[Closed] Conservative Friends of Israel

milkyman - Member

Chew nob head or what ever you call yourself

If there is going to be a fight and there already has been, 1800 dead as supposed to 80, would you not think it fair to give them some weapons and make it a fair fight, or do you like to watch bully's

Even if there is 1.8 billion death it is still a drop of water in the grand scheme of the universe.

I don't support either side as life is already hard for me.

🙄

Edit: the title "Conservative Friends of Israel" ... I am not their friends. 😆

1 death it's to many weather it's mine or yours or any body else, it's not on and it's not right

milkyman - Member

1 death it's to many weather it's mine or yours or any body else, it's not on and it's not right

errmm ... have you elevated yourself to a saint now?

Death surrounds us all and you cannot prevent that. You may perhaps prolong the life but death is a certainly for all.

The only difference is some died peacefully while others died in agony.

Give up death and you shall have peace.

🙄

You are a total and utter ****ing cock

milkyman - Member

You are a total and utter **** cock

Man blinded by his own ego see no elephants but himself.

😯

chewkw - Member

I don't support either side as life is already hard for me.

You're not going to start talking about your haemorrhoids again are you ffs ?

I am blind, your words 1.8 billion that's a big number
So how would you feel if was your mum dad sister wife etc and you had no house no water nothing to eat would you feel so bullish then?

You are a fool or a troll but if you really feel like the way you express your self I feel sorry for your narrow mind and your lack of sympathy for the human race

ernie_lynch - Member
You're not going to start talking about your haemorrhoids again are you ffs ?

Haemorrhoids is like the man's ego it comes and go, put some Anusol to soothe it then it will disappear until the next time it appears again. They are all gone now but thanks for asking.

milkyman - Member
I am blind, your words 1.8 billion that's a big number

Universe has no bound and even hundreds of universe perish it is nothing but a drop of water in grand scheme of things.

So how would you feel if was your mum dad sister wife etc and you had no house no water nothing to eat would you feel so bullish then?

If it is the time for them to depart this world so be it. Death is nothing but another journey. (okay for the scientific minded you turn to ashes ... stop arguing I know you lot)

You are a fool or a troll but if you really feel like the way you express your self I feel sorry for your narrow mind and your lack of sympathy for the human race

The nature of things cannot be controlled totally but merely to live along side them to your best.

🙄

You have your point of view and I respect that we all have one

milkyman - Member

You have your point of view and I respect that we all have one

Stop being angry with external matters because that will not do you good. Contemplate death and once you have let go of death you shall be in peace.

😀

But if your neighbour is the wrong colour, is not to a colour of your likeing, is on benifits , rides the wrong bike, then what do you do when it's closer to you

You really are a prick

milkyman - Member

But if your neighbour is the wrong colour, is not to a colour of your likeing, is on benifits , rides the wrong bike, then what do you do when it's closer to you

I see no colour but merely beings of different natures, if their hearts are good then we are all happy but if they have selfish hearts then I move on. Let them have it so long as they leave me in peace and do not intend to disturb me. 😛

milkyman - Member

You really are a prick

Anger will bring you nothing good. You will only harm yourself when the fire keeps burning inside you.

🙄

Right now I just think your a nob, with your silly emo things, there's nothing smiley about 1800 people dead

milkyman - Member

Right now I just think your a nob, with your silly emo things, there's nothing smiley about 1800 people dead

I don't blame you because the fire in your belly is still burning strong due to attachment to external matters like death.

😐

Well I hope you deal with death when it comes, it's not light hearted it doesn't come with a silly face, it means you have lost some one you love and will never see again do you understand that and it doesn't matter which side your on even if you have a side It hurts

Well. Someone has had enough.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/05/lady-warsi-resigns-government-gaza-stance

Most of the debate on here is a bit like the chicken and the egg debate, even when Israel aren't launching a full on offensive there is day to day tit for tat rocket launches by Hamas and air strikes by IDF, to really see where the blame lies you need to go all the way back to the creation of Israel and look at the maps of what was originally given over as the Jewish homeland, then compare it to today's map and decide how we came to this mess.

