it’s all becoming a bit...
Given that it's the road from Hebden to Heptonstall, that's entirely appropriate.
There's an interesting plan brewing in the backgroud for energy companies. I could see this happening. Usual prop-up job.
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1562335334607687680?s=20&t=r-FumNidTZUJSSMq5YlHxg
Why do you think the energy companies want govt help - so they get paid!
This is the cost of war. You either suck it up or let Putin win. He has us by the balls and knows it.
This is the cost of war. You either suck it up or let Putin win.
Now both sides cannot back down because they need to save face. Keep this up for another 2 years and life will become rather unbearable for some many.
He has us by the balls and knows it.
Our balls were offered to him and he just accepted them.
I bet he is caressing them with pleasure before he squeezes them. Ouch!
This is the cost of war.
It isn't the cost of war, it is the cost of corporate profiteering.
The direct impact of the war on energy supplies will be felt in those countries who's supplies are now limited and may need to ration in the winter, the rising energy prices is the cost of greed, the war is nothing but an excuse.
IF I have the right Richard Murphy (there are a few 🙂 ), Wikipedia has a write up, including a quote from Hansard, "Labour's Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell stated with regard to Murphy, "He is not the economic adviser and never has been, because we doubted his judgment, unfortunately. He is a tax accountant, not an adviser. He is actually excellent on tax evasion and tax avoidance, but he leaves a lot to be desired on macroeconomic policy""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Murphy_(tax_campaigner)
It isn’t the cost of war, it is the cost of corporate profiteering.
The direct impact of the war on energy supplies will be felt in those countries who’s supplies are now limited and may need to ration in the winter, the rising energy prices is the cost of greed, the war is nothing but an excuse.
I agree fully - the russian invasion of ukraine has accelerated, maybe that's the wrong word... caused certain minds to focus on, what was already a huge and ever growing crisis that pretty much everyone in UK politics has been ignoring for decades, the vast year on year record profits are going somewhere, yet the prices still keep climbing.
Follow the money.
It isn’t the cost of war, it is the cost of corporate profiteering
It's the cost of doing bugger all about climate change for the last thirty/forty years
The cost of posturing about climate change making western companies reluctant to invest in new fossil production?
The cost of posturing about climate change making western companies reluctant to invest in new fossil production?
An odd way of putting it, no one in their right mind surely thinks that further exploration and production is a good thing?
The blame for this one is purely at the government's door.
The private sector was never going to invest in renewables before it was profitable, that's just plain capitalism. And subsidies just pumped money into generators both large and the middle class gravy train that was the FIT.
They could have seen the need for green energy coming and started an entirely new publicly owned industry off the back of it. But nope, just half ass it and crossed their fingers the market would take care of it and there wouldn't be any unpleasant shocks in the meantime ........
An odd way of putting it, no one [s]in their right mind[/s] without even the slightest clue about the many uses of crude oil or gas beyond fuel surely thinks that further exploration and production is a good thing?
FTFY
Hope you don't want roads/pavements/runways in your brave new world.
Or medicines.
Or plastics.
Or paint.
Or anything with moving parts.
My EDF Lecky bill was due on 13 Aug, might they be dragging it out for the new price cap tomorrow?
FTFY
Hope you don’t want roads/pavements/runways in your brave new world.
Or medicines.
Or plastics.
Or paint.
Or anything with moving parts.
Yea........ I'd tell you who I work for but it would breach our social media policy 🤣 I'll leave it as read that mine would be an unpopular opinion amongst management. The sooner the company put us to better use on the renewables projects they keep talking about in their press releases the better.
Besides, we're talking about energy, not petrochemicals. There's more than enough production to keep us in disposable plastic trinkets for the foreseeable future, or medicine for the next few millennia if we're going that far down the value added chain.
This is the cost of war.
I see you have swallowed the propaganda. It's astonishing the effort people like yourself go to to make excuses for corporate greed even when you're the victim of it. Dominic Cummings had something to say on this yesterday and I fully agree with him.
https://twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1562465217292140544?s=20&t=KcZI-dlwLxzQJd8asaLo8A
Yea…….. I’d tell you who I work for but it would breach our social media policy 🤣 I’ll leave it as read that mine would be an unpopular opinion amongst management. The sooner the company put us to better use on the renewables projects they keep talking about in their press releases the better.
