A company is worth the present value of all future income.
Not sure buying Bitcoin is an investment - well if betting on horse is an investment then maybe.
My mate has put all his money and pension into bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies starting from around 4 yrs ago, although he has property too. He can retire now, he says he'll never sell up though so not sure what if he'll ever benefit from his wealth.
Cryptocurrencies rely on there being more buyers than sellers who assume value will continue to rise, how long with the rises carry on? Will it stabilize or crash in the end?
It's bound to crash soon, as has been said the current growth is now being fueled largely by investors, at some point the big ones will start cashing in their profit and as soon as a dip starts it's going to be enough to trigger panic selling. The gamble ofc is how much it will continue to rise before that happens
FuzzyWuzzy - Member
It's bound to crash soon, as has been said the current growth is now being fueled largely by investors, at some point the big ones will start cashing in their profit and as soon as a dip starts it's going to be enough to trigger panic selling. The gamble ofc is how much it will continue to rise before that happens
Yes but looking back at the long term history, every time it's crashed a few months later it's back up and over the previous peak.
I will say the prospect of the upcoming fork is making my bum pucker a little though 🙂
Oh dear looks like there has been a bit of a shitstorm on the Ethereum network.
It's not a problem with Ethereum itself AFAIK but one of the wallets which is used for multi-signatory accounts.
Anyway between $50m and $300m worth of Ethereum is currently inaccessible.
For any coders on here, search the news for what the bug was, you won't believe it! 😯 😆
Anyone following the bitcoin vs bitcoin cash power struggle?
Prediction/explanation/discussion of tonights BCH upgrade
byu/Meeseeks-Answers inbtc
Anyone following the bitcoin vs bitcoin cash power struggle?
Yes. Fascinating stuff.
It's certainly an interesting battle. The pump and dump of Bitcoin cash on Sunday morning certainly gave me a sucker punch.
I have a friend who is in financial securities and he recently told a horror story of some Internet spoofing which lost someone a shitload of bitcoin with no comeback. Would not have happened with a proper bank.
Nope. No one ever lost money that was in a bank. 😈Would not have happened with a proper bank.
As an update I've been messing with trading CFDs on bitcoin/Bitcoin cash and I'm currently 450 down. There's a lesson for you!
Got caught on a big pump and dump with bitcoin cash.
The whole thing has been a learning exercise for me - I wanted to understand what it was all about and like that we're on the fringe of new technology and currency. It's a risky setup but so are the rewards.
The fees for bitcoin can be a bit ruthless though.
Bitconnect is doing great for me. Some will still call it a Ponzi but their trading bot seems to do as they say.
It's returned on average 1% a day for me.
Lots of videos giving it a hard time which I understand but I like to dabble and not give my cash to the big banks.
The best too good to be true scheme I've ever played with.
Bitcoin is almost back to its pre-correction numbers.
Those of you who have bought e-currency, can you recommend a website for purchasing? Have had a few friends advising Kraken or Coinbase? I will be using a Trezor hardware wallet if this makes the slightest bit of difference.
Have had a few friends advising Kraken or Coinbase
Coin base is okay but has been all over the shop recently with volatility. Fees are high, though there is a convoluted trick you can use to get low fees with their partner GDAX.
However I would recommend blockchain.info Fees are pretty good even via debit card.
That's my wallet and exchange of choice currently.
None of them are that good when things get busy though, lots of crashing and stuff when the activity around bit coin gets busy.
It's actually not an easy thing to do buying bitcoins, you get fees, restrictions and limits on purchasing. Also to get the best fees you have to wire money and in the case of coinbase it has to be in Euros which is an extra pain.
I would build your portfolio a bit a everyday on blockchain.info despite the 3% or so fees. Though you could wire money for 0.25% fee but takes a few days and nor sure what price you get in the processing.
Thank you Rone. I will have a look at the site you suggested.