I'm happy to be corrected but wasn't there recently an EU sponsored agreement between Hamas and Fatah to have closer links to help push forward a peaceful agenda with the Israelis? I don't think this was exactly what Israel wanted and the rather convenient (though obviously tragic) kidnap and murder of three Israeli teenagers, which even the very right wing Sky news are reporting that Israel lied about to their public, was too good an opportunity to pass up on to start a war with Hamas and scupper any chance they'd have of forming a strong united diplomatic voice with Fatah.

As an aside, i went on holiday to Israel back in 2001, and whilst i found many Israelis to be warm and friendly people, there were plenty who with out being asked their opinion were only to glad to tell me how they thought that every Palestinian man women and child should be eradicated from the planet, because god promised them the place ! Pretty nasty people.

I'm happy to be corrected but wasn't there recently an EU sponsored agreement between Hamas and Fatah to have closer links to help push forward a peaceful agenda with the Israelis? I don't think this was exactly what Israel wanted and the rather convenient (though obviously tragic) kidnap and murder of three Israeli teenagers, which even the very right wing Sky news are reporting that Israel lied about to their public, was too good an opportunity to pass up on to start a war with Hamas and scupper any chance they'd have of forming a strong united diplomatic voice with Fatah.

I think you are absolutely spot on with that assessment.

Although I can't agree with your suggestion that [i]"there is day to day tit for tat rocket launches by Hamas and air strikes by IDF"[/i]. Ceasefires tend to hold up quite well for long periods. From an Israeli newspaper: [url= http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/ ]Hamas fires rockets for first time since 2012, Israeli officials say[/url]

milkyman - Member

Well I hope you deal with death when it comes, it's not light hearted it doesn't come with a silly face, it means you have lost some one you love and will never see again do you understand that and it doesn't matter which side your on even if you have a side It hurts

Live life as honestly or as good (rights) as you can so when death comes it will be a blessing.

Live a life of wrongs then you will fight death in your dead bed refusing to go in agony.

My love ones will die but before they do I want to make sure they do all the rights in life and that death is nothing but a journey. Nothing to fear so be at peace.

Bazz - Member

Most of the debate on here is a bit like the chicken and the egg debate ...

The cycle is very hard to break unless those that live in that regions understand that in their own hearts.

chewkw, you are Deepak Chopra and I claim my £5.

Bazz - Member

Most of the debate on here is a bit like the chicken and the egg debate, even when Israel aren't launching a full on offensive there is day to day tit for tat rocket launches by Hamas and air strikes by ID

In the run up to the Gaza war (2008) they had an extended spell of near-peace, with the IDF breaching the ceasefire more often than the palestinians. So it's not constant tit for tat.

Unfortunately the precedent is that if peace lasts too long, Israel'll shatter it.

(and as Ernie picks up, it's wrong to say rockets = Hamas, they certainly do fire rockets but they're far from the only ones operating)

There's another element with the Hamas and Fatah reconciliation deal, in that it forced a palestinian election within six months, this had been on the cards for some time and much of the belief in the Israeli camp was that the long period of tunnelling under the Gaza/Israel border had been preparatory for a series of major cross border attacks by Hamas as in the run up to these elections, either to attack civilian targets or to seize Israeli soldiers as prisoners as a pre-election publicity coup

resulting of course in the risk of the he nightmare scenario for Israel, being a Hamas controlled government covering both Gaza and West Bank

and thats why the tunnels are such a huge issue!

There is no doubt in my mind who the main aggressor is in this conflict, and i'm happy to be corrected on any of my points, it's just my experience from serving in Northern Ireland that a hell of a lot of "low level" stuff goes on daily with out ever making national news, i was under the impression that it was similar there.

Ninfan - there is a hell of a lot of conjecture there, and it sounds an awfully lot like Israeli propaganda.

AdamW - Member

chewkw, you are Deepak Chopra and I claim my £5.

