[Closed] Consumer rights types to the forum (car purchase)

Car was £2,275

At that price I believe the dealer has met his obligations and tried to sort the issue.

At that price I believe the dealer has met his obligations and tried to sort the issue.

^ I'd agree with this.

Unless you purchased an extended warranty and could take the issue up with them.

A fault after 6 months on a cheap car can't really be thrown back at the dealer, and he sounds like he's genuinely tried to help.

So, the fault developed at 6 months but when did you report it? and how much warranty did the dealer give (12 mth doesn't apply to second hand unless dealer offers).

You might be better getting an auto electrician to look at it. 3 citroen dealers failed to fix a headlight problem on a c2, they wanted to change the ECU, the headlight switch, steering wheel, airbag etc. A spark did it in about 15 mins. Some wiring fault.

At that car value I would suggest as above - get an auto electrician to look at it. If they can't fix it, I am sure they could totally bypass it and just wire it to a new switch? I wouldn't have thought that would fail an MOT?

Whats the problem with them?

Did you buy it from a SMART dealership or elsewhere?

I'm not sure what claim you believe that you'll have. Clearly the defect was not present when the car was sold. Unless the wipers are covered under the terms of a warranty, you are effectively reliant on good will from the dealer and it sounds like they've exhausted their options to help you.

The only 'claim' you may have is if there are specific warranty terms that the dealer/warranty company are refusing to honour. But, there are often caps on the value of repairs covered so these limited warranties are not blank cheques.

If the car was bought from a SMART dealer and has a FSH from a SMART dealer, then you may get some more mileage from pursuing a claim with SMART UK for additional support in diagnosing the fault. You'll really need the support of a main dealer here though.

Unless the wipers are covered under the terms of a warranty,

I doubt it, electrics are normally not covered.

wipers developed a fault which I did not chase at the time, being unaware of my rights.

it can't get through an MOT

What sort of fault do they have that means you can drive the car but that will cause it to fail it's MOT? Do you only use it on guaranteed dry days?

i thought they were notorious for intermittant failing

so long as rest works lifes good

otherwise i suspect youll be wiring in a dashboard switch with 12v through a relay to your motor 😀 - with a bracket made using a spoon for good measure 😀

How does price affect Consumer rights?

Fault occurred WITHIN 6 months.

Auto spark already looked at it.

Bought from Smart dealer yes.

https://www.theaa.com/car-buying/legal-rights SAYS:

If a fault comes to light after 30 days but before 6 months you’re entitled to a repair, replacement or refund.

It’s assumed in law that the fault was present at the time of purchase unless the seller can prove otherwise.
Unless you’ve agreed otherwise, the seller (dealer) has only one opportunity to repair (or replace) the faulty vehicle after which, if they fail to repair it, you’re entitled to a refund.
In the event of a refund following a failed attempt at repair during the first six months the seller may make a 'reasonable' adjustment to the amount refunded to take account of the use that you’ve had of the vehicle.

Wipers only work on intermittent setting, and give a half sweep. Dealer said SAM was sending signal for a different model (presumably a single-wiper model). I presumed this would be an MOT fail.

I don't want a bodge as that will diminish the value.

who changed the sam then - the dealer or the auto spark ?

Me. He sent me a new one.

EDIT - parking in the wrong place seems to be an MOT fail as it obscures your view.

So you have changed the Sam for a new one but it is from a different model or is he saying the previous one was from the wrong model ?

parking in the wrong place seems to be an MOT fail as it obscures your view.

I think that may be a driving test fail rather than MOT 🙂

Fault occurred WITHIN 6 months.

Yeah, but you didn't tell anyone, you sat on the problem for a year, so it effectively didn't. They're taking it on goodwill that it didn't fail last week and you're telling porkies, which seems reasonable to me.

I'm not sure what else to offer beyond "get a second opinion." A fault on a 2K car you've been driving round in for 18 months is unlikely to gain much traction under CRA I'm afraid. You're almost certainly outside any additional dealer warranty too, they're usually six or twelve months IME.

If you bought it in April 2016 have you not already put it through an MOT with the fault occurring?

IIRC there's an onus on the seller to show that faults on second hand cars weren't there at the time of purchase (or were known to the buyer) if they result in problems within a year, however I would say it's unlikely that this was an existing fault on a car of that value if it didn't show for 6 months (so you'd be unlikely to get anywhere), it sounds like the dealer's done their best to look after you.

