[Closed] Creationist religious nutjob on R4 "One to One 9.30am"

why aren't people with such beliefs sectioned under the mental health act?

Because sectioning people who have a different view of life to you is about as retarded as imprisoning people who have a different sexual orientation to you.

I'm 100% with somafunk.

Kenny, I agree, Saville should have been locked up years ago.

I could not be in more violent disagreement with creationists if I tried, but I wholeheartedly agree with Kenny Senior.

Somafunk you're bordering on being offensive with your comments.

give them a children's pop-up book on dinosaurs?

The fossils were made in sediment from Noah's flood, which wiped out the dinosaurs. Even Noah couldn't get two of every dinosaur onto a boat.

[i]Creationist teaching in certain American states[/i]

A number of proposed Free Schools in the UK have also proposed this. Most subsequently removed it from publicity material when it was pointed out it was illegal but I suspect they'll actually do it anyway.

I have no problem with different points of view.

What really boils my wee is State funded religious schools. Why should I pay to indoctrinate other peoples children into a belief system?

I predict this thread will descend into utter hypocrisy very soon.

What really boils my wee is State funded religious schools. Why should I pay to indoctrinate other peoples children into a belief system?

I agree with this. The worse part though is not that your funding the teaching of a religious belief, after all faith schools do perform significantly better than non-faith schools so there is a benefit to society.

No the more pernicious part is that in order to get the best education without having to pay for it, at least one parent has to subscribe to the school's associated church.

Pulling up a chair.

Sapiens Creationi

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.conservapedia.com/Dinosaur ]Creationist Dinosaurs[/url]

Its all covered here.

T-Rex was a vegan and use to go on long walks with Adam

Why on earth do the disciples of received opinion get so irate about what these things?

Pulling up a chair.

Don't get comfortable. Basically more or less everyone agrees with the sentiment expressed by the OP, just not how it's been put.

I shared a house at Uni with a creationist. She was a very bright girl. Her belief in the story of Genesis was absolute and literal. I was the first time that I'd come across someone who thought like this and it was quite a surprise.

[i] I was the first time that I'd come across someone who thought like this and it was quite a surprise. [/i]

I always find it really hard to deal with. You can't have a discussion without appearing to be trying to undermine their whole religious belief.

My mum is a minister and believes in the literal truth of the Bible.

We don't discuss religion much - there's no common ground and I think we both accept no one's going to change their opinion.

What really boils my wee is State funded religious schools. Why should I pay to indoctrinate other peoples children into a belief system?

... but you're happy to pay to indoctrinate them with [i]your[/i] "belief system" that they shouldn't have a religious belief?

Excellent logic. (well, this is STW I suppose).

😀

I and my wife are Christians. It doesn't boil our wee that we're paying for state schools to indoctrinate other peoples children into a non-religious belief system.

😀

Ultimately, having a religious belief is called "making a personal choice".

In the UK at least, beliefs are still taught as options/choices, not enforced.

It still beggars belief that most of our society is centred around teachings which have been proven wrong.
I wish that all the religions would say fair enough its all bollocks. We shall call our selves Nice Club from now on. They can still sing happy songs and help people.Obviously they will skip the hating certain people bits.
I'm all for sun worshipping. Its definitely there and it gives life to our planet.
Thank you Sun.

[i].. but you're happy to pay to indoctrinate them with your "belief system" that they shoudln't have a religious belief?[/i]

errm, how does that work?

Non religious state schools don't have lessons on "how to be a good atheist" do they?

[i]In the UK at least, beliefs are still taught as options/choices, not enforced. [/i]

If you go to a state funded school that is run by a particular religious group you have to attend a daily act of worship and listen to all of the specific religious views that the school teaches. There is no option or choice for the child.

anyway, as I said above, there's no common ground so it's largely a pointless discussion. Which is [i]very [/i]stw. So I'm out.

I and my wife are Christians. It doesn't boil our wee that we're paying for state schools to indoctrinate other peoples children into a non-religious belief system.

Presume from the smiley face that you aren't really serious, but exactly what is wrong with the state just educating people in you know science and stuff and leaving religion to take place privately?

Its not a "different view of life ", its provably false.