Who?

Are you trying to make me work? I mean google this person?

😯

Bazz - Member

it's just my experience from serving in Northern Ireland that a hell of a lot of "low level" stuff goes on daily with out ever making national news,

Oh yeah, for sure there's everyday shittiness. Just not so much the rocket attacks, airstrikes etc.

chewkw: this link will enlighten you.... 😀

[url= http://www.wisdomofchopra.com/ ]http://www.wisdomofchopra.com/[/url]

the he nightmare scenario for Israel, being a Hamas controlled government covering both Gaza and West Bank

Hamas always emerges stronger after Israel goes on a killing spree. That's what has happened previously and there's no reason to think that this time it will be any different.

Unsurprisingly the brutal killing innocent men women and children merely radicalizes the Palestinians and makes them hate the Zionists even more.

And it tends to have a simular affect among non-Palestinians across the world.

Unfortunately Zionists are bigots and racist extremists who can't be restraint by pragmatic considerations such as that.

AdamW - Member

chewkw: this link will enlighten you....

http://www.wisdomofchopra.com/

FFS! More readings? My head hurts. I want to watch telly 😆

That's not a very good one, random chewkw generator isn't as good as random chopra.

Northwind - Member

That's not a very good one, random chewkw generator isn't as good as random chopra.

Ya, he has a website with random generator 😡 He wins hands down d'oh!

Well all of that stuff about there not being villages and packing handguns to travel is nonsense in most of Israel.
The last figures I saw were 92% of jewish Israelis lived in towns or cities, with the majority of the rest living on collective farms.

that's precisely my point. Israel is highly urbanized and the vast majority of people go around living totally normal European-style lifestyles. all of this stuff about guard turrets and handguns is the preserve of a minority of a minority - the subset of rural residents who are settlers. they're a small number, they're loopy and they're mostly the architects of the abnormality of their own lives.

i think this hits the nail on the head...

The Elders.... a group of statesmen brought together by Nelson Mandela...this is a brilliant, rationed argument for an equitable peace process by former US president Jimmy Carter and former Irish president Mary Robinson.

"Ending this war in Gaza begins with recognizing Hamas as a legitimate political actor.

Israelis and Palestinians are still burying their loved ones as Gaza's third war in six years continues. Since July 8, when this war began, more than 1,600 Palestinian and 65 Israeli lives have been sacrificed. Many in the world are heartbroken in the powerless certainty that more will die, that more are being killed every hour.

This tragedy results from the deliberate obstruction of a promising move toward peace in the region, when a reconciliation agreement among the Palestinian factions was announced in April. This was a major concession by Hamas, in opening Gaza to joint control under a technocratic government that did not include any Hamas members. The new government also pledged to adopt the three basic principles demanded by the Middle East Quartet comprised of the United Nations, the United States, the European Union, and Russia: nonviolence, recognition of Israel, and adherence to past agreements. Tragically, Israel rejected this opportunity for peace and has succeeded in preventing the new government's deployment in Gaza.

Two factors are necessary to make Palestinian unity possible. First, there must be at least a partial lifting of the 7-year-old sanctions and blockade that isolate the 1.8 million people in Gaza. There must also be an opportunity for the teachers, police, and welfare and health workers on the Hamas payroll to be paid. These necessary requirements for a human standard of living continue to be denied. Instead, Israel blocked Qatar's offer to provide funds to pay civil servants' salaries, and access to and from Gaza has been further tightened by Egypt and Israel.

There is no humane or legal justification for the way the Israeli Defense Forces are conducting this war. Israeli bombs, missiles, and artillery have pulverized large parts of Gaza, including thousands of homes, schools, and hospitals. More than 250,000 people have been displaced from their homes in Gaza. Hundreds of Palestinian noncombatants have been killed. Much of Gaza has lost access to water and electricity completely. This is a humanitarian catastrophe.

