[Closed] Conservative Friends of Israel

@ jambalaya
why anyone would want to negotiate with a government that advocates and perpetrates war crimes such as the example below?

Former combat soldier and company sergeant of the Israeli army turned whistle-blower Eran Efrati, aged 28, was arrested by the Israeli authorities and questioned concerning his research regarding the use of illegal weapons in Gaza.

On Tuesday, July 29, Efrati announced on Facebook that he received information from sources within the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) revealing what he claims to be the real reason for the Shuja'iyya massacre which occurred nine days prior on July 20: namely that civilians were targeted and killed by Israeli soldiers as punishment for the death of soldiers in their units.

In recent weeks I was on the border of Gaza and getting reports from soldiers in the Gaza Strip who leak information out to me. I am in the process of publication of two big stories in major U.S. newspapers, but there are some things I can share with you right now: Soldiers in two different units inside Gaza leaked information about the murdering of Palestinians by sniper fire in Shuja'iyya neighborhood as punishment for the death of soldiers in their units. After the shooting on the Israeli armored personnel carriers, which killed seven soldiers of the Golani Brigade, the Israeli army carried out a massacre in Shuja'iyya neighborhood. A day after the massacre, many Palestinians came to search for their relatives and their families in the rubble. In one of the videos uploaded to YouTube, a young Palestinian man Salem Shammaly calls the names of his family and looking for them between the ruins when he is suddenly shot at in his chest and falls down. A few seconds after that, there are two additional shootings from snipers into his body, killing him instantly. Since the video was released, there was no official response from the IDF spokesperson. Today I can report that the official command that was handed down to the soldiers in Shujaiyya was to capture Palestinian homes as outposts. From these posts, the soldiers drew an imaginary red line, and amongst themselves decided to shoot to death anyone who crosses it. Anyone crossing the line was defined as a threat to their outposts, and was thus deemed a legitimate target. This was the official reasoning inside the units. I was told that the unofficial reason was to enable the soldiers to take out their frustrations and pain at losing their fellow soldiers (something that for years the IDF has not faced during its operations in Gaza and the West Bank), out on the Palestinian refugees in the neighborhood. Under the pretext of the so-called “security threat” soldiers were directed to carry out a pre-planned attack of revenge on Palestinian civilians. These stories join many other similar ones that Amira Hass and I investigated in Operation Cast Lead. The death toll that continues to rise is steadily reaching the numbers of the massacre of 2009.
More than 1,100 have been killed in Gaza, at least 80 percent of them civilians. Today it is cleared for publication that at least 4 soldiers were killed by a rocket in a gathering area outside of Gaza, and another soldier was killed in Gaza. They join 43 soldiers that have already been killed. We know that more acts of revenge will come soon and it is important that we not stay silent. This is the time to take to the streets and to social media. Demand from your representative wherever you are to stop supporting this massacre and to immediately boycott the state of Israel until the occupation ends, the blockade is lifted and Palestinians will be free. We all want to be in the right place at the right time when history knocks on our door, and history is knocking in Gaza right now. You need to decide on which side you want to go down in history.

just in case you want to see the full article and to be sure its not some anti-israeli propaganda...here is the link:

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/08/03/israeli-army-whistle-blower-leaks-account-of-revenge-attacks-against-civilians-by-israeli-troops-in-gazas-shujaiyya/

just so you know, i've created a discussion thread on the issue of ISIS.
if you have something to say on that issue then i suggest you go on that thread and make your opinions known
if you wish to discuss the Israel/Palestine situation then stay here

maybe that will put a stop to the needless whataboutery that's going on here

jambalaya you are right we should treat isis and the idf by the same measure. We should be banning all support for the IDF and roundly condemning them, we should make it a criminal offence to fund the IDF directly or indirectly, we should look into the practicalities of air strikes to curb and restrain the IDF's activities . We should refuse to recognise their state . Does that make it better for you?

There are 400,000 settlers in the West Bank and the Israeli government expects the number to grow by 50%

Just read this thread over lunch - some really informative stuff and great links (excluding the Chewkbollocks).