I'm not sure how many times it needs to be explained to joao3v16 and, presumably, his wife, that evidence-based science is not a "belief system".

Sits back.

From a personal perspective I think that state funded schools should be secular.
Religion is personal choice and religious teaching should funded and delivered outside the scope of the learning environment.

Evolution is just a theory - one that is full of holes too

Oh good, this again.

😐

If you go to a state funded school that is run by a particular religious group you have to attend a daily act of worship and listen to all of the specific religious views that the school teaches. There is no option or choice for the child.

All state schools, even ones not run by a faith group, have to have a [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/sep/11/daily-worship-schools-law ]daily act of collective worship which is broadly Christian in nature[/url]. [i]All[/i] schools are required by law to indoctrinate our children into the (Anglican) Christian faith, though thankfully most schools ignore, or just pay lip service to, this requirement.

Evolution is just a theory - one that is full of holes too

So's gravity. Do you ever feel like just floating off?

Good point Mike.

I'm pleased to say that all of the schools my children have attended have cheerfully ignored this aspect of the law 🙂

[i]Evolution is just a theory - one that is full of holes too [/i]

and if someone comes up with a better - scientifically based - theory then all the agnostics/atheists will cheerfully accept it.

Anyone with a religious belief will have to stick with what some bloke 3000 years ago thought God had told him to say, regardless of the facts.

I said I was out, didn't I. Damn.

re: mr woppit, your belief system whatever it may be, cannot help but colour how you view everything including scientific evidence. you can't get away from your presuppositions.

So's gravity. Do you ever feel like just floating off?

Aw come on; the evidence for gravity is a lot stronger than for evolution even if evolution is almost certainly true.

As for secular schooling, well all I can say is that those damn Americans have precisely the right idea (as do the French).

It is illegal there to have any kind of worship in schools.

You can't have a discussion without appearing to be trying to undermine their whole religious belief.

*but still ultimately flawed

even if evolution is almost certainly true.

Some doubt creeping in there! 😆

It still beggars belief that most of our society is centred around teachings which have been proven wrong.

thing is many of the teachings do make sense, ten commandments as a general guide work.

Many of them also don't anymore, the bible is a book writen over thousands of years and reflects the world of its writers. It does contain a large amount of middle eastern history just hidden amongst a load of crap.

as for this being a christian country? why do we allow usury????

As for teaching it, no issue, just teach it as a historical source, teach it alongside norse/greek/roman mythology, budhism, islam, etc etc.

What also should be taught is that the bible, koran, etc are responsible for some of the stupidity around, they are books, but they have been edited and twisted by some for their own ends.

Some doubt creeping in there!

I like Karl Popper's philosophical definition of science.

A scientific 'fact' is only a fact in the absence of falsifying evidence. Nothing that is scientific can be conclusively proven to be true; it can only be conclusively proven not to be false at any given moment.

This means that all scientists should be prepared to accept their theory as being potentially wrong, which is the key difference between science and religion, at least as far as I can tell.

Aw come on; the evidence for gravity is a lot stronger than for evolution even if evolution is almost certainly true.

Actually there is a big slice of physics that simply has to ignore gravity to make the equations work

There is not a similar conflict in biology or other natural sciences over the role of evolution.

So on that basis evolution is a more sound theory than gravity

It still beggars belief that most of our society is centred around teachings which have been proven wrong.
I wish that all the religions would say fair enough its all bollocks. We shall call our selves Nice Club from now on. They can still sing happy songs and help people.Obviously they will skip the hating certain people bits.
I'm all for sun worshipping. Its definitely there and it gives life to our planet.
Thank you Sun.

So, next Ophera show is the Pope....

"So, Mr Pope, just answer 'Yes' or 'No'..."
"You agree that the bible is a pile of bollox with no more relvence than Lord of the Rings?"..... "Yes"
.....

I went to a mates church one night for a lecture from an ex assassin guy who had found religion and converted and 'forgave' himself... anyway, went for a meal afterwards and the guys were laughing about a guy they knew who insisted he was once abducted by aliens.

They were mocking him as they insisted aliens don't exist.

I piped up that jesus and god don't exist.

You know that silence that descends upon a group when someone says something they don't like... i ate my spare ribs and left.

Religion is personal choice and religious teaching should funded and delivered outside the scope of the learning environment.