There is never an excuse for deliberate attacks on civilians in conflict. These are war crimes.This is true for both sides. Hamas's indiscriminate targeting of Israeli civilians is equally unacceptable. However, three Israeli civilians have been killed by Palestinian rockets, while an overwhelming majority of the 1,600 Palestinians killed have been civilians, including more than 330 children. The need for international judicial proceedings to investigate and end these violations of international law should be taken very seriously.

The U.N. Security Council should focus on what can be done to limit the potential use of force by both sides. It should vote for a resolution recognizing the inhumane conditions in Gaza and mandate an end to the siege. That resolution could also acknowledge the need for international monitors who can report on movements into and out of Gaza as well as cease-fire violations. It should then enshrine strict measures to prevent the smuggling of weapons into Gaza. Early discussions have already taken place. The Elders, an international group of elder statesmen of which we are a part, hope these discussions will continue and reach fruition.

There is never an excuse for deliberate attacks on civilians in conflict. These are war crimes.This is true for both sides. Hamas's indiscriminate targeting of Israeli civilians is equally unacceptable. However, three Israeli civilians have been killed by Palestinian rockets, while an overwhelming majority of the 1,600 Palestinians killed have been civilians, including more than 330 children. The need for international judicial proceedings to investigate and end these violations of international law should be taken very seriously.

The U.N. Security Council should focus on what can be done to limit the potential use of force by both sides. It should vote for a resolution recognizing the inhumane conditions in Gaza and mandate an end to the siege. That resolution could also acknowledge the need for international monitors who can report on movements into and out of Gaza as well as cease-fire violations. It should then enshrine strict measures to prevent the smuggling of weapons into Gaza. Early discussions have already taken place. The Elders, an international group of elder statesmen of which we are a part, hope these discussions will continue and reach fruition.

At the Palestinians' request, the Swiss government is considering convening an international conference of the signatory states of the Geneva Conventions, which enshrine the humanitarian laws of warfare. This could pressure Israel and Hamas into observing their duties under international law to protect civilian populations. We sincerely hope all states -- especially those in the West, with the greatest power -- attend and live up to their obligations to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention, which governs the treatment of populations in occupied territory.

Unity between Fatah and Hamas is currently stronger than it has been for many years. As Elders, we believe this is one of the most encouraging developments in recent years and welcome it warmly. This presents an opportunity for the Palestinian Authority to reassume control over Gaza -- an essential first step towards Israel and Egypt lifting the blockade.

The Palestinian Authority cannot manage the task of administering Gaza on its own. It will need the prompt return of the EU Border Assistance Mission, an international effort to help monitor border crossings that was launched in 2005 and suspended in 2007. EU High Representative Catherine Ashton has already offered to reinstate the program, covering not only Rafah but all of Gaza's crossings. Egypt and Israel would, in turn, cooperate with international monitors to be deployed in Gaza and along its borders, backed by a U.N. Security Council mandate to protect civilian populations. A valuable precedent for trust-building between Egypt and Israel is the international peacekeeping force operating in the Sinai, mandated by the peace treaty signed by the two countries in 1979.

The international community's initial goal should be the full restoration of the free movement of people and goods to and from Gaza through Israel, Egypt, and the sea. Concurrently, the United States and EU should recognize that Hamas is not just a military but also a political force. Hamas cannot be wished away, nor will it cooperate in its own demise. Only by recognizing its legitimacy as a political actor -- one that represents a substantial portion of the Palestinian people -- can the West begin to provide the right incentives for Hamas to lay down its weapons. Ever since the internationally monitored 2006 elections that brought Hamas to power in Palestine, the West's approach has manifestly contributed to the opposite result.

Ultimately, however, lasting peace depends on the creation of a Palestinian state next to Israel.

Leaders in Israel, Palestine, and the world's major powers should believe that policy changes are within reach that would move Israelis and Palestinians closer to a day when the skies over the Holy Land can forever fall silent."

I've not checked the thread for a while so just catching up.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation and is recognised as such by the EU (and others), aside from building a huge stockpile of missiles which it has been firing into Israel for the whole of 2014 its spent a huge amount of time and money building tunnels into Israel for the sole purpose of killing or kidnapping people. Hamas terrorists have been repeatedly found to have syringes and tranquilizers on them as well as being dressed in IDF uniforms.

