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With so much blame of pollution being aimed at cars and how everone should stop buying diesel and questions about electric cars and how they will work.
Meanwhile the rail industry is buying brand new diesel trains and this is fine. There are no questions about electrical infrastructure and technology as it has existed since the 50s, so why hold back. When aren't all railway way lines being electrified and all new stock electric? Seems a no brainer..
The technology is there and would be much more immediate and form a perfect startpoint for a clean green future before all this chat about electric cars comes in.
Well it's about money though isn't it..
Just leads me to think that it's just more greenwash and that nobody really wants to create a diesel petrol engine free environment for us to live in...
And buses and trucks and tractors and combine harvesters and forklifts and ships?
nope, defo evil on rails too
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But isn't the point you have one diesel engine carrying hundreds of people in a train as opposed to a hundred diesel engines carrying a hundred people in their cars?
And Woodburning Stoves.
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Trucks, buses, ships, wood burning stoves; there isn't a effective workable 'green' replacement for them, whereas trains there has been that replacement since the 1950s and yet in amoungst all this hype for electic transport being the future and how everybody should scrap their Skoda Octavia, it is fine for there to be absolutely no interest in electrifying the rail network and all new trains to be electric.
Meanwhile the rail industry is buying brand new diesel trains and this is fine.
No, it's not. Commitments to full electrification have been rolled back, and this is a bad thing.
But yes, diesel trains are still better than diesel cars.
No, it's not
Well there's hybrid ones.
Is that true, though? You ever looked at the state of the track bed where a diesel engine accelerates out of a station and it's jet black with soot from the engines.
Trains are rarely full either.
Same reason more people can't just take the train as opposed to a car, lack of investment.
Networks are being electrified, EGIP is currently underway in Scotland and will eventually be electrified up to Dunblane. The reality is that a lot of our rail network can't be upgraded just like that because the same victorian infrastructure that restricts loading gauge also restricts height in many cases and so track beds need to be dug out to the required clearances for overhead lines. This is not a small job.
When I grow up I want my teleport to run on diesel.
Molgrips - you missed my sarcasm,
Like you say electricfication is being rolled back so much for the environment and all that.
Also could someone tell me what euro emission standard a class 150 diesel train complies to since that type is currently being run in various parts of the country and was built in the 1980s, so I'm sure it's nice and clean running and that's just one example.
you should commute round here - trains are frequently so full that you physically cannot squeeze more people on, and even during the middle of the day run at > 50% seat occupancy.Trains are rarely full either.
Electrifying train lines isn't trivial. You need to close tracks for weeks or months which causes massive disruption. The outcome may make it justified but it is unpopular in the short term. But it wont take 23yrs so, to achieve it in the same time scale no need to start now...
How much do trains actually contribute to the NOx problem they are seeking to address with phasing out diesel cars? NOx issues seem to be very localised to slow moving heavy traffic (if I believe the local propaganda here), we don't seem many trains doing 5mph down the high st.
really... you can't think of any other way to heat your home? And trams are a viable alternative to buses, and electric buses are available (and with depots etc - charging is reasonably feasible). Not much inner city pollution comes from ships...Trucks, buses, ships, [b]wood burning stoves[/b]; there isn't a effective workable 'green' replacement for them,
In Merseyside , we have diesel buses, diesel electric buses and pure electric buses, we also have buses running on gas, we have electric trains running off 3rfd rail and off 25,000 volt catenary, we also have 2 diesel powered passenger cross river ferries, yet a lot of residents still choose to travel in polluting cars.
And a few days ago the governmnet canceled large scaled eletrification of a lot of national lines and is now planing to put diesel engines under what where to be new pure electric trains, increasing the weight and lowering the top speed also requiring more staff to maintain the things as well as more stores and parts, and much more maintance.
Trucks, buses, ships, wood burning stoves; there isn't a effective workable 'green' replacement for them,
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*ahem*
Networks are being electrified,
Some.
Diesel Trains don't sit stuck in traffic in city centres side by side with throngs of pedestrians breathing their idling fumes. Innit.
But they do sit idling at platforms that are filled with hundreds of commuters. Been on the platforms at Birmingham New Street lately? The fumes are horrendous, they feel worse than any road I've ever been on.
Some.
I never implied otherwise.
Well there's hybrid ones.
All diesel trains are hybrids, so they're green, right?
But they do sit idling at platforms that are filled with hundreds of commuters. Been on the platforms at Birmingham New Street lately? The fumes are horrendous, they feel worse than any road I've ever been on.
Don't often see a diesel train parked up with the engine running outside the local school every morning and evening. Been in lots of stations and the fumes have never bothered me as much as the acrid stench from a row of SUVs 🙂
Only been through Birmingham New Street, never stopped. Isn't it enclosed with little ventilation anyway?
Just leads me to think that it's just more greenwash and that nobody really wants to [s]create[/s] [u]Pay for[/u] a diesel petrol engine free environment for us to live in...
FTFY
I say de-electrify the railways and reintroduce Deltics.
Meanwhile the rail industry is buying brand new diesel trains and this is fine.
Because the government has cancelled large parts of the electrification scheme. But as others have said, diesel pollution from trains is trivial in comparison to cars.
Squirrelking
Not sure how "workable" your truck is where the company (Smiths) isn't currently trading.....
Trucks like that have been attempted for years - my dad designed the electric Leyland Terrier and Roadrunner 30-40 years ago, where funnily they were waiting for the next big thing battery development to arrive in production (sounds familiar). They had a few running round in service on lead acid with reasonable performance but nothing ever went mainstream.