I didn't think religion was taught in schools to make people religious, I thought it was taught to educate about different cultures, lifestyles etc?

My 6yo goes to a C of E school. They're not taught only about Christianity. They're not taught "Islam* is wrong" etc.

(* other religions are available)

As for the Creation vs Evolution thing, it seems to pretty much boil down to animals/plants showing similar characteristics (genetics, dna).

If things have evolved, you'd probably expect to see similarities.
Similarly, with intelligent design / creation, you'd probably expect to see the same similarities - why reinvent the wheel every time when certain genes or dna strings can be re-used.

😀

I know some Christians and went to church for a while. I used to get wound up when the creationists got going and when one said in a discussion with other Christians that anyone who wasn't a creationist wouldn't go to heaven I told him that the vicar of the church he went to wasn't a creationist. He said he knew the vicar very well and doubted I was right. Maybe it was a coincidence but he soon left that church. He was a bright guy - highly paid lawyer - so it's not about intelligence.

re: mr woppit, your belief system whatever it may be, cannot help but colour how you view everything including scientific evidence. you can't get away from your presuppositions.

I know that I am guilty of this.

If it is proven science I tend to believe something.
If the facts fit, but there is no definite proof I tend to believe something is a theory.
If it is in the Bible [s]I tend to think[/s] it is horseshit.

Because sectioning people who have a different view of life to you is about as retarded as imprisoning people who have a different sexual orientation to you.

You think its rational to believe in creationsims then and that the evidence supports this

They DSMV [ ar eyou mad checklist]specfically mentions "culturally accepted beliefs" to exempt religion as it would tick all the boxes of madness otherwise- its an irrational belief as there is not enough evidence to support the conclusion

I could not be in more violent disagreement with creationists if I tried, but I wholeheartedly agree with Kenny Senior.

Somafunk you're bordering on being offensive with your comments.

Evolution is just a theory - one that is full of holes too

Its funny to listen to folk witha religious view claim evolution has holes - its incpomplete for sure but creationism is nothing but holes

Aw come on; the evidence for gravity is a lot stronger than for evolution even if evolution is almost certainly true

All state schools, even ones not run by a faith group, have to have a daily act of collective worship which is broadly Christian in nature. All schools are required by law to indoctrinate our children into the (Anglican) Christian faith, though thankfully most schools ignore, or just pay lip service to, this requirement.

THIS whats more if you belong to a faith you can demand to go to the faith school of your choice and we will bus you there. If you choose to go to a non faith school you get to go to the nearest school irrespective - only the religious have the choice to choose. Once in our non faith school we still have to worship and study RE to age 16 so it sort of negates your view about choice and equality as only the religious choose their school and only the religious teach us all how to be religious - there is no aethism act in school. Would you be happy if we did this to you ..would it be reasonable?
Still why would I expect logic from one of faith?
Kepep the faith as you sure dont have any evidence for your fanciful view

 

I didn't think religion was taught in schools to make people religious, I thought it was taught to educate about different cultures, lifestyles etc?

My 6yo goes to a C of E school. They're not taught only about Christianity. They're not taught "Islam* is wrong" etc.

There's a difference between religious studies and the acts of worship. In assemblies, I bet they're told about Noah's ark and Jesus' parables and say Christian prayers and sing Christian hymns.

As for the Creation vs Evolution thing, it seems to pretty much boil down to animals/plants showing similar characteristics (genetics, dna).

If things have evolved, you'd probably expect to see similarities.
Similarly, with intelligent design / creation, you'd probably expect to see the same similarities - why reinvent the wheel every time when certain genes or dna strings can be re-used.

Ah yes, if you pick a little bit of evolution, you can make it fit with a designer. But as soon as you start introducing slightly bigger/different ideas, it starts making intelligent design look like a silly idea.

I've worked with 'Creationists' over in the 'states. Their 'belief' is totally beyond me.

Mind you, once at a party I was talking with a Dutch colleague and they couldn't believe that anyone would believe in 'creationism' - so he went for a chat with my Yank colleague. After an hour or so I popped into the conversation and it had almost finished - so I asked what were their views on abortion... 😆

ten commandments as a general guide work.