Kraken's very temperamental, especially when there's a large amount of activity. Was trying to set some sell orders the other night and gave up after a few hours.
ok so assuming that its impossible for the likes of myself to mine a coin with a computer (despite me mining 1 bitcoin and one litecoin many many years ago)
so i want to buy a share of bitcoin.
How can i buy one?
how can i mine one?
I found this to be interesting and informative.
I can't say I agree with all of his predictions about the future of global economies/war and block chain currencies but it's a very interesting subject and you have to imagine governments and financial institutions must be strategising how to circumvent this pesky new development.
@andybrad
You can buy a fraction of a coin on an exchange. You don't have to buy a whole coin.
Those of you who have bought e-currency, can you recommend a website for purchasing? Have had a few friends advising Kraken or Coinbase? I will be using a Trezor hardware wallet if this makes the slightest bit of difference.
[url=
I've used these chaps in the past, been in the game a long time, seems scam free, basically they give you a sortcode/account number to trandfer money to, you transfer it using their code and they transfer coins.[/url] Probably a bit (lot?) more expensive than the exchanges.
Just checked their price £8199 vs current price £7482, 9.5% more expensive, it didn't seem like such a big deal when BTC was ~$300
has anyone used that plus500?
has anyone used that plus500?
Yes, I've used it for crypto messing.
You won't own BTC with this trading platform. It's CFDs - you are only buying into something that tracks bitcoin and other trading mechanisms.
Be very careful, it's leveraged trading and not designed for long term as you get charged holding over night.
Things move very fast and you can get caught out due to the nature of the way the swings work. You can run a dummy account too.
It's good simple platform. And although I don't have anything to do with stocks and shares - there's most popular stuff on there.
Summary:
PLUS500 = short term day trading/scalping as there is no fee to buy and you don't own the asset. Fee to keep your position open overnight.
COINBASE, BLOCKCHAIN.INFO etc = Designed for longer term trading with high fees and less immediate trading. You actually own the coin. The real deal. Includes free wallet.
Buy some on your debit/credit through coinbase and then transfer to your trading site of choice. There are lots with different fees. Bitfinex and binance are good.
If you have a coinbase account you can log into GDAX with that info. Then learn about market limit buy and sell which are free on GDAX. If you want to buy or sell instantly then you pay a small fee.
Block chain fees are cheaper at 3% for card.
Coinbase (4%) restrictions to buy daily amount are higher for card.
I prefer blockchain. But having both and a hardware wallet is not a bad shout.
Both throw wobblys occasionally when buying.
Sorry if this a daft question, but can you buy online using blockchain and transfer your holdings to an external wallet?
Yes you will have to transfer.
Blockchain is an exchange with a free wallet. Just move from that.
Just tripped over this. Geeky but fascinating read explaining what it is you're buying.
https://blog.chain.com/a-letter-to-jamie-dimon-de89d417cb80
Just when I see Bitfinex mentioned - you'd be well advised to stay well away from them.
There are many who believe that Bitfinex and Tether are a massive fraud, and when/if it was to come tumbling down, I'd expect to lose 100% of anything held on Bitfinex exchange or in Tether.
Some other advice for anyone thinking of dabbling:
1) It's much easier to get in than to get out! Buying BTC (or other major coins) is easy-ish with a GBP debit card, even if the fees sting. It's MUCH harder to get back to GBP. The likes of Coinbase allow you to hold a GBP balance, but can't bank transfer it back to you! Advice: plan both your in and your out. I use Coinfloor, but I see they're about to raise their minimum deposit to £2500 or 0.05BTC/BCH.
2) Keep as little as possible on exchanges. Control your private keys. Exodus and Jaxx wallets are a good option - less faff than hardware with most of the benefits. Plenty others available too.
3) BTC transaction fees can be punitive. Think £2-20 to send any sum at all. Transferring back and forth from exchanges could quickly make it unviable. Other currencies (BCH, ETH, LTC...) have much lower transaction fees.