Besides, we’re talking about energy, not petrochemicals. There’s more than enough production to keep us in disposable plastic trinkets for the foreseeable future, or medicine for the next few millennia if we’re going that far down the value added chain.
Maybe maybe not, a transition isn't going to happen overnight and it's not just the UK that needs to do it so like it or not exploration and extraction WILL continue for some time to come. I don't like it FWIW but the changes are happening.
I see you have swallowed the propaganda. It’s astonishing the effort people like yourself go to to make excuses for corporate greed even when you’re the victim of it. Dominic Cummings had something to say on this yesterday and I fully agree with him.
Despite him agreeing with the person you're trying to argue with?
rising energy prices is the cost of greed
populist as that view may be, its not quite as simple as that.
demand for gas has risen globally, and especially for non-russian gas. If the gas extracting companies charged the same amount as last year, who do they sell their finite stock to? whoever asks first? what do we do when it all runs out? Blackouts and unable to heat/cook food don't seem like a great idea.
Higher prices surpress demand. if we can't increase supply, what other options do you propose?
Despite him agreeing with the person you’re trying to argue with?
No I'm arguing with the point that we simply have to 'endure' and accept higher prices because of the war in Ukraine. The govt can do something about that, but so far they're refusing to do anything, the result of which will be the collapse of the UK economy.
I Know Cummings is down with the youth and all that with his social media manipulation. Can someone explain to this millenial what TF this means?
"The 💣💣 will babble, collapse & 🛒 like the 🛒 himself, & do a *massive* bailout"
Higher prices surpress demand. if we can’t increase supply, what other options do you propose?
The free market mechanism for setting prices can not solve this problem and will only make it worse. The other options are obvious, which is for the govt to take energy into public ownership and then set the prices to end users at a level which households and businesses can afford.
“The 💣💣 will babble, collapse & 🛒 like the 🛒 himself, & do a *massive* bailout”
💣💣 = Liz Truss
🛒 = Boris Johnson
Basically he's saying Truss will do exactly the same as Johnson did during the pandemic, which is to delay action til the last minute, then do a massive u-turn when she realises it will make her very unpopular.
The free market mechanism for setting prices can not solve this problem and will only make it worse. The other options are obvious, which is for the govt to take energy into public ownership and then set the prices to end users at a level which households and businesses can afford.
right, but if they're at that level, demand continues to be high. If every government does that, usage doesn't drop, and we run out of gas. Keeping demand where it is doesn't work - there isn't enough gas.
You could theoretically keep prices low for the first x units, then inflate the prices outside of that but that then punishes some old dear in an un-insulated 300 year old hut in the hills of scotland. Doesn't seem fair?
Keeping demand where it is doesn’t work – there isn’t enough gas.
I've never said we should keep demand where it is. Obviously we need to reduce demand for gas, but doing that by crashing the economy is monumentally stupid.
He calls Johnson 'the trolley' because he veers around like a broken supermarket trolley, changing direction all the time, crashing into things, completely lacking a sense of direction.
He calls Truss 'the hand grenade' (i think) because she breaks everything.
I’ve never said we should keep demand where it is. Obviously we need to reduce demand for gas, but doing that by crashing the economy is monumentally stupid.
how do you drop demand then, in the short term? things like insulation are all well and good, but won't fix things this winter.
there isn’t enough gas
As I understand it, the amount of gas or oil on the market can to some extent be controlled.
how do you drop demand then, in the short term?
There is no way in the short term. You're assuming that gas will run out. Is that realistic? Last I heard only around 5% of UK gas comes from Russia. That doesn't insulate us from price fluctuations but it at least means we can maintain supply even if it costs more. The problem is not a shortage of gas, but the increasing cost of it. In the short term we need to address the cost, and in the long term diversify our energy generation so we don't end up in a situation where we can be held to ransom by profiteering suppliers.
