclusions. One whey / maltodextrin mix is better than coke and the other is not?

As for the research - I followed the sparse links from the manufacturers and did not find that one. The actually looks like a resonably well designed study if very small scale - 8 respondents completing the trial. I would prefer to see it in a more well known journal but is makes for interesting reading

As I repeatedly said I have no issues with the carbs after exercise - thats just basic physiology.

Edit - molgrips _ when what you say is such clear nonsense I will say so. The guff about coke being a better recoery drink than a maltodextrin / protein mix but not as gooda as another maltodextrin / whey mix?

Big John - I realy am sorry * tips hat*

iDave does sound like he will know - but how importnat is it to the non elite athelete?

I will shut up now - I promise o matter how much more ill informed guff Molgrips comes out with

virtually identical

Apart from the things that are not the same. Like ribose and HMB.

Thats why I laugh at your conclusions.

I've never had much luck with SIS, but I don't know why. In theory it should work but it doesn't seem to do as well. I do not know why.

And here's the thing. I've actually tried these things and evaluated them - you are just coming at it from a semi-informed theoretical point of view. Surely my experience has to count for something?

I suspect you ride quite differently to me; you're probably physiologically quite different and you're much older too. And you don't train for performance either. So your riding experiences are surely quite different.

Please pay me some respect.

This is what winds me up the most about you - you are absolutely cock-sure that you know all about this subject, and if anyone comes up with something that doesn't fit with your ideas then you brand them an idiot. Rather than listening to their arguments and seeing if they make sense.

You do this on just about every thread you wade into, not just these diet ones.

EDIT:

I promise o matter how much more ill informed guff Molgrips comes out with

WTF?! I post scientific papers all bloody day (even ones you accept are interesting) and you call me ill-informed? WTF? How the flying F*CK can I become better informed then?

Christ on a stick.

I am quite prepared to learn stuff and change my mind in the face of good evidence. However anecdote is not evidence.

I do accept thats an interesting bit of research you quote and I don't dismiss it out of hand.

Well thankyou.

Also, please understand that I am not a fool and I have valid experience.

Please?

Seeing as you asked nicely. 🙂

sorry I was a bit bored and provocative but I do find some of what you say ludicrous. You do seem rather keen to believe in the magic fairy dust in the supplements

No no no.. I don't believe in the marketing nonsense at all.

A long time ago I discovered that taking carbs whilst riding DRAMATICALLY improved my riding. I was young then, early 20s, and I was very much a sprint athlete. I used to ride hard all the time and my base fitness was terrible meaning I was consuming and using large amounts of carbs. So when those carbs ran out I was a mess. Which is why taking carbs whilst riding had a big effect. I used to buy High5 cos it's what my local shop stocked.

Then I found they made recovery drink which I tried, but I wasn't riding often enough (and was filling my face enough) for it not to make a lot of difference.

Well then I started riding with Torq and training 3-4 times a week and limiting calorie intake. So recovery becomes an issue. When they brought out recovery drink I tried it and found it made a big difference in my ability to ride hard one day then recover for the next day's ride. The post-ride muscle ache I was so familiar with was almost completely gone.

Subsequently I found myself without recovery drink, either having run out or forgotten to bring it and it really sticks a day or two onto the recovery from a big ride. So I either bought something from an lbs (which is usually SIS) or I grab a can of pop.

I have also taken ribose as a supplement on its own - not sure about that one. I've taken HMB for muscle-growth which didn't have a noticeable effect either (and tastes foul). The other supplement on the list of 7 recommended by someone (perhaps Armstrong's dietician) was L-Carnitine. I took this for a while and it had an effect, but not altogether desirable. I found myself fine for endurance riding but somewhat less able to put the hammers down the way I like. This is not what the literature says is meant to happen, but that was what I found.

So you see, I am not being marketing led. I hear (or am told) about something, and if it seems interesting and the info is reputable enough I give it a try, and see how it affects my riding and training.

Now I appreciate this is not a full double-blind test, but I've got no vested interest in WANTING any of this to work, so I am somewhat critical to begin with. There may well be other factors involved which is why I continually work on all aspects of my lifestyle - food intake, sleep, types of riding (for psychological and physical reasons), different sports, different working practices and so on - to see what helps me feel the best, get the most quality riding done and ultimately race the best.

