[Closed] Creationist religious nutjob on R4 "One to One 9.30am"

mefty - Member

In the the amount many of you have spent and no doubt will spend posting on the subject you could have read a lot of books which is what I intend to do now, albeit it is a detective novel - not Father Brown alas.

Sherlock Holmes?
[i]How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?[/i]

I understand the word just fine, thanks. What I don't understand is the point in swanning in going 'I know more than you, and I'm not telling you, read some books.' Doesn't really advance the discussion, y'know?

Neither have the previous 20 pages, what have I done wrong?

I could tell you how the conversation has advanced (it has, quite a lot) but it'd be immensely time consuming and probably futile. You could read it for yourself and find out though, if you like.

What have you learnt then?

I learnt that there are a lot of large misconceptions about theology, but sadly not what they are.

In the previous 19 pages?

You could read them and find out?

That is a statement, not a question, I learnt nothing but you obviously find these threads enlightening because you spend alot of time on them. Thus I am intrigued to know what you have learnt.

That is a statement, not a question

It's a statement with a question mark at the end, inviting a response rather than ending the conversation. Are you seriously so out of ideas that you're having to resort to picking apart my grammar?

Regardless. In answer to your question, I find these threads interesting and entertaining. They're not [i]always[/i] "enlightening" for me personally, though I have learnt a good deal about other religions and the viewpoints of its followers along the way. Ro5ey, for example, has explained what benefits he believes church membership has brought to his community.

Others have said they've had their opinions changed in previous discussions too, though I don't have details to hand unfortunately. Offhand I remember one guy revised his religion-inspired anti-homosexuality views after a healthy discussion on same-sex marriage somehow devaluing his own. Sorry, I didn't know there was going to be a test or I'd have made notes.

"Learning things" isn't necessarily the raison d'etre of these kinds of debates, I don't think, though it's sometimes a happy by-product. We're not all sitting here seeking The Truth like some sort of possessed Spod Mulder. Indeed, rightly or wrongly I think most of us have already found it.

All that said, I'm still interested to hear from you what you believe we've got wrong.

Cougar - Member
igrf > I may be misinterpreting you, but you seem to have confused "study" with "promote". We learnt about the third reich in History at school, but no-one came along and tried to get us to sign up the East Lancashire Hitler Youth.

I don't see any harm in studying Buddhism, or Islam, at an academic level; ie, R.E. It's quite possible to teach R.E. in a secular manner, just swap "Jesus did this" with "Christians believe that Jesus did this" and we have a winner. The bonus of that is that multi-faith R.E. is a breeze, you can cover all the major religions then. Hell, and if any of the kids fancy buying into it, they can make an informed choice rather than default to the one they've been given by their parents.

It won't take them long to spot creationism for what it is, or the flaws in all religions, but if they have half an enquiring mind, they'll spot there is something going on and with a bit of further digging draw a conclusion by which to guide themselves.

What galls me, in our readiness to debunk Judaeo Christianity, the strong arm methods of other less tolerant or more 'noisy' groups dominate the agenda. Just plain Atheism isn't the answer, and as I ventured further back in irony initially, a healthy dose of Agnosticism coupled to search for the truth can produce some intriguing answers some backed scientifically.

As to wether there is a supreme being, or force, in my mind the jury is still out, that there is a force for good and evil is self evident, that we come back here time and again also seems highly likely and Karma? Karma has always been a cool rule by which to conduct oneself.

Is my view.

Damn, too late, now pointless and unfunny.

Never stopped anyone before (-:

...that there is a force for good and evil is self evident,

Not to me. Peer reviewed double blind tested court admissible evidence?

Have you been watching Star Wars recently?

Others have said they've had their opinions changed in previous discussions too

*Raises hand*

that there is a force for good and evil is self evident

Is it?

...but if they have half an enquiring mind, they'll spot there is something going on...

Half an inquiring mind eh?

Not like those thickos Darwin, or DaVinci, or Freud then?

Not like those thickos Darwin, or DaVinci, or Freud then?

I'm starting to wonder if there's a genetic component to religious belief. I know some very clever religious people and there are some stupid atheists, so there's obviously more to it than thinking it through.

It doesn't seem that religious people believe there's a god because they've thought through all the arguments, or that atheists don't believe in a god because of their thinking about it.

As to wether there is a supreme being, or force, in my mind the jury is still out,

that there is a force for good and evil is self evident

Karma has always been a cool rule by which to conduct oneself.

TuckerUK - Member
...that there is a force for good and evil is self evident,
Not to me. Peer reviewed double blind tested court admissible evidence?