The Wall Street Journal has a piece making exactly the points I have done. Whilst the world is "outraged" at Israels actions in Gaza it is merely "concerned" at far greater loos of life in Syria, Iraq and now more recently in ****stan where government forces have recently launched an offensive (1,500 dead in the past 6 weeks). Many more civilians and children are dying in those conflicts. The fact is the world is largely ignoring Muslim on Muslim conflicts as it focuses on the easier to pigeon hole conflict in Gaza, Big vs Small, Israeli vs Palastinain, Jew vs Muslim.

[url= http://online.wsj.com/articles/bret-stephens-palestine-and-double-standards-1407194971?mod=trending_now_8 ]WSJ link - Palestine and Double Standards[/url]

Senator John McCain posted his support to the WSJ piece yesterday [i]I totally agree - 170000 dead in Syria[/i]

The world has largely ignored 170,000 - one hundred and seventy thousand people who have died in the Syrian conflict. One hundred times that in Gaza and far more Palestinians have died there than in Gaza with Hamas having sided against the Syrian government. Perhaps its not surprising as Syria isn't crawling with journalists posting images. The Journalists have been invited into Gaza by Hamas to fight their propaganda war.

@gonzy - you do appreciate that Hamas are the ones not interested in a two state solution ?

Whatabout?

you do appreciate that Hamas are the ones not interested in a two state solution ?

why should they be interested in a 2 state solution when it involves Israel retaining all the Palestinian territory it has stolen.

if the 2 state solution involved Israel going back to the 1947 borders then i'm pretty sure Hamas would accept it

you do appreciate that Hamas are the ones not interested in a two state solution ?

I'll go back to the analogy of me booting you out of your house and moving in to it. Would you then accept a 'negotiated solution' that involved me still keeping your house, and you carrying on living in a tiny bit of wasteland at the bottom of the garden that I've forced you into, built a wall round so you can't leave, control the supply of water and power too, which I cut off whenever I fancy it, for a laugh, and periodically if I'm in a bad mood, I lob a few bricks over?

Would you accept that?

Its ridiculous, and typical of its arrogant sense of righteousness, that Israel expects any 'solution' would mean absolutely no concessions on its part whatsoever, even though it still sits on illegally occupied Palestinian land

FFS will you start a thread on syria* rather than trying to discuss that constantly rather than Israel - I shall reply to your points on the scottish independence by simply discussing the basque region or something else entirely unrelated and telling you you dont care 🙄

* it is still a civil war between a dictator and some islamic jihadists who we are not funding or arming or considering members of the international community or saying they have the right to defend themselves. The whatbouterry distraction is tedious and you ignore the multiple post where everyone agrees it is terrible. Please stop and discuss this issue. Again , as if it will matter, Yes syria is bad and terrible and has crimes against humanity as does ISIS none of which means we should ignore the actions of a so called "liberal western democracy" acting like a "light" version of the deplorable states mentioned nor be apologist for their behaviour.

+1 JY

Jesus not more whataboutery from jambalaya. FFS.

"Whilst the world is "outraged" at Israels actions in Gaza it is merely "concerned" at far greater loos of life in Syria, Iraq and now more recently in ****stan where government forces have recently launched an offensive (1,500 dead in the past 6 weeks). Many more civilians and children are dying in those conflicts"

you fail to mention that in each of those cases "the world" is taking an active role in those conflicts by propping up the governments of ****stan, Syria and Iraq. the suggestion that nothing is being done is nonsense. the idea that what is being done is ineffective at best and actually malevolent at worst is probably quite true.

..... settlers. they're a small number, they're loopy

IMO it's misleading to dismiss settlers as small in numbers. There are 400,000 settlers in the West Bank and the Israeli government expects the number to grow by 50% in the next 5 years to well over half a million.