4) I fully expect the bubble to burst at some point. A Tether collapse (FBI raiding offices maybe?) might trigger it, as could any number of other scenarios. I think it'll go higher first, so I've got a small stake in a few currencies. However, only put in what you can absolutely afford to lose, and take profits along the way 🙂
5) When there is a market shock, stuff breaks. BTC transactions get clogged up, expensive and slow. Exchanges crash. Bugs appear. Do not expect to be able to buy or sell or even move your funds when the market gets a fright.
6) There are a lot of scams about! Be very careful with wallets, exchanges, apps... do your research and work out what's well trusted. Some is rumour, some is well grounded, but there are enough good options you don't need to take a risk.
...I could go on but that's enough for now 🙂
Some interesting stuff there. No.5 very much my experience. Also the apps for blockchain.info are slightly more limited than the browser version.
Blockchain allows you to go back to GBP account no problem.
Fees definitely a pain.
(re: scams, and as I see it mentioned above, there are also rumours about Bitconnect being a Ponzi scheme)
I'm in bitconnect, there's no real evidence for it being a Ponzi. They've been around a year and don't guarantee a return of 1% every day.
There are many imitators that definitely are Ponzis though.
@rone: GBP on Blockchain - if you sell BTC for GBP, where is your GBP held? And can you bank transfer to a UK account? Genuinely interested as I didn't think you could withdraw it!
And Bitconnect - I have no evidence to prove it is a Ponzi, and there's a lot of mud slung on the internet, but there are some high profile folks saying it - [url=
DECRYPTOFIED.COM My approach is to avoid anything remotely suspicious. If you're comfortable with your research and the risk, then more power to you 🙂
I'm using bitstamp for getting fiat in, binance and kucoin for trading / hodling. Different exchanges offer different incentives to hodl with them.
EDIT: For getting fiat in / out check your bank's policy on crypto. Some, eg HSBC, have been known to shut accounts down at the merest hint of crypto activity. Open a Fidor account as a gateway either way.
And Bitconnect - I have no evidence to prove it is a Ponzi, and there's a lot of mud slung on the internet, but there are some high profile folks saying it - link. My approach is to avoid anything remotely suspicious. If you're comfortable with your research and the risk, then more power to you
It's defo a risk.
But I think they're being maligned along with other copycat - clearly Ponzi based sites. Check out some of the 10% return HYIP , they go bang after a few days.
Bitconnect has more going off to demonstrate it's not soley a Ponzi; their own currency, they make money on the exchange etc.
I accept I could be wrong...
Part of my experiment with all of this stuff is to invest money I can afford to lose.
@rone: GBP on Blockchain - if you sell BTC for GBP, where is your GBP held? And can you bank transfer to a UK account? Genuinely interested as I didn't think you could withdraw it!
Your GBP comes back to your bank account. It's a sell.
I can't remember if it's via your debit card or a wire.
Done it three times.
You can't do it on the app though.
Not like coinbase where it's just stuck in a GBP wallet. Though you can then move it to GDAX. Getting money to GDAX via SEPA is a bit of a pain for small amounts. Coinbase didn't setup my SEPA wire either despite following their costly instructions.
So, been reading a bit about this over the last few weeks, and the FOMO has set in. OK I appreciate I'm VERY late to the game, but then I'd hazard a guess that 99% of the population still don't have a clue what it is or have even heard of it anyway. Here's some of my very uneducated/laymans findings on the subject...
-Only invest any money that you can comfortably afford to lose. I cannot stress how important this is! It may be slightly less risky an investment than putting everything on black at the roulette table, but only slightly. It's akin to "getting a tip off on a horse", there is no such thing as a "dead cert" but at the same time if you can comfortably afford to gamble a few quid and you're happy that the odds are in your favour slightly, then have a gamble...
-The process of making money out of cryptocurrency trading is pretty much a legalized Ponzi scheme! This makes it not only incredibly risky, but is also why the banks and the governments are VERY afraid of it... Like all Ponzi schemes, some people will get very rich, but most won't, and many people will lose a lot of money.