There are sufficient intelligent people operating within the Israeli Government, with a good grasp of history and conflict, to fully understand exactly what they doing and what the likely response will be. This IMO makes them the aggressor, wholly accountable and responsible for the situation and the ones who should be internationally sanctioned for their actions.

I agree with Irish Senator David Norris - where are orators and conviction politicians like this when they are needed? He makes some brilliant points.

rogerthecat - Member

Just read this thread over lunch - some really informative stuff and great links (excluding the Chewkbollocks).

😆 Ya, I may be bollocking but then you lots are going in circle again and again ... as if there are new solutions. There are none.

🙄

and who created Hamas? the Israeli government did...in order to undermine and disrupt the authority of the PLO

chewk everyone is saying you are bringing nothing to the table Please learn from this and actually say something worth saying or shh and let the grown ups discuss.

Again do not mistake this statement as an attempt to get a reply from you and/or interest in your opinion.

^^^ +

Posted in another thread, but relevant here too:

[img] [/img]

Wonder how many jollies the Bullingdon Boys have had with the IDF...

I dunno, but I'm definitely joining the IDF.

Junkyard - lazarus

chewk everyone is saying you are bringing nothing to the table Please learn from this and actually say something worth saying or shh and let the grown ups discuss.

😯 Crikey, you have just made me read through all the comments again to see if you have something really worth taking note. What a disappointment as I have just wasted my time searching.

"Grown ups" ... I like that. 😆

BTW do you have something worth saying because I can't find any?

Again do not mistake this statement as an attempt to get a reply from you and/or interest in your opinion.

Do I have to have a statement for a statement?

Just leave this here..

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/08/05/the-japanese-have-some-questions-for-palestine-supporters-and-oh-are-they-awesome/

azku - Member

Just leave this here..
> http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/08/05/the-japanese-have-some-questions-for-palestine-supporters-and-oh-are-they-awesome/

Excellent link. 😀

Plagiarised from the author ...

"If you are so sure that ” Palestine , the country, goes back through most of recorded history,” I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine :

1. When was it founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. What constituted the basis of its economy?
6. What was its form of government?
7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?
8. Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
9. What was the language of the country of Palestine ?
10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine ?
11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.
12. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

13. You are lamenting the “low sinking” of a “once proud” nation. Please tell me, when exactly was that “nation” proud and what was it so proud of?"

All hail the author!
All hail the author!

😆

Really?

So that's an excuse for barbaric overreaction by the IDF?

[b]azku[/b] interestingly limited non bike topics you have posted on

[b]chewkh[/b] do you really get a kick out of people thinking you are a moronic barely literate troll?

Stoatsbrother - Member

Really?

So that's an excuse for barbaric overreaction by the IDF??

Shhh ... don't change the subject.

Please let grown ups answer those 13 questions first as I want to learn. I am a boy you know. 😆 🙄

azku interestingly limited non bike topics you have posted on

chewkh do you really get a kick out of people thinking you are a moronic barely literate troll?

Hello ... the [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/forum/bike-chat ]Bike Forum[/url] is on the other tab ... this is a [b]Chat Forum [/b]... 🙄

Cummon! Cummon! How can you call me moronic or troll? Cummon! I mean just because someone has different opinions s/he becomes a troll? 😯

azku - Member

Just leave this here..

What a crap link azku, they apparently think that countries such as Uzbekistan and ****stan are Arab countries, but not Tunisia and Algeria, geography obviously isn't their strong point ! 😀

[img] [/img]

I didn't bother scrolling beyond that.

Think most people will have already made up their own minds on that one mate. Nothing to do with your opinions. Everything to do with your style. Hope puberty isn't too traumatic for you.

Stoatsbrother - Member

Think most people will have already made up their own minds on that one mate. Nothing to do with your opinions. Everything to do with your style. Hope puberty isn't too traumatic for you.

Are you attempting to avoid answering the 13 questions? hhmmm ...

Cummon! Cummon! I want to learn.

😆

edit:

Hope puberty isn't too traumatic for you.