I'm really surprised trolley buses haven't come back to the UK. They exist in other countries, no battery expense, no range issues, lightweight and simple. They need infrastructure but nothing we couldn't manage 60 years ago so hardly impossible and would be a quick fix for city centre NOx.
Diesel locomotives are covered by Euro emissions standards. There won't be any more Class 66 locomotives built, because they don't meet the latest version of the standards.
Yes, there are loads of older locos still running, but they are gradually getting phased out, or getting refurbished with new engines.
Though, yes, there needs to be a lot more electrification. But its a lot of work, and who's going to pay for it.
Or battery powered trains may be an option for some lines. There have been a few trials recently.
Virtually all construction plant.
Been watching Great Western Line electrification work going on as I drive over the line every other day. A lot of work involved it seems.
Have heard it's going to be half arsed though with some bits not electric as they can't afford it, so the trains will be hybrid.
Not sure if they're doing through the Severn tunnel any more.
Anyway, what we need is nuclear power
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Have heard it's going to be half arsed though with some bits not electric as they can't afford it, so the trains will be hybrid.
Yes, the bi-mode trains are much heavier and more expensive than electric-only, and now Hitachi are having to make more of them because the government has scrapped large parts of the electrification scheme.
Not sure if they're doing through the Severn tunnel any more.
They are, they've canned Cardiff to Swansea.
A good chunk of the stock was always going to be bi-mode because they were never electrifying all the way to Penzance.
Edit: crossed with Ransos.
what we need is nuclear power
The Big Bus!
A disaster (in every sense) movie to remember.
Basically sums up this whole thread.its a lot of work, and who's going to pay for it.
GWEP has been substantially cut back, but a lot of work has been done in readiness, so when the decision - which will come unless Brexit completely bankrupts the country - is made to continue the electrification it'll be easier and can be run under the new CP6 regime.
The HLOS was published last week, and dependent upon the SoFA to be published in October - that'll indicate the proposed direction of future investment.
GWEP is going to Cardiff - so the Severn Tunnel works have IIRC been substantially completed.
IMO Electric cars are being rolled out because we need them as a giant private battery bank for the national grids renewable energy (Solar/wind), the environmental / air pollution reasons are secondary.
As the national grid increases its solar and wind farm capacities, there's an increasing need for a battery bank. Obviously solar and wind farms can't produce power on demand at peek times, so a battery bank is needed to such energy from at these times. It's been the main argument against renewable energy sources, however if there were 20million electric vehicles and 50% were smart connected to the national grid this would be a solution.
random internet source...
[url= http://www.beagleybrown.com/planes-trains-or-automobiles-carbon-emissions-compared-for-different-forms-of-transport/ ]fancy fandangly graph doo dah[/url]
... says that taking the train is worse than driving a small diesel car - but only if the car is full.
1 man car journeys, the existing train network is 1/3 the CO2 emissions... per mile.
Of course it's not that simple etc etc blah blah.
But the big contributors are;
private transport (us)
commercial transport (amazon)
and guess who's easiest to hit? us.
trains don't make squat difference, end of the day
oh, and, what monkeyboy said about cars being a big battery, we're not storing wind power using pumped hydroelectric any time soon
however if there were 20million electric vehicles and 50% were smart connected to the national grid this would be a solution.
Not entirely sure you'd be able to sell that to consumers.
*Arrives home on a Friday night and puts car on charge for trip to trail centre Saturday morning*
*Unfortunately, unknown to me its national cook a turkey dinner at 3am day*
*Wake up to find car only half charged because grid decided to use my car to cook Mrs Jones's turkey*
*Drives half charged car to showroom to exchange for a petrol powered version*
diesel pollution from trains is trivial in comparison to cars
Just because something is trivial compared to something else doesn't make it trivial in it's own right. A nuclear bomb is trivial compared to the sun, but that doesn't make it a good thing to have.
Perhaps they should scrap HS2 and spend the money on more worthwhile projects, such as electrifying the remaining lines.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35717927 ]This[/url] is probably worth a read for anyone who feels that diesel trains aren't an issue.
Just because something is trivial compared to something else doesn't make it trivial in it's own right. A nuclear bomb is trivial compared to the sun, but that doesn't make it a good thing to have.
Ludicrous hyperbole alert!
I'd buy an electric car. The way I work suits the range perfectly. The price isn't huge for something small mild the leaf. But I'm not certain I understand how much the battery leasing costs or works.
Me too, electric works for me. I can charge overnight, reliably. I need 40 miles a day. Go me!
However, I have a car purchase budget of about £5, so "transport" is a 10 year old mondeo or whatever banger comes our way - right now I'm inheriting the last family wagon so its going to be a good few cycles of car purchases before I ever go electric.
I'd swing for an electric bike (I know, the horror, but I have to arrive sweat free) if my commute didn't involve several life threatening ratruns and the need to transport kids in a wife-approved fashion.
Not entirely sure you'd be able to sell that to consumers.
Very easily... "here Mr Smith, have £100 a year for sometimes letting us use a few percent of your car's battery for a few hours"
A fully charged Zoe would power our entire house for over a week - the battery is nearly three times the size of the largest Tesla Powerwall domestic battery, after all - so using a whole load of cars to cover peak demand needn't use very much of the battery.
If everything goes electric, power generation needs to be scaled up massively. Nuke power really is the only solution unless every square mile of the country is to be filled with windmills, and we invest massively in battery storage.
Anyway, currently it's really just not practical to charge a car where I have to park it. Though not as bad as for those who park on street. Cables out of everyone's windows across pavements to cars? Not going to work. Okay, charge points installed by the council? Ha, yeah right. They won't provide enough, and then someone parks in front of your house nicking the charge point. Plus how is it billed and can they prevent people nicking your leccy, kids having a laugh and ripping out cables?