Well let me rephrase it as a force for positive and an opposing negative, it's what makes the world turn rather than blathering on about proving it by having a good bash at Satanic, Voodoo, Black Witchcraft, or other 'negative belief values' of which there is a lot of largely unscientific, but nonetheless interesting anecdotal and some scientific evidence to corroborate.

Did I mention spiritualism yet? 😕

Junkyard - Member
As to wether there is a supreme being, or force, in my mind the jury is still out,

And Unicorns - I mean I have no proof of those but I can make up some outlandish stories riddled with innacuracies if it helps?
that there is a force for good and evil is self evident

Well I missed it so its not self evident - what sort of meter do I need to measure it or do I just take pictures?
Karma has always been a cool rule by which to conduct oneself.

Yes it is, but its no more real than be excellent to each other

Is typical of the sort of closed minded view that is irritating, and coming from one who allegedly is paid to open the minds of the young, I do hope not to R.I.

igrf - Member

that there is a force for good and evil is self evident

It really isn't. Not sure where you'd even start if you wanted to argue that it is, tbh.

...some scientific evidence to corroborate.

Love to see that then, please.

Northwind - Member
igrf - Member
that there is a force for good and evil is self evident

It really isn't. Not sure where you'd even start if you wanted to argue that it is, tbh.

Right so mankind and evil bastards murdering each other wholesale in the name of whatever is not caused by some evil force then?

And Opposing that insert appropriate Mother Theresa style operation is not motivated by a force for good?

Every fibre of you, your body, cells, requires the action of positive and negatively opposed forces.

Call it electricity if you wish.

All actions are generally opposed by a reaction.

If there is good, then generally there is evil, one must assume in equal measure.

Self evident

As I said.

Is typical of the sort of closed minded view that is irritating, and coming from one who allegedly is paid to open the minds of the young,

Makes lesson plan about unicorns

Not all teachers work with the young either but you are good at jumping to erroneous conclusionswithout evidence 🙄

The problem with not having a closed mind is self evidently that you let in any old guff and cant differentiate between fact and fiction.
EDIT:

Right so mankind and evil bastards murdering each other wholesale in the name of whatever is not caused by some evil force then?

I rest my case on what happens when you have an open mind and where you end up

Is typical of the sort of closed minded view that is irritating, and coming from one who allegedly is paid to open the minds of the young, I do hope not to R.I.

Why not dispense with the argumentum ad hominem, it's an old reuse, and just attack the actual meat of the discussion?

[img] [/img]

That is among the least self evident things I've ever seen.

I know some very clever religious people and there are some stupid atheists, so there's obviously more to it than thinking it through.

It's about intelligence AND education. I have never ever met an intelligent AND educated believer. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I have never met one. I have met intelligent AND educated leaders in religions though.

OK, I get it, igrf, you're trolling right? Got me going there for a minute. Good one.

Yin & Yang is Chinese, Taoism, light dark, male female, we in the west subscribe good and evil to the symbol, but the point is both sides make life go round.

Self Evident if one exists then there is the other.

Of course he's trolling, that or genuinely scary.

Self Evident if one exists then there is the other.

I don't think you've fully understood the concepts of science: critical thinking, evidence, facts, etc. There is no such thing (other than in language) of self evidence.

I have never ever met an intelligent AND educated believer.

I have, loads.

But then you're at risk of your own circular logic. If you believe that believing is stupid then you'll automatically put any believers in the stupid category.

Right so mankind and evil bastards murdering each other wholesale in the name of whatever is not caused by some evil force then?

Well let's see. Would it be ok to fight against someone who was attacking you? If they wanted to kill you and would not stop until they did, would it be ok if you killed them in self defence?

If you live next door to a tribe of people who always wanted to kill you, and kept coming over and trying, would it be ok to pre-emptively attack them to stop them attacking you?

What if they had the exact same opinion of you as you did of them and you were actually doing the exact same thing?

Both sides think they are doing a good thing, and protecting themselves. No external evil force required, just self preservation and limited resources.

TuckerUK - Member
OK, I get it, igrf, you're trolling right? Got me going there for a minute. Good one.