Not for me as I was near death at age 8 or 9 (due to massive internal bleeding) then but more for my parents (especially my mum who had to watch me in a very poor state of health to the point of dying). To be frank I was unconscious in a sleep like stage most of the time. I don't wish it on you but if you do you will understand the feeling of your love ones worrying over you. So nope. Nothing traumatic.

I was unconscious in a sleep like stage most of the time

I hope you pull through soon

Junkyard - lazarus

I was unconscious in a sleep like stage most of the time

I hope you pull through soon

I am probably a zombie maggot.

edit: I wish I didn't (pull through) to be honest but then it would be unjust for my mum as she is the one that nursed me back.

Edit - meh.

CaptainFlashheart - Member

Low and uncalled for, Junky.

No problem CaptainFlashheart as I don't take offense.

Not surprisingly, this thread appears to have descended to the usual bighittazcirclejerk, though.

Are you surprised? I mean those 13 questions need answers and contemplation but most just avoid them.

🙂

Hmm not a terribly clever "questionnaire". You could come up with something equally meaningless by substituting Israel for Palestine and Ben-Gurion for Arafat.

Stoats.. Problem? I could be Netanyahu himself for all it matters.
Ernie.. It could have listed many other countries too.. Does it matter?

Also personal attacks kind of derail credibility.

Slowold.. Might have some answers to the questions then?

But those 13 questions are irrelevant in the context of recent Israeli actions.

Let's say that someone in the IDF did end up on trial for committing a war crime such as deliberately bombing civilians. His defence would rest on proving he believed that he was attacking combatants and that lives were at risk if he didn't attack. Not if the Palestinians had any real historical claim to be treated as a nation.

slowoldman - Member

Hmm not a terribly clever "questionnaire". You could come up with something equally meaningless by substituting Israel for Palestine and Ben-Gurion for Arafat.

But the fact is someone got to answer those questions otherwise nobody knows what they are debating anymore.

🙂

edit: BigEaredBiker - you need to answer those 13 questions first.

Bigear.. To make any sense of the situation you have to look at history.

seems like some people in america might start becoming more aware of their hypocrisy

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/shocking-reality-ground.html

The entire link is one big straw man. "If you are so sure that ” Palestine , the country, goes back through most of recorded history,". It's not in the slightest bit important whether this is true or not.

If someone's dedicating so much effort (in the highly impartial "Jews News") into knocking down an imaginary argument, it proves how incapable they are of dealing with the reality.

Try asking your 13 silly questions about Israel you end up with a small fictional country less than 100 years old,led by terrorists founded on a fairy story with no economy other than a testing bed for superpower weapons no capital and no indigenous people.

Taking the long view those questions make the USA pop and on a longer view so does Britain.

Please explain why you want me to answer the 13 questions;

Are you looking to understand why its such a mess there and who has legitimate claim to the physical land? Or are you trying to justify actions taken by the IDF which are at best disproportionate and at worst war crimes?

The state of Israel has existed for over 60 years and is internationally recognised, it doesn't really matter who was there before. There were 10 million ethnic German refugees that fled to East and West Germany after WW2, no one (their descendants included) demands they should be handed back their ancestral homes in the Czech Republic or Poland.

The fact is a superior military force belonging to a democracy is acting in an overly aggressive manner and possibly committing war crimes; history has shown us that the way forward involves compromise and a willingness to talk to those who would sooner you are dead. Arguing that the Arab nations poisoned the well (so to speak) forcing Israel to deal with a belligerent refugee population misses the point. Egypt didn't want 700,000 refugees in 1948 and they certainly don't want the 1.8 million that has grown into regardless of if they are the same ethnicity or not!

Understanding the history is great and useful but it won't solve this problem as even Judge Judy couldn't tell 1.8 million people that their ancestors lost a war 60 years ago so they need to forget about it - they still need somewhere to live and a viable economy to sustain them.

Crikey ... could you lot answer those 13 questions first please.

Crikey ... could you lot answer those 13 questions first please.