(with the obvious exceptions of no murder/theft)

your belief system whatever it may be, cannot help but colour how you view everything including scientific evidence. you can't get away from your presuppositions

Its true but what you forget is that science is a method of finding truth [ eliminating error]. It is not prescriptive about what will be found out just simply the way to find it.

Its true tahta when you say something we expect some evidence that is independently and objectively observable as true to support your view.
Why is this unwise?

Its strikes me as infinitely more rational than just going but I have this book and even though i know all[ or many of you prefer] the facts are wrong about how we came to be I STILL HVAE THIS BOOK.

Beleive i fyo wishbut you cannot think its a credible account of how we came to be - its a guess made by an uneducated person thousands of years ago with no access to what we know now.

Likewise new religiosn like Scientology link into to space travel and aliens and the like as even that is more plasusible [ imagine that space travelling laiens sedding life is more plausible that creationism - that how daft it is ].

When I become emperor of the world. Religious teaching will be banned during regular school hours, except during history classes when it's considered a requirement to understanding events of the period studied.

Religious groups of any faith would be free to run after school clubs, attendance would not be mandatory. All funding for these clubs would be raised by the religious groups themselves and they would receive no state funding, if they want to charge a fee that's up to them. It's there club.

Actually there is a big slice of physics that simply has to ignore gravity to make the equations work

This is quantum physics right?

You see don't you just love science! Something as self evident a gravity is on one scale and yet on another it doesn't work.

My argument is why would you feel the need to invent a God when the universe is more than fascinating, complex and awe inspiring as it is.

The evolution theory arguments are interesting. I've often thought about this and the question I have always had is, can you observe it happening?

Yes, you can observe random mutations happening in the gene pool. And yes, you can observe one creature being better able to survive than another.

What I've never quite been able to understand, is the process that random mutations seem to require continual development, i.e. a small fluctuation at one point in time, gives rise over millions of years, to a very large fluctuation. But it would almost seem as though the initial fluctuation wasn't enough to confer a big enough advantage to make a difference.

Of course over vast periods of time, small fluctuations do become very large fluctuations but this is almost where evolution relies on a degree of faith. We can show these things happening in statistical models, but because of the time gaps involved, we can't observe it directly.

Anyway all thoughts and criticisms of this line of thought are gratefully received.

He was a bright guy - highly paid lawyer - so it's not about intelligence.

Sometimes it is.
People can have a lack of intelligence( and understanding) in some areas,while appearing very intelligent in others.
😉

(with the obvious exceptions of no murder/theft)

Adultery doesn't usually go down well and neither does covetousness and lying about people is also to be frowned upon but I am all up for a bit of fornication.

Creationist Documentary:

If things have evolved, you'd probably expect to see similarities.
Similarly, with intelligent design / creation, you'd probably expect to see the same similarities - why reinvent the wheel every time when certain genes or dna strings can be re-used.

Here's a question. If intelligent design is correct, who / what created the creator?

I didn't think religion was taught in schools to make people religious, I thought it was taught to educate about different cultures, lifestyles etc?

My 6yo goes to a C of E school. They're not taught only about Christianity. They're not taught "Islam* is wrong" etc.

Yes c of e schools dont exist to make you a C of E school- any chance you could post up their mission statement and ethos please - IT will state their aim clearly - you will be arguing the C of E chirch does not promote C of E next

As for the Creation vs Evolution thing, it seems to pretty much boil down to animals/plants showing similar characteristics (genetics, dna).

That is simplistic

If things have evolved, you'd probably expect to see similarities.
Similarly, with intelligent design / creation, you'd probably expect to see the same similarities - why reinvent the wheel every time when certain genes or dna strings can be re-used

Why do we have an appendix ? What kind of designer would give us a useless defunct organ that sole purpose seems to be the ability to kill us without the intervention of medical science - its not very intelligent to do this tbh.
It is such a poor argument I am not even prepared to debate it as its laughably absurd

re the 10 commandments it allows slavery as you should not covet your neighbours slaves - what deity would approve of slavery? not one i would follow

Here's a question. If intelligent design is correct, who / what created the creator?

Or to put it in a scientific way, what happened before the Big Bang?