-The concept of these cryptocurrencies themselves is a fantastic idea, especially Etherium IMO. Decentralising the way in which currency is "made" and distributed is a fantastic idea in principle, it's like a modern day virtual Robin Hood taking from the rich (the banks) to give to the poor (you and me). The reality is somewhat different though, as obviously decentralising it makes it somewhat inefficient, but not only that, whilst it seems to be secure enough (there's been a few scare stories of lost codes but mostly they seem to have been temporary glitches) in use, it's the inherent appeal to the less scrupulous members of society that really worry me. Bitcoin is rapidly becoming the currency of choice in the Dark Web so I understand, as it is by extortion rackets, and as a way of laundering illegally earnt money it is beyond reproach! I can envisage lots of "overnight Bitcoin millionaires" having laundered all of their ill gotten gains through the smokescreen of Bitcoin very easily.
-Just like any Ponzi or Pyramid scheme, the only ones who make any real money are those that get in on it before the hype picks up. The Bubble hasn't burst, and people are still "making money" (I put that in inverted commas cos actually the on screen investment is increasing in value, but until it has been cashed in it has not actually done anything for the investor) at a good rate, but anyone investing now thinking they're going to retire in a few years on the profits is going to be very disappointed. There are already Bitcoin Millionaires, and I have no doubt there will be Bitcoin Billionaires, but those people largely invested their money years ago when a Bitcoin was worth the square root of naff all. My mate who kept bending my ear, bought a Bitcoin when they were £3500 only 6 or 8 weeks ago, is jumping around like he's won the lottery as it went through £8250 last night. Not only that but he's had it working for him, invested as packages (where he receives on average just under 1% per day ROI) through one of the Bitcoin trading sites. So he now owns just shy of 1.2 Bitcoins with a value of approx £10,500... He's adamant that the growth is going to be exponential still, and that a Bitcoin will hit £100k inside 12 months and he'll be paying off his mortgage with it (he's 32 and got about £150k owing on his mortgage). I'm a lot more realistic and understand the "Boom & Bust" economics a little better than he does, I know it's got a limited time before something happens to burst the bubble and the market will crash (and not just for a period, but for good), but also that whilst the curve is on the up that it is still worth investing a few quid if you can afford to as it's certainly better than having it sat in the bank. As long as you can get it out quickly should things turn sour that is!
-Just like any Ponzi or Pyramid scheme, the ability of people to make money on cryptocurrencies is totally down to their ability to sell the dream to others and get them to invest in it. All the language used is the same as I've heard from the likes of Amway or the Boiler room stocks scam depicted in Wolf of Wall Street. My FOMO is small (I've invested £100 cos I'm interested, I don't expect to get rich, and if I lose £100 so what), but the premise of anyone making money out of trading these cryptocurrencies is solely dependant on other people's FOMO. Create enough hype, get enough people to invest, tell enough stories about how your mate has bought a Lamborghini already and he's only had money invested for 9 months, and the rolling stone WILL gather enough moss... Until it reaches critical mass and then it all collapses!
-The smart way to make money out of cryptocurrencies would be to attempt to trade them as you would commodities, with significant sums invested, then get in and out quick as the market fluctuates. However... Unlike traditional stocks and shares, the whole cryptocurrency market seems to be designed to lock investors in, both by charging fairly signficant (3-4% or so) fees at the point of investment, and also to encourage people to get their investment to work for them by tying it up (with the promise of a 1% return per day) for a lengthy period of time, with no way of getting out should the market turn sour. The whole market is set up to take advantage out of society's inherent greed, and as such, just like the gambler who's perpetually convinced his next hand will be the lucky one, people can't step away from it. Then there seems to be a hell of a lot of confusion on how to actually get your money out of your crypto wallet once you've actually sold your currency! It's easy enough to get the money in FFS, why can't it come out as easily? Quite simply cos it's not in their (those making the actual money) interest to let anybody get out easily...