I think your legal options are get a second opinion, throw money at it, browse deeply on specialist forums to find if there is some obscure mistake that can be made with getting the right parts, or buy something else.

Good luck!

who changed the sam then - the dealer or the auto spark ?

So you have changed the Sam for a new one but it is from a different model or is he saying the previous one was from the wrong model ?

I'm with TR here. Get the control module firmware flashed at a Smart dealer before going any further.

Most Smart main dealers haven't got a clue with the older models, they're mostly Mercedes dealers and cba to even bother trying to pretend they gaf, try to find a specialist who knows their onions and go from there, different models and years use different SAM units and if the one supplied is a used one from a breakers it could well be the wrong one for your car,
And as above it could be something really simple and you just need to scour the Smart forums and ask some questions and do some digging,
It might not even be the SAM unit, it could be a faulty stalk.

IIRC there's an onus on the seller to show that faults on second hand cars weren't there at the time of purchase (or were known to the buyer) if they result in problems within a year,

Six months, not a year.

Both SAMS from correct car AFAIK

Cougar - Moderator

Fault occurred WITHIN 6 months.

Yeah, but you didn't tell anyone, you sat on the problem for a year, so it effectively didn't. They're taking it on goodwill that it didn't fail last week and you're telling porkies, which seems reasonable to me.

I'm not sure what else to offer beyond "get a second opinion." A fault on a 2K car you've been driving round in for 18 months is unlikely to gain much traction under CRA I'm afraid.

Reasonable to ASSUME customer is lying? What's your source for this approach? I'd have thought any dispute would be dealt with in a court, with evidence taken from both parties. Another incorrect assumption - it's barely been driven for 1 year. Nice bias though.

MOT'd before fault occurred last August.

I'm with TR here. Get the control module firmware flashed at a Smart dealer before going any further.

I think that's what this guy did. He sells refurb'd SAMS and clones them too.

Khani - tried a stalk and all forums - no mention of this fault.

Reasonable to ASSUME customer is lying? What's your source for this approach?

Where did I say that? My point was that they don't know either way and have generously given the benefit of the doubt. Many companies wouldn't have.

I'd have thought any dispute would be dealt with in a court, with evidence taken from both parties.

Do you have any evidence that it failed within six months, beyond your own say-so? That'd get laughed out of any courtroom if not.

Another incorrect assumption - it's barely been driven for 1 year.

A year is still a year, whether it's been wrapped in cellophane in your garage or been driven twice round the world. There's no "unless you haven't used it much" clause in the CRA.

Nice bias though.

Hey, I'm trying to help here. Don't get grumpy at me because you've sat on a problem for a year before doing anything about it, that's your own bloody fault not mine.

MOT'd before fault occurred last August.

Oh, so no MOT at the moment then. I'd be doing some sort of fix so you can at least get it through the MOT.

Cougar - Moderator

Where did I say that? My point was that they don't know either way and have generously given the benefit of the doubt. Many companies wouldn't have.

Sorry, I misread your post.

Do you have any evidence that it failed within six months, beyond your own say-so? That'd get laughed out of any courtroom if not.

You're no lawyer, it's still evidence. Are you saying a witness to an assault gets laughed out of court because they only have their say so? Evidence from each side gets weighed up. In any event I have communications to other people re the problem.

A year is still a year, whether it's been wrapped in cellophane in your garage or been driven twice round the world. There's no "unless you haven't used it much" clause in the CRA.

What does the CRA have to say about this situation then?

Gary_M - Member

MOT'd before fault occurred last August.

Oh, so no MOT at the moment then. I'd be doing some sort of fix so you can at least get it through the MOT.

Hmm, I'll think about that, I'd need to understand the electronics and signallling I suppose...

so what have you actually done to look at this fault ?

has the motor been out and bench tested - by someone who understands electronics and signalling ?

Its had a reconditioned Sams

HAve you unplugged the motor and checked for a power to the motor when the stalk is in the on position

Hmm, I'll think about that, I'd need to understand the electronics and signallling I suppose...

No idea if this is possible but can't you bypass the stalk and just stick on an on/off switch on the dash that controls the motor?