There is no way in the short term. You’re assuming that gas will run out. Is that realistic? Last I heard only around 5% of UK gas comes from Russia. That doesn’t insulate us from price fluctuations but it at least means we can maintain supply even if it costs more. The problem is not a shortage of gas, but the increasing cost of it. In the short term we need to address the cost, and in the long term diversify our energy generation so we don’t end up in a situation where we can be held to ransom by profiteering suppliers.
we don't get much gas from russia, but we do get a lot from other northern european countries (like norway), who are also selling gas to the rest of the EU. lets assume for ease that the market is limited to that.
There isn't enough non-russian gas in northern europe to provide energy to everyone who wants it. Demand outstrips supply until the demand is surpressed, in this case by increasing the price.
Say demand is outstripping supply (after all the new shipments that can be done this year) by 10%.. Under the current model (massive price hikes) there will be an impact on gas consumption in the uk. Lets say this forces us to drop our demand by 10% as a result, as do other countries using a lot of gas in northern europe. All of a sudden, demand matches supply.
If our government blocked the price rises (by subsidising them, or whatever), our demand would not go down - it would stay flat. This means that on the open market, the price will rise by more than it is currently rising, as the demand is higher.
If every goverment in the market did this, and assuming their pockets are infinately deep, the price rises on the market would have no limit. Something else would have to be done to cap prices and reduce demand. This could be turning back to russia for gas (politically difficult), stopping heating\powering public buildings (being done in germany), or.. errr?? if demand is supressed and there's no increase in supply there just isn't enough product around.
we produce about half of the gas we consume. The only way we could completely isolate would be to nationalise those gas sources and half our gas use. We could do this over the course of a few years by spinning up coal fired power stations or renewables, and insulate more, but that doesn't solve the problem this year
If our government blocked the price rises (by subsidising them, or whatever)
Are you seriously suggesting that the govt should do nothing and allow prices to rise beyond a level which people and businesses can afford? Solving the problem of high energy prices by crashing the economy is obviously not a solution.
Something else would have to be done to cap prices and reduce demand.
Like nationalisation?
Are you seriously suggesting that the govt should do nothing and allow prices to rise beyond a level which people and businesses can afford?
I think he explained why quite well (at least to my laymans brain). The best result from gov. intervention is that we find the UK (and probably German) government pockets are deeper than the rest of Europe's and we starve them out of energy while we carry on hunky dory.
Alternatively we all come to some sort of continent wide agreement to limit our use with rationing or rolling blackouts to keep the price down... with I imagine similar economic fallout when businesses can't operate with no power for half the week, what do they do?
The high energy prices are a result of the war in Ukraine. If it was over in days and Putin won, Europe would be getting gas from Russia again. You can't sanction Russia and ask for cheap gas from them at the same time.
The best solution i've heard so far is to adjust income+corporation tax thresholds thus:
It's actually not households or businesses i'm worried about - it's the public sector. They just don't have the spare cash to suffer higher costs and I see no current political will to help.
It’s actually not households or businesses i’m worried about – it’s the public sector.
It's not an either-or choice. The entire economy is at risk. Economic activity is directly dependent on energy, and we're allowing the price of that to increase by a factor of 3 for households and factor of 10(ish) for everything else. No economy can survive that sort of shock. I really don't understand why there isn't greater alarm or urgency about this. We're literally staring into the abyss.
10 nuclear power stations would help. Can you get them done by Christmas?
Seriously though, watch the LBC video I posted. Adjusting income tax and corporation tax for a few years would bring in some serious $$ to give over to low earners.
It’s actually not households or businesses i’m worried about – it’s the public sector. They just don’t have the spare cash to suffer higher costs and I see no current political will to help.
Magic Money Tree.
Works for everything else.
Seriously though, watch the LBC video I posted.
I did. They're talking about raising 12bn. It's at least 100bn short of what is actually required. Whether we like it or not preventing economic collapse is going to cost 100s of billions.
The other thing I don't understand is despite all the bluster and bravado about 'standing up to Putin', they're rolling over and allowing him to destroy the entire economy. Why?
No economy can survive that sort of shock
I t already has several times. Have a look at the oil price graph through the Suez crisis, early 70s, late 70s, Gulf war... . Brent crude is cheaper today than it was 10 years ago.