That has to be seen in the context that there are approx 2 million Palestinians in the West Bank, so a very substantial figure.

[url= http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/16/us-palestinian-israel-idUSBREA4F0AD20140516 ]Israeli minister sees 50 percent more settlers in West Bank by 2019[/url]

They are mainly loopy though, and armed, and they terrorize the Palestinian population on a daily basis.

Israel has always, in direct violation of international law, used its civilians as instruments of conquest making them legitimate targets for the Palestinian resistance against Israeli occupation.

I am not aware of any other country anywhere in the world which has settlers in the 21st century, only Israel could get away with that - even if it is illegal.

And let no one doubt just how central it is to Israeli government policy to conquer, demoralize, and subjugate the Palestinian people, to encourage Zionist extremists to colonize occupied territories.

This article in the Wall Street Journal (owned by the very pro-Israeli Rupert Murdoch) dated June 5 shows how the Israeli government was intent on using the illegal expansion of settlements in occupied Palestine to punish Palestinians for having the temerity of showing unity - an intolerable situation for the Zionists.

[url= http://online.wsj.com/articles/israel-issues-tenders-for-1-500-new-housing-units-in-west-bank-east-jerusalem-1401991417 ]Israel Plans Expanded Settlement in Retaliation for Palestinian Government With Hamas[/url]

And from that article is the real reason why the Israelis went on a killing spree in Gaza :

[i]Israel is seeking to punish the Palestinians after Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority, swore in a new cabinet on Monday that is supported by Hamas, the Islamist movement that rules the Gaza Strip.

The Obama administration has continued to work with the new Palestinian government even though it hasn't extended it official recognition. Mr. Netanyahu said earlier this week he was "deeply troubled" by the continued ties.[/i]

It was to repeat the much used lie that they were being attacked and to force the US to support them while blaming everything on Hamas at a time when Hamas was making significant progress in working with Fatah and their American backers.

Israel wanted a bloodbath in Gaza to throw a spanner in the works. They do not want peace, they want more land, more power, and to subjugate the Palestinians even further.

@Jambalaya
you seem to keep banging on about Hamas being a terrorist organisation and that they are seen as such by the EU (and others)
what you fail to point out is that the oppression and ethnic cleansing by the Israeli government has been going on long before Hamas arrived on the scene.
and who created Hamas? the Israeli government did...in order to undermine and disrupt the authority of the PLO
now that Hamas doesnt serve a purpose other than to try to represent the people of Gaza who elected them in US/EU funded democratic elections...it does not fit the Israeli agenda so they are now labelled as a terrorist group.
sure, they are no saints as their history shows but in recent years the evidence seem to indicate that they have observed the agreed truces more than the Israeli government, they have been more willing to discuss terms for a ceasefire of the hostilities and to negotiate with the Israeli government,
the fact is the Israeli government does not want to negotiate with the Palestinians...full stop
you claim that the Hamas charter states that one of their main objectives is the destruction of the state of Israel...this may be true but what may also be true is that this charter was written many years ago and since then Hamas seems to be adopting a more diplomatic approach and hasnt amended the charter to reflect this.
however Israel hasnt really given Hamas to put down its arms has it? you back a person into a corner and hit them enough times they will eventually fight back...this is what the Israeli government has done over the last 60 years.
if Israel really wanted to open up a long lasting diplomatic dialogue it would have done so by now...it has been given many opportunities to do so... the creation of the Palestinian Authority was so that it would meet the Israeli demands for a unified Palestiniain government to bring to the negotiation table and yet again Israel has rejected this.
Israel does not want to negotiate...it just lies when it says the the rest of the world that it does and then pins the blame on the Palestinians by saying that they dont want to negotiate.
its obvious to see and there is plenty of proof to back this up that the vast majority of the Knesset do not want to negotiate and they are in favour of the complete elimination of Palestine and for the land and resources to come into Israel's possession.
these politicians have also been recorded on videos addressing the Israeli public on this and encouraging them to think and believe that this is the only policy that is acceptable to Israel