I'd be giving a SMART Tuner a call and ask them first. SMARTs are a particular car and have many issues that have been smoothed out over the years and you need someone who knows what they are doing..

[url= http://www.smartcarspecialist.com ]SMART Tuner Guildford[/url]

I took my ForTwo Pulse there (when I owned it for stage two tune and brakes and steering setup improvements) and they were fantastic..

Just call them, ask the same question about the wipers.

The motor works, as it makes the wipers move.

It's also new.

Edit the dealer seems v clued up on SAMs, this issue is unheard of.

Are you saying a witness to an assault gets laughed out of court because they only have their say so? Evidence from each side gets weighed up. In any event I have communications to other people re the problem.

You aren't an independent witness. If you have written communications then that's fair enough, though I'd expect a court to question why you didn't report the fault earlier.

What does the CRA have to say about this situation then?

I thought we'd covered this? Within six months it's assumed to be an inherent fault at the time of purchase unless proven otherwise; outside of that it's assumed not to be (again, unless proven otherwise).

After six months, you're into the realms of the very grey "satisfactory quality" and "fit for purpose." This usually doesn't apply to second-hand goods, but it does still apply if you've bought a car from a dealer (as opposed to a private sale). Is a 2K car breaking in six months satisfactory quality? Probably not. After 18 months, you're probably on much shakier ground.

Yes we have covered that bit of the CRA, it's the post 6 month bit I was asking about, is this the CRA, your opinion, case law?

After six months, you're into the realms of the very grey "satisfactory quality" and "fit for purpose." This usually doesn't apply to second-hand goods, but it does still apply if you've bought a car from a dealer (as opposed to a private sale). Is a 2K car breaking in six months satisfactory quality? Probably not. After 18 months, you're probably on much shakier ground.

Any party to a claim is a competent witness BTW.

Edit Actually that bit you typed is irrelevant as it is within 6months. It's the subsequent delay that might alter things. Have you any info on that?

It's within six months if you can prove it was within six months. If you can't then it'll likely be treated as occurring when you reported it (or shortly before).

Reducto ad absurdum, you could have a ten year old $something that breaks, you say "oh yeah, it broke the day I bought it so I stuck it in a drawer for ten years, I'd like it fixing now please." Would you expect a retailer to honour that fault under SoGA? Without proof you are at best relying on supplier goodwill.

Any party to a claim is a competent witness BTW.

Perhaps so, but that doesn't mean all witnesses are valued equally.
Your family / friends (and you of course) are potentially biased and a court will surely take that into account. "It broke a year ago and I can prove it because I say so and I told my mate Dave at the time" may well be true, but it doesn't prove anything. Now, if you've texted Dave, or emailed him, that puts you in a much stronger position.

I'm not trying to be an arse here BTW, I just don't think that on the face of it you've got a very strong case if you decided to take the legal route. A supplier might well believe you, or not care and try and resolve it anyway for PR / goodwill reasons, but equally they might go "on your bike mate, do you think I'm daft?" In a court, you've reported a fault after 18 months, the onus is on you to prove that the fault was inherent when purchased, and that means proving that it failed in the first six months of ownership.

Have you paid for the work done so far or have they done it for free? If the latter I suppose that because the garage has already undertaken the work you could argue that they've already implicitly agreed that it was an inherent fault. That might be an angle to try, whether it'd hold any legal water I don't know.

[url= https://www.evilution.co.uk/Water%20Ingress/roadster_wiper_faults.htm ]which bits exactly have you changed ? [/url]

Terry, all of them, a year ago, as I more or less said already.

Cougar, as I've more or less said already (I'd have sore hands if I typed that every time I could have on this thread) I have correspondence to establish the fault occurred within 6 months.

I see you're not trying to be an arse, maybe read the thread to save your typing?

The work has been done at cost, which I see as helpful, albeit no reference has been made to CRA etc.

You've had a reconditioned SAMS. What else was reconditioned? Perhaps the SAM has the same fault as the previous one.

Also, using a relay/extra switch may be a bodge, but it doesn't need to be obvious or gaffer taped to the dash. And at a purchase price of £2250, I can't imagine there is much value to be lost. Certainly not as much as a car that can't get through the MOT.

Sure, and I guess it's just a switch...