No, actually I'm not, this is the longest running debate that i've ever participated within on here without it being closed or screwed by the usual big hitter arguments, i guess that suicide thread got me thinking a bit to be honest, so all I'm trying to suggest is that through agnosticism comes the quest for the answer and there is plenty out there if you look for it, as I did once upon a time in my youth. It is far far easier nowadays with the benefit of the interenet for young people to seek out the teachings of others, so my blatherings here were just to put the view that there most definitely (imho) something more out there and by piecing it together, combined with my particular personal experiences (Spiritualist Grand parents) it is possible to form a cohesive belief by which to live through this bollox nd come out the other end sane (ish) I'm not asking you to believe any of it, I'm just suggesting you look a little further with an open mind.

this is the longest running debate that i've ever participated within on here without it being closed or screwed by the usual big hitter arguments

How many accounts have you had banned whilst others have ruined threads you have taken part in?

I've looked into it very deeply, with an open mind.

I've concluded that there is nothing out there more than the collective emotions of billions of people. And that is an amazing and mostly wonderful thing.

molgrips - Member
No external evil force required, just self preservation and limited resources.

Hmm time to invoke Godwin i guess.

You did know Hitler really was an occultist?

Hitler was bonkers, not a very good example of anything imo.

I know if St least on physics PhD who is a believer.

Thing is with Religion/Higher Power etc is that it seems to be a really important Human Concept. Don't 90% of Earths population have some sort of religious belief? dunno the stats. It's all some delusional mental illness then? Imagine a world without all that fantastic Art and Music and Great Buildings and Literature all inspired or influenced by Religion in one way or another. Our cultural history would be pretty empty. I'm not Religious or even "spiritual" btw. Just saying that it produces good stuff too 🙂

I would argue that there is no such thing as "good" or "evil" beyond the confines of our own heads. We are evolved to generally do more of what we perceive as "good", but some people will of course buck the trend and do more stuff that we perceive as "bad" or evil. In reality there are just events, actions, consequences etc, but the evaluation of those events in a moralistic way is a purely human construct.

Imagine a world without all that fantastic Art and Music and Great Buildings and Literature all inspired or influenced by Religion in one way or another. Our cultural history would be pretty empty.

Nah, they'd have found plenty of other things to draw.

As for 'evil', I don't think it really exists. People are good, misguided, stupid, inconsiderate, selfish or amoral. I don't think any of those things is actually evil.

the evaluation of those events in a moralistic way is a purely human construct

Yep, and as such it's relative.

Nah, they'd have found plenty of other things to draw.

And fight about

Oh, we're getting deep now, the Port or Brandy must be kicking in.

nah Molgrips some of the best buildings and sculpture ever have been built and funded by religion. Some of those great artists and craftsmen would just be messing about with charcoal for pennies otherwise! Michaelangelo would've been sat about doing portraits in the square rather than jazzing up the Sistine chapel with the best Art materials at the time. Back in the day the big jobs were paid for by the church or Royalty. The only reason some of the good stuff still exists is cos it was tucked away in Gods House for Centuries 😉

some of the best buildings and sculpture ever have been built and funded by religion.

That's true. But I do not [b]believe [/b]that if it wasn't for religion we'd have sat about picking our noses instead of building nice stuff. The desire to create is innate, and the desire to see nice things is also innate.

[b]Maybe [/b]if the church hadn't been spuffing money up the wall trying to impress other rich people they could have been helping the poor or something.

You can't say for sure what would have happened. And before you pick holes in me, look at the words in bold.

alright! I'm just typing train of though stuff, not saying I'm right like I think maybe in the past some of the best stuff was created to be like God? or in reverence to a God. To achieve greatness. It's not like that now, but you can't deny that Religion also has had a positive effect on humans. I'm being Devils advocate here btw.

Scientific discovery was held back for centuries by religious dogma, Galileo was in all sorts of trouble was he not? For pointing out that the powerful religious folk had got a whole load of their facts wrong. Where might we be now if the money spent on art back in medieval times was spent on social and scientific development?

And Unicorns - I mean I have no proof of those but I can make up some outlandish stories riddled with innacuracies if it helps?

Unicorns exist! They're fat and grey, and more commonly known as rhinos.

I have never ever met an intelligent AND educated believer.

I have. Guy at work is one of the most intelligent men I've ever met, knows loads about all aspects of science, is currently learning Russian for fun. He's a Christian. I had a lengthy debate about it, it boils down to compartmentalising.

Don't 90% of Earths population have some sort of religious belief?

Do they? Stats please.

Scientific discovery was held back for centuries by religious dogma

Yeah, look how scientifically advanced those places without the constraints of such religions became.

I dunno the stats Cougar it's just a bit of dialogue I remember from that film "Contact" 😆

Never mind, saved you the bother.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

Seems it's not far off.