It's turtles all the way down.

hmmm nope have to disagree

(with the obvious exceptions of no murder/theft)

so which do you think are wrong?

ignoring the religious and no idols crap?

theft? murder? adultery? no days off? respect your family? no perjury? no jealousy?

FWIW, I think the current Theology, Philosophy and Ethics is one of the best academic subjects taught at A level. Interesting, thought provoking and academically challenging. I certainly wouldn't have been reading Kant as a 17-18 year old nor was I able to analyse religious texts with such rigour and thoroughness as students studying the subject now. They have taught me a lot!

GCSE/IGSCE is much more straightforward but is far from a Christian brainwashing exercise since it allows choice of religion and included comparative analysis of the world's major religions and non-religious views on ethics. Perhaps the most interesting part of that is the level of similarity rather than difference between many orthodox religios teachings on many ethical issues.

When people talk of the US and it's specific take on religion, perhaps they should be thinking of more rather than less education to allow people to take a far more critical view of religions texts and teachings. When one considers Genesis 1 as a poem, for example, (the symmetry and rhythm of the creation story is surely not accident) then it is easier to interpret in way that is quite some distance from the literal creationist interpretation that I guess the OP is objecting to.

[i]the C of E chirch does not promote C of E [/i]

well [b]this[/b] is clearly true.

The way I see it, with the "theory" of evolution, many scientists over many decades have sought to attempt to prove it. 1 persons evidence may not be enough but the weight of evidence collected and peer reviewed, year after year with improving technological advances make the "theory" more plausible.

With the theory of creationism, some dude wrote it in a book a few thousand years ago so you must believe it or you'll burn in the fires of hell. If you need proof you will also go to hell, you doubting sinner. Now praise my God or burn in hell.

I know which version I believe and that's with a Catholic education until 18 years old, happily the creationism crap was never taught in my school.

You think its rational to believe in creationsims then and that the evidence supports this

EDIT - [s]That's not what I said at all. Don't put words in my mouth junkyard, it's a very weak and somewhat desperate style of arguing.[/s]. Perhaps that is unfair of me, if what you typed is a question as opposed to a statement.

I don't say that creationism is rational.

I say that sectioning people who believe it to be true is retarded. Just like sectioning my wife who is scared of monsters would be retarded. To section people under the Mental Health Act because they believe in creation would be stupid - stupid because it would be wholly unnecessary and wholly disproportionate. I drew the comparison with the imprisonment of homosexuals to illustrate the degree of stupidity that I consider such a course of action would be.

As illustrated by the quotation of the question contained within the OP, what I wrote was my answer to the question
'[i]Why aren't people with such beliefs sectioned under the mental health act?[/i]' The answer, because to do so would be stupid, that's why.

does Quantum physics need to ignore gravity, or is it just that gravity is so weak at the quantum level that the effects are nearly zero?

there's a difference between needing to ignore gravity for the maths to work, and physicists getting bored of the fg = 0 parts of the equation, so leave them out.

i could very well be wrong.

'Why aren't people with such beliefs sectioned under the mental health act?' [b]The answer, because to do so would be stupid, that's why.[/b]

[i]i could very well be wrong. [/i]

which aren't words you'll hear from someone trying to explain creationism 😉

It's just a theory

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory ]Lots of people confuse 'theory' with 'hypothesis'[/url]

That's not what I said at all. Don't put words in my mouth junkyard, it's a very weak and somewhat desperate style of arguing.

Its a question - granted i miseed the ? - so no need to get that annoyed tbh
EDIT: To be fair to the poster he edited his comments whilst I was typing and not in response to what I wrote

'Why aren't people with such beliefs sectioned under the mental health act?' The answer, because to do so would be stupid, that's why.

point still remains they had to have an exemption for their irrational belief to stop it being called madness

I am not claiming all religious folk are mad but clearly they do believe in something , communicate with it and feels it presence in their life- if this is false we would term them mad

They are lucky as were they to do all this and claim it was the spirit of Odin or Napeoleon or the Mtrix they would be under a far greater risk than chanting in the streets about Jesus.
Its not madness becasue we accept it but its not rational behaviour either.
I dont think they are mad but they would also not score the highest on the JY sanityometer

Or to put it in a scientific way, what happened before the Big Bang?