A good site to look at is livestrong.com, where you can set a weight loss goal, and see what it is you are eating. it also suggests alternatives to stuff you have eaten which are better for you. Just gives you a better idea of what your consuming. And theres lots of tips and advice on there also

I'm not even going to read the thread but scanning it was bad enough.

from the perspective of a normal human being, who is active but not racing at an elite level, the following works.

cut OUT white carb food - bread, potatoes, rice, pasta. as in [b]don't eat them[/b]
cut OUT fruit
cut OUT dairy
don't drink calories
drink red wine, coffee and water
eat as much veg as you want
as many eggs also
and lean meat
use legumes/nuts/seeds to replace the white starch

one day a week eat whatever the hell you want, as much as you want

I'm not selling anything, you could say I know about the subject, I also work in marketing now, so I see through the 'free advice' from brands.

And I've been in the position where I needed to lose weight and I know what works best.

Diet is more effective than exercise - any exercise for fat loss should be short intense intervals.

I have no interest in discussing any of it. I care about this >< much

That will be all

This is not what the literature says is meant to happen, but that was what I found

That's the bottom line really, try to find what works for you in as systematic a way as possible.
Despite what some may wish to think, biological performance is not always suseptible to being averaged out in a strictly reductionist 'scientific' method.

If 'it' works and doesn't make you feel shite, then use it and feel the benefits, I'd always believe my own body over some raving internut 😆

any exercise for fat loss should be short intense intervals

I read one study where they found that if you had less than 8 hours a week then intervals was best.. but for more, the traditional approach was good.

To the OP - buy a few books 🙂

An intersting take there dave.

May I ask why the cut out fruit? I can see the logic in the rst.

I especially like this one

don't drink calories

Genuinely interested in the logic behind this I promise not to go off on one - honest

don't drink calories

I expect he says that because it's really easy to knock back a load of calories in a drink in addition to the stuff you eat - without really realising it.

I'm sorry but your all wrong....

See here

[img] [/img]

No need to apologise TJ. You lauged at one of my jokes the other week, that makes you a good guy as far as I'm concerned.

So do you think Hodgson's going to get the Liverpool job? To make my other prediction come right as well.

I'm glad somebody else thinks fruit is evil. Always too much faff. Give me vegetables any time.

I like the idea of not drinking calories. A few years ago I started drinking only water during the day (after my morning espresso, that is) and it has 2 benefits. As well as keeping off the pounds it also has meant that on a hot day I find water thirst-quenching and I can drink sufficient quantities of it. Many people who don't regularly drink plain water find it hard to drink enough when they work hard.

I suppose because some fruit has lots of sugars in it.

Rather have veg though.

the drinking calories and fruit relates to sugars and insulin, which causes peaks and troughs and encourages storage of fat

it's essentially a combination of low GI and atkins and it works, is exceptionally healthy and cheap also

personally i lost 3-4lbs a week without exercise but was never hungry

but keep buying into other bollox if it suits you

Some great stuff in here thanks one and all, and lots to go on but I'm guessing seeing as no-one has provided an answer to my question, personal dietician and nutritionalists must be solely in the domain of elite sportsmen / women which sadly I am not. Never mind, anyone up for a discussion on how it's all really down to genetics... oooh err.

Ta for that.

I don't buy into all you say - a bit extreme for my liking but none of that is too far from mainstream thinking.

Its one of my issues with all the "sports drinks / energy drinks / recovery drinks" is the insulin spiking thing.

EDIT
cnud. I'm sure you could get someone to draw you up something. However how much use it would do is a different matter

what is [i]extreme[/i] about what i say TJ?

cnud, why not try what i suggest for three weeks?

No fruit at all? As many eggs as you want?
If you get plenty of veg I don't suppose the lack of fruit really matters and I see the reasoning. Too many eggs ain't great for you from the conventional point of view.

iDave - compared to some dietary advice on here its the model of reason and sense. I didn't say it was wrong - just from my point of view a bit extreme. Restrict fruit not ban it completely and put an upper limit on eggs. Half a dozen a day won't do you much good.

TJ, do you anticipate anyone who is trying to lose weight eating 6 eggs a day?

and remember, one day a week you can eat whatever you want - yes, even 6 eggs and a tree of apples. this prevents a metabolism slow down

Cake? Can I live on cake one day a week? double choc cake with cream?