Are you seriously suggesting that the govt should do nothing and allow prices to rise beyond a level which people and businesses can afford? Solving the problem of high energy prices by crashing the economy is obviously not a solution.
afford as easily? yes. this is required. afford enough to stay safe? no.
Something else would have to be done to cap prices and reduce demand.
Like nationalisation?
nationalism wouldn't reduce demand, so wouldn't solve the problem. It works great in countries like norway, which are net exporters. We import half our gas.
Brent crude is cheaper today than it was 10 years ago.
cheaper in dollars, sadly way more expensive in GBP.
I don't know the answer then, sorry.
Seriously though, watch the LBC video I posted. Adjusting income tax and corporation tax for a few years would bring in some serious $$ to give over to low earners.
Income tax takes money out of the economy. Why would you want to do that?
Do people still believe income tax pays for things?
The reason to tax is to reduce surplus money in a overheating economy. We are so far from that.
Magic Money Tree.
Works for everything else.
Government spending is a big part of the solution. And it will come. There will be no choice.
It will probably be mess of support though.
afford as easily? yes. this is required.
We’re already at that point. Yet now we’re told bills are going to double again. So should we let that happen? Millions of businesses are going to go bust. Millions of households are not going to be able to pay their bills. Schools, hospitals, councils and other energy intensive public sector organisations are not going to have the money to operate. When all these consumers fail to pay their bills the energy companies will go bust. Then when the depression kicks in property and share values will collapse. Then the banks will go bust. Then the currency itself will collapse and people’s savings will be wiped out. So I ask again, is the risk of economic collapse a price worth paying to uphold free market ideology?
Without massive state intervention we're about to encounter the apocalypse.
Energy prices are out of control; retail sales are falling; brexit benefits are non-existent; post coronavirus recovery is weak, at best; uk manufacturing is almost non- existent.
Add this to the complete absence of political leadership; two candidates pandering to the perceived wishes of 160k tory members.
The british public deserve this as it's the ultimate expression of how too many have voted too often.
It's also a damning indictment of those who don't/didn't vote - it won't change anything, don't understand, don't care.
Coming to your area soon - civil unrest, mass protests, more burglaries/thefts/robberies, more shoplifting.
Not enough people are going to vote for a govt who’re honest about restricting car use.
this is a major issue. it seems that very few people are going to voluntarily inconvenience themselves to slow the demise of the environment. the is means that the damaging things need to be legislated against.
unfortunately very few people want the inconvenience (including the legislators) and won’t vote for it and the country can’t afford to provide the alternatives to private cars and reliance on fossil fuels.
then you consider that in the usa and canada many many people drive pickups and huge SUV’s as family cars that have 5 litre engines (often a couple per family) and have 3 kids per family you realize that what happens in the uk is hardly going to change anything.
then you think about the pollution coming out of the factories that make everything we buy/need and that lots of places in the world use their rivers as dustbins because the people in those countries don’t know about garbage island or global warming, or perhaps because there is no alternative available to them.
then you remember that there are people in the developed world who think that global warming isn’t man made and carry on as normal or believe it is their right to have a load of children/consume excessively/whatever.
we are doomed. i feel that our leaders (locally and out there in the rest of the world) know this which is why they do nothing. they can’t be as stupid and as greedy and as corrupt as they appear, can they?
oh, and rich people aren’t going to pay for the changes needed.
Exactly. Saving the environment is incompatible with our capitalist way of life. It’s a luxury few can afford when a family needs two cars to work multiple jobs to pay for astronomical rent/mortgage/energy bills. May as well look after this generation rather than make it miserable for everyone for longer. That ship has sailed. Bin off net zero, print off loads of money and let’s all party for the next fifty years until the whole shithouse goes up in smoke 🤠
Easy for me to say though as I don’t have kids. But then, isn’t it a bit mean to have kids now knowing they’ll be living in an apocalyptic hellscape.
Easy for me to say though as I don’t have kids. But then, isn’t it a bit mean to have kids now knowing they’ll be living in an apocalyptic hellscape.
who knows? it is pretty much too terrifying to contemplate.