God lit a firework, obviously 🙄

Of course over vast periods of time, small fluctuations do become very large fluctuations but this is almost where evolution relies on a degree of faith. We can show these things happening in statistical models, but because of the time gaps involved, we can't observe it directly.

Evolution has been observed on a very human time-scale. Bugs that have grown resistant to medications, mosquito's that have adapted to withstand insecticides, and perhaps most famously "the peppered moth".

So did anyone actually listen to the programme then?

muppetWrangler - Member
When I become emperor of the world. Religious teaching will be banned during regular school hours, except during history classes when it's considered a requirement to understanding events of the period studied.

That sounds a lot like the way it happens in much of the civilised world. Certainly it was my experience growing up in Canada. (And that's all that counts, really.)

Can I just say that nobody has challenged the OP on the fact that the programme he was listening to was about exploring the human characteristic of [i]perseverance[/i], and so it was [i]kind of the whole flippin' point[/i] to have on someone with very non-mainstream (extreme) views!

Rusty give over trying to bring reality and something pertinent into this

We have soap boxes not out of our way and let us sound off

PS funny comment 😀

It may well be irrational, I make no comment in that regard. My point was, and remains, that sectioning would be an absurdly disproportionate and unjustifiable response.

Religion is bollox.
All of them.
Ban them all.

ten commandments as a general guide work

Ignoring the ones about compulsory loving and worship of someone you also have to fear, the ones that work all pre-date the ten commandments and exist in all cultures. They're human rules, not Christian/Jewish rules.

Pretty soon after giving the commandment to murder, God told off Moses because they didn't kill enough people.

Allegedly...

Allegedly...

I have the same level of confidence that God told Moses he should have killed more people as I do in the fact he wrote the commandments on stone tables at the top of a mountain...

“pernicious part is that in order to get the best education without having to pay for it, at least one parent has to subscribe to the school's associated church.”

That’ll be me and the Mrs then.

Started going to church a year before choosing which school we wanted our little girl to go to (about 2 years ago now). Wasn’t sure about it all, but thought lets just go to keep our options open, we might end up choosing one of the other local schools when the time comes. It meant giving up the Sunday morning rides but I made the decision to go into the church with a open mind … I saw little point in having to sit there with a preconceived idea of ….not liking it, what a waste of time, I could be out on my bike rather than listening to this mumbo jumbo.

So two years later, that decision to be open minded is right up there with the best choices I’ve ever made. I’ve told you guys before ( and I’ll tell you again in the future )…. I’ve never felt more happy, empowered, relaxed and free since I’ve been going to church. Let alone met loads of new like minded friends within a very welcoming wider church/school community….

To top it off, my little girl has made a fantastic start in the voluntary funded church school. It was open yesterday, some of you will be glad to hear, the kids had a snowball fight with the Head Master.

On the creationist point… we’ll yeah that’s one I can’t get my head around… and as for gravity/QM etc, best you speak to the pie n liquor… he’s got a doctorate in theoretical physics

considering the consistency of the rules set out in the bible, the wrath and vengeance applied if they're not followed and all this being done under the pretence of 'i love you guys, i'm doing it cos i love you', can we please just accept that if god exists, god is a domestic abuser and most probably female?

I reckon trying to undersand why people believe in creationism is the key.

Might help us to halt the rise in the number of people who believe in it, which is the thing that scares the gravy out of me.

Rationalism is on the decline. Personally I think we're not encouraging children to explore the wonders of science and the natural world in the same way we used to. Kids don't connect with nature in the same way.
That gap in development is sadly easily filled by the teachings of religious charlatans.
We need to finda way to encourage kids to question more, whilst retaining the respect of those trying to promote rational thinking.

I've noticed that these threads are drawing less and less supporters of superstition to the argument than formerly. The few who do turn up, seem to quickly fade away.

Evolving, in fact. 😉

I’ve never felt more happy, empowered, relaxed and free since I’ve been going to church.

Bully for you. Not evidence of god, however.

Or maybe, as their numbers rise, they feel more secure in their beliefs?

Sad, isn't it?

and...

To top it off, my little girl has made a fantastic start in the voluntary funded church school.

"The indoctrination of children into religious dogma is a form of child abuse."

Comfortable with that?