Adherents 	Percentage of world population
----------------------------------------------
World pop. 	6.9 billion
Christianity 	2,331,509,000 	34%
Islam    	1,619,314,000 	23%
No religion 	1,100,000,000 	16%
Hinduism 	1,083,800,358 	15%
Buddhism 	690,847,214 	10%
Total    	6.8 billion 	93%

Wow.

[img] [/img]

what about all the other cultures that believe in a higher being or something "other". It's the same thing right? It's a belief system. just doesn't have a label? To me, that evidence suggest it's a pretty important part of being Human. Mindless Creationists can go suck a F&*^ though lol.

Peer reviewed double blind tested court admissible evidence?

Yeah, look how scientifically advanced those places without the constraints of such religions became.

Well all I'm saying is that Galileo and others were persecuted by the religious powers because they challenged the status quo with reality. It is because the constraints of religion relaxed that scientific development was able to flourish.

That's enough for me for tonight, will this still be going tomorrow? Kind of hope not 🙂

Scientific discovery was held back for centuries by religious dogma, Galileo was in all sorts of trouble was he not?

www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html

Might just be chrisitianity marvin. Islam did pretty well with it.

Cougar, does Sikhism add much to that? Last of the big 5

Where might we be now if the money spent on art back in medieval times was spent on social and scientific development?

Well, I live at sea level. So at a guess 5 meters underwater.

So some scientists believe in God. Good for them. What's that got to do with anything, it's just more people who believe something for no discernible reason other than it makes them feel good. I am pretty sure they didn't organise themselves into a powerful group in order to control the lives of the vast majority though.

Well, I live at sea level. So at a guess 5 meters underwater.

But the hoverboard would have been invented and we would be living on Mars so no worries!

And we would finally, definitively know which tyres were best for all Martian conditions, not to mention the optimal wheel size.

Cougar, does Sikhism add much to that? Last of the big 5

Dunno, I posted the source link above. Sikh and ye shall find, hehehe.

😆

An interesting and telling statistic (if you can find it) might be to compare the level of religious belief in first world countries with a largely educated population, against third world countries.

Found it.

[img] [/img]

Telling I think.

Not much for Sikhism, it seems. Less than 1%.

The world maps are really interesting. For instance,

Percentage of people who are / aren't religious, by country (darker = more irreligious):

[img] [/img]

EDIT - simultaneous posts.

Note: Will people stop using Wikipedia as a reference. It's shite. They can even spell 'paedia'!

Scientific discovery was held back for centuries by religious dogma

Held back by the Catholic church, you mean.

Did all catholics think the same way? You have no idea.

This is the same old crap. People thinking they are being oh so clever when in fact they are being simple and are too simple to realise how simple they are being.

G'night.

Did all catholics think the same way? You have no idea.

They don't have to, only those in charge matter.

Will people stop using Wikipedia as a reference. It's shite.

... in your opinion.

The 'importance of religion' map they have is based on Gallup data, same as yours.

molgrips you may be right. Only a few of us realize how simple we really are.

... in your opinion.

And a great many others. There are so many glaring errors, some deliberate, some through ignorance.

T'was a general comment, not related to your map.

Is this the longest troll thread ever on stw?

Only a few of us realize how simple we really are.

One only has to look at the wonders found it nature, to see not only how simple we are, but in many ways, how backward.

Held back by the Catholic church, you mean.

Did all catholics think the same way? You have no idea.

well there is a big book that tells them what to think, a leader on earth who tells them what to think [ infallibly of course] an organised religion that tells them what to think and a priest who tells them what to think just in case they forget.

This is the same old crap. People thinking they are being oh so clever when in fact they are being simple and are too simple to realise how simple they are being.

I dont get your point nor your strop tbh.
Religion held back science because every time it disagreed with the bible they objected and they had great power

Its not really that debatable tbh.

And a great many others.

As this thread ably proves, a lot of people believing something doesn't make it fact.

There are so many glaring errors, some deliberate, some through ignorance.

So some people say. Never seems to be demonstrable though.

Those maps are interesting in the way that China sticks out as either not surveyed or not religious. I'm thinking not religious= not surveyed!

Those maps are interesting in the way that China sticks out as either not surveyed or not religious. I'm thinking not religious= not surveyed!

... is the correct answer.

Just for Tucker,

[img] [/img]

Never seems to be demonstrable though.

You jest surely? I see articles in the news almost weekly where some dozy **** here has copied off Wiki only to find (to their mortal embarrassment) that the information was nonsense.

You should start a new thread on this one, but good luck with that.

Edit: 'Here' meaning UK, not STW.

And a great many others. There are so many glaring errors, some deliberate, some through ignorance.

Eight 'undred!