Ok, so let's go with what those questions are driving at and say that the Palestinians have no historical legitimacy to be a nation state. Now what? When does lasting a peace break out?

Crankboy.. No words can counter such ignorance..

azku - Member

Ernie.. It could have listed many other countries too.. Does it matter?

I think falsely suggesting that ****stan is an Arab country probably does matter. Specially if you want people to take you seriously.

Although it didn't matter to me and I found it highly amusing 🙂

Let's have another look

[img] [/img]

*chuckles*

Azku go on why am I wrong ?

I think this is definately worth a read before any decision is made as to who is in the wrong.

[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/picking-a-side-in-israel-palestine_b_5602701.html ]Picking a side in the israel palestine conflict[/url]

That map is, I dunno, I want to laugh, but it's a serious situation, and yet, oh **** it, that map... 😆

Let's say that someone in the IDF did end up on trial for committing a war crime such as deliberately bombing civilians. His defence would rest on proving he believed that he was attacking combatants and that lives were at risk if he didn't attack. Not if the Palestinians had any real historical claim to be treated as a nation.

Well, I just saw an interview with a Israeli soldier on TV, and he said he may have killed civilians, but he was following orders. You couldn't make it up.

Azku go on why am I wrong ?

I think the get out clause was established here with "[i]No words[/i] can counter such ignorance.."

Azku can't explain why you are wrong because of an apparent lack of words.

Cummon! Cummon! You guys are *slippery as eels trying to get you to answer those 13 questions.

(note: *no eels are harmed nor degraded as I am merely using this as a form of expression - a bit like trying to nail jelly (not the jellyfish) to the wall innit.)

I've answered the 13 questions- the answer to every one is "it's irrelevant, and by asking ridiculous irrelevant questions you prove you can't deal with the real issues"

well it really isnt the done thing to feed a troll, especially when he seems to be taking some sort of viscous pleasure in wishing away the human rights of a couple of milion people

but here goes even though these questions make virtually no sense , (answers mostly from wikipedia....)

[i]1. When was it founded and by whom? [/i] no idea who founded lost in teh past its such an ancient part of human history but

5th century BC Ancient Greece.[8] Herodotus wrote of a 'district of Syria, called Palaistinê in

[i]2. What were its borders? [/i] back then id ask ancient syrians mandatory palestines was defined post world war...
in 1920 according to us brits it was called palestine and given as a home to the jews...
[img] [/img]

[i]3. What was its capital?[/i]
tarditionally jerusalem, since israel has stolen that international law would say the west bank now

[i]4. What were its major cities?[/i]
see above though im not sure thats a prerequisite for being a country

[i]5. What constituted the basis of its economy?[/i]
same as the rest of the region probably

[i]6. What was its form of government?[/i]
when? originally when it was a district of syria, no idea either, but wow these questions are getting fatuous!

[i]7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?[/i]
nope, your point?

[i]8. Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?[/i]
no, show me 1 country in the history of the world ever whose borders are not dynamic and disputed by someone somewhere, - this question is really quite innocent, its really quite cute how silly the author is

[i]9. What was the language of the country of Palestine ?[/i]
id guess arabic

[i]10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine ?[/i] in the last few hundred years id say islam, once again religions come and go

[i]11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.[/i]
bit random but throws up some interesting stuff palestine was once part of the Achaemenid Empire and coins from there are one of the oldest ever discovered

[i]12. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?[/i] just the randon ebb and flow of history, although as 70% of the UN have recognised it as a country the author is obviously a bit confused

[i]13. You are lamenting the “low sinking” of a “once proud” nation. Please tell me, when exactly was that “nation” proud and what was it so proud of?"[/i]
Id say that people have lived in 'palestine' for at least 7000 years and having been part of some of the greatest empires known to man and ultimately the fertile crescent the birthplace of modern humanity as we left africa, and n modern times they are surviving apartheid and ethnic cleansing by a powerful neighbour, plenty of reasons for pride

[i]all hail the author![/i]
anyone hailing the author would have to be some sort of simplistic idiot either pushing an unpleasant agenda or just really really stupid or perhaps both......