-Interesting as it all is, and my mate thinks it's going to be revolutionary and will bring down the banks in the long run (couldn't help but laugh when he told me this!), once it gets to the point where these cryptocurrencies piss the actual banks off enough, the powers that be will step in and take over. I love the revolutionary idea of it all, but the fact is that the big banks still hold pretty much all the financial clout the world over (The Global Financial crisis barely killed any of them off FFS!), and resistant to change as they all are, they don't want to miss out ultimately. There will either be a forced commercial buyout of the likes of Bitcoin, or the laws will change to make sure it definitely comes under the Ponzi umbrella, rather than being able to argue (however tenuously) that it doesn't. Once ANY sign of either happens, the values will go into freefall, with people pulling out left right and centre. Anybody who doesn't react quickly enough will lose pretty much everything!
I will clarify that I am no economist, I have no qualifications to qualify me to be any kind of authority so please don't quote me in years to come, I am just an average Joe on the street that has more than a little understanding of how money is "made"... And I'm more than a little old school in that I prefer to actually have something tangible for my investment, or for value to be added to something by doing something to it. But I'm also interested in new technology and it's exciting to see things unfold.
OK I appreciate I'm VERY late to the game
No you're not. As you go on to suggest, given the % of population invested already, it is still very early. 10K bitcoin is still worth investing in, remember you don't have to buy a full coin. Widely expected to keep growing and growing to maybe 500K. Why not?
-The smart way to make money out of cryptocurrencies would be to attempt to trade them as you would commodities, with significant sums invested, then get in and out quick as the market fluctuates.
Not sure I would recommend that to anyone unless well versed in day trading.
Too easy to get caught in a pump and dump. (Happened to me, lost 400 quid.) Also fees make it hard work.
I would say go for the long term on BTC.
Example: Traded bitcoin for a few days and made about 150 quid. If I'd left in the same period it almost doubled it's value. And no fees.
Not sure I would recommend that to anyone unless well versed in day trading
Precisely
Also fees make it hard work.
Which makes you view it as a longer term investment. Yet it’s about as volatile a market as they come. That’s my point... Those with the most to gain are upselling the benefits of investing and downplaying the risks, and where pray tell have we heard that before...? This is going to be a more modern version of the global financial crisis... A select few will make a lot of money, a handful will make a tidy sum, but most people will lose money in the long run and some will lose out big time!
I would say go for the long term on BTC.
Which is what everyone is saying, hence the perpetuating hype, continuining investment, and the continual rise in value of it... THE BUBBLE WILL BURST! It won’t go on forever, my £100 isn’t going to be £1000 in 12 months, £10k another 12 months later and £100k 12 months after that...
THE BUBBLE WILL BURST! It won’t go on forever, my £100 isn’t going to be £1000 in 12 months, £10k another 12 months later and £100k 12 months after that...
Of course it will. But if you can get your money out again before your £100 is worth less than £100, you're quids in, no?
Knowing when to do that, that's the tricky bit.
It's all very fascinating , and each stage of its growth it has exceeded expectations.
I wouldn't be surprised if it goes to 40-60,000 in 2018.
They said 10,000 by xmas and people laughed it off.
It got there by November.
Stuff like this only comes around every 20 years or so. May as well jump on!
A Looney friend of mine told me to get on it in March. I laughed it off.
I wouldn't be surprised if it goes to 40-60,000 in 2018.
Yeah a bit like Amway or any old Ponzi scheme - got to get more people in!
Yeah a bit like Amway or any old Ponzi scheme - got to get more people in
This Ponzi thing is getting tossed about without any consideration for its definition.
For a start Amway can't be a Ponzi because there is a product to generate the money. Amway is an MLM - multi level marketing scheme.
The term Ponzi is based around an investment that only generates its money by the introduction of a new tier of investors at the bottom level.