I now the conventional advice on eggs keeps changing but is it not 2 a week now? Cholesterol and all that

conventional

hardly a route i'd be wishing to follow on any aspect of life....

as i said before, i care so little, do what you want, i've said what i believe to be sound, effective and healthy.

iDave - fair enough and I was really looking for your reasoning which you gave.

rely on people with proper qualifications - dieticians

aren't they all charlatans as well ? One week something will kill you, then next it's the best thing since sliced tofuburgers

with a dietiticain you know they have an accedited qualification and are a member of a professional body.

Anyone can call themselves a nutritionist without any qualification such as McKeith

and are a member of a professional body.

oh you mean like [s]astrologers[/s]* economists ??

* my apologies for dissing the many astrologers of high integrity 🙁

Thanks for being a bit more specific with the food groups iDave, will give it a go as three weeks shouldn't be a problem.

cut OUT white carb food - bread, potatoes, rice, pasta. as in don't eat them
cut OUT fruit
cut OUT dairy
don't drink calories
drink red wine, coffee and water
eat as much veg as you want
as many eggs also
and lean meat
use legumes/nuts/seeds to replace the white starch

bizarre toxic fruit syndrome ? My entire diet is carbs 🙂

good for you simon, well done

iDave - serious question, you say cut out white carb food, so stuff like wholemeal pasta/bread is okay?

And can I have tea/white wine instead of coffee/red wine (both of which give me the trots 🙂 )

cut OUT white carb food - bread, potatoes, rice, pasta. as in don't eat them
cut OUT fruit
cut OUT dairy

Certainly not, that would mean my kitchen would be empty of all food!

The only time I've ever remotely worried about diet is when I was racing properly (ie Expert level and races 2-3 times a week (road and MTB)).

IHN - wholemeal is out also

crazy-legs - like i say, i don't care, do what you want but i know what works and what is healthy and i'm not selling anything

Hmm, couple of things, it's dietitian not dietician. They tend to get stroppy about the American spelling thing- I know, I married one (a Dietitian, not an American). She has also opined that iDaves thoughts are mainly sound, though no doubt, he'll post again in a minute to tell us he doesn't care what anyone thinks. 😉

Listen to iDave...he speaks the truth.
SIMPLES! 8)

IHN.. yes wholemeal is best, this is the point I believe iDave is making... carbs should be as 'complex' slow releasing as possible therefore minimising energy spikes which encourage the craving to snack as the spike drops, and the production of insulin which is produced digesting sugary carbs, which in turn encourages the storage of fat. Cutting out fruit also reduces sugar intake, dairy is also high in lactose(lactase?) another 'simple' sugary carb.

I think that is right, apologies if I've confused anything ! can't comment on tea/white wine.... except use white wine to get the red wine stains out of the carpet... I think the reference coffee is that caffeine can increase metabolism(?) could be BS though, just something I've heard.

Kev

Keva, I'm not making the point that wholemeal is best. When have I suggested that? I just stated wholemeal is out also. This is why this threads boil my piss.

iDave, ok.. apologies for the misunderstanding. Could you recommend which source of carbs are preferable ?

Kev

get your carbs from veg, beans, lentils etc - you don't need the huge quantities that the typical modern diet gives.

thanks.. I hadn't read your reply saying wholemeal is out when I typed mine.

Kev

I just stated wholemeal is out also. This is why this threads boil my piss.

the food of the Devil :o)
I do wonder how the human race ever survived prehistoric times without nutritionalists to stop them eating dangerous yummy stuff!

we certainly survived a few million years without IT nerds

demands of life change, food content changes, but of course you're the expert.

what do you suggest? not that i care remember....

but of course you're the expert.
what do you suggest? not that i care remember....

I suggest eating stuff you like, but not too much of it 🙂 One advantage of IT nerds is they don't try to stop you eating tasty foodstuffs... BTW I make no claims to 'knowledge' in this field

I care about this >< much. That will be all

apparently not 🙂

cut OUT white carb food - bread, potatoes, rice, pasta. as in don't eat them
cut OUT fruit
cut OUT dairy
don't drink calories
drink red wine, coffee and water
eat as much veg as you want
as many eggs also
and lean meat
use legumes/nuts/seeds to replace the white starch

if i followed that i wouldn't be able to do shite. it may be a great diet for all the folk who buy into what you are selling idave, buts its a dangerous thing to be suggesting folk cut out as much as you are suggesting.

Simon,

I doubt very much prehistoric people were concerned with weight loss !

Kev

Steve A... what do you believe iDave is selling ?

I doubt very much prehistoric people were concerned with weight loss !

yes but very interested in running down wilderbeest and stuff requiring athletic ability!