Bitcoin is not a Ponzi. At worst it's a bubble or a speculative investment. It's price is based on market demand just like any other trading asset.
I don't refer anyone and have not control over how other people invest in it.
It's not a Ponzi.
Watch Wizard of Lies.
But if you can get your money out again before your £100 is worth less than £100, you're quids in, no?Knowing when to do that, that's the tricky bit.
Of course...
But like all of the greatest “get rich quick schemes” there’s ever been, it relies on human greed and the inability to know when the right time is by most, so the few can make a LOT of money.
When BTC crashes, it will crash hard! It won’t be a slow decline, there will be people who’ve invested their nest egg in it that come out with nothing! Imagine going into a business meeting, smug in the knowledge that your £10k investment is now “worth” over £100k already and you only invested in it 12 months ago, yet 1hr later you come out of that meeting and your investment is now worth just £1k and with no prospects of recovering... This could be the reality for many!
Stuff like this only comes around every 20 years or so. May as well jump on!
I quite agree... But I’ll refer to my first point I made in my first post... Only invest what you can afford to lose! This is a high risk investment, it could crash just as quickly (probably much quicker) than it has risen if and when the banks decide they’ve let everyone have enough fun and it’s their turn on the action.
Yeah a bit like Amway or any old Ponzi scheme - got to get more people in!
Precisely... No new investors, no continued share value increase.
This Ponzi thing is getting tossed about without any consideration for its definition.
I think the key words were “a bit like” in Mudsharks statement. BTC isn’t a Ponzi otherwise it would be illegal, but close as Damn it is to swearing it’s about as close as you’ll legally get to a Ponzi on a global scale!
For a start Amway can't be a Ponzi because there is a product to generate the money. Amway is an MLM - multi level marketing scheme.
Anyway is Pyramid Selling... Basically a Ponzi legalised by selling products (that nobody really wants). You don’t make money from Amway by actually selling the tat that they sell, you make money by recruiting new sales people, who then invest into the business with a hope of returning on their investment. It’s so close to a Ponzi it’s untrue, but it’s legal because there is a product involved...
The term Ponzi is based around an investment that only generates its money by the introduction of a new tier of investors at the bottom level.
This is really starting to sound familiar!
Bitcoin is not a Ponzi. At worst it's a bubble or a speculative investment. It's price is based on market demand just like any other trading asset.
Yep, but there’s no tangible product, and the value of the investment relies almost entirely on new investors in the market... Like I said above, it’s as close as Damn it is to swearing!
I don't refer anyone and have not control over how other people invest in it.
You’re the exception not the rule in that case. Maybe you should... You’ll make more money!
It's not a Ponzi.
Alright Bernie Madoff, keep your hair on, we get the point!
We know it isn’t a Ponzi scheme, but it really is effing close in the way it works! The key to that being the selling of the premise that it is only going to go up and up and up in value, and to get in now otherwise you will lose out. Which is actually kinda true. But the small details are left out by everyone in that it is an investment in nothing, pretty much a global scale confidence trick, and that when either the growth begins to halt or the banks decide they’ve had enough of the plebs making money without them, it is going to go into epic freefall! The key is to be like the guy that sold MySpace for a huge sum, when 12 months later it was virtually worthless as we’d all moved on to Facebook...
There's a rich history of not-quite-Ponzi schemes that built stuff but lost all the investor's money. Victorian railways, the great Victorian cemeteries, the London docks and arguably the channel tunnel are examples.
If you're timing's perfect you'll make loads of money but that's more luck than judgement.
Good luck.
Alright Bernie Madoff, keep your hair on, we get the point
I haven't got any hair.
It's not a Ponzi. There isn't one person at the top doling out to folk below.
It's closest in analogy to tech stock pre the boom of 2001.
I don't agree with your description. I think it's a simple case of demand of something that will be revolutionary further down the line.
Time will tell.
Yep, but there’s no tangible product, and the value of the investment relies almost entirely on new investors in the market
The tangible product is the technology it sits on.