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Mods/tech - can you please sort the problem which is preventing the Loughbirough Uni link from opening; see timba's post ^^^ which refers to my post of late yesterday.
Ta.
If you follow the Loogabarooga link and get to their “page not found”, just click on “news and events” and search for “aerated”. It will be the first article. Spoiler - it won’t tell you much more than others you have read already.
My daughter's secondary school has/had this problem - was highlighted by a structural engineer when she was their as being an urgent closure of the building (main teaching block). Her school had been on the waiting list for replacement of the building/s for around 10-15 yrs.
The building has now been demolished (this summer) and is being replaced, luckily for my daughter all the building work started after her GCSEs.....
I wonder who scrapped the school building/refurbishment programme back in 2010?
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/jul/05/school-building-programme-budget-cuts
midlife - not used since mid 90's, apparently.
Bridget Phillipson, Lab shadow education secretary, has asked c150 parliamentary questions about use of and concerns about RAAC in past 2 years - according to one of her colleagues.
Where's little rish! with one of his platitudes to provide some reassurance?
I thought nick gibb was an embarassment - more than usual - on R4 this morning; evasive, repetitive and continually attempting but failing to talk over Nick Robinson and drown out his questions.
One of his pointless statements was that '...every affected school will get a case worker'.
How 'kin useless - every affected school needs immediate access to a suitably qualified and experienced surveyor. I doubt many LAs have the right skills set in house.
How robust and thorough is the current building management process in state schools?
The timing of the announcement, and leaving local government and schools to deal with it in just a few days… well…
Std Tory approach isn't it, cause chaos and make life difficult for people then divert blame, line the pockets of supporters and themselves while the people are distracted or those who actually GAS are trying to do the right thing.
Absolutely – and when it got used the brief was probably 25 year life for minimum upfront cost
Also not really worth celebrating Victorian construction – there’s a huge element of survivor bias this. All the rotten stuff fell down and we’re left with the good stuff.
I think in a sense between those two eras theres a shift in philosophy as well as technology in terms of building. It's amazing how many victorian buildings have the name of the occupying company or organisation that built them carved into the fabric of the building. You even see plenty of houses with the initials of the first occupants on the lintels There was a sense at the time that you built both businesses and buildings for future generations ( ..... & Sons). But building technology of the time was also maintainable - needed to be maintained, often quite a lot, but was maintainable.
We seemed to enter an era where we begrudged maintenance - and I don't know if the idea of building technologies with finite serviceable lifespans comes from the loss of that optimism and sense of legacy that preceded it of from a simple hatred of maintenance. Maybe people felt like they'd been saddled with the duty of maintenance imposed by our optimistic forefathers A decent victorian building can last for ever, in the same way as Trigger's broom does - but it will always need fixing.
These clients want and specify low and no maintenance solutions - but they are also for most part products and materials that are unrepairable and unrefinishable. Clients seem to place more importance on their short term convenience than long term prospects.
'25 years' seems to be the sweet spot because everyone involved in the decision will be retired by then, in fact the senior decision makers will probably feel quite confident they'll be dead by then.
Barratt couldn't sell houses on the understanding that they'd need demotion in 25 years time on that basis - becuase.... '& Sons' - people see their own property as part of their legacy. But at work and in government its an idea we've become very comfortable with.
I work in offsite/modular construction & the number of enquiries we've had over the last few months has been mind blowing. Just yesterday, an LA contacted us asking for 30 classrooms to be up & running in 6 weeks. Not really what we're set up for so it won't really be work that we get involved with in the short term as we're already busy with other stuff.
Some of the big players in our industry with large hire fleets will be making a tidy penny by being there to 'support' the government, a bit like Sunbelt did during Covid.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Disaster-Capitalism-Making-Killing-Catastrophe/dp/1784781150
I'm sure portakabin-hirers who are coincidentally Conservative Party donors will be enjoying life right now.
Many one here will enjoy blaming the current gov for this while ignoring the facts that this is an inherited problem with many of these buildings being built under labour governments.
with many of these buildings being built under labour governments.
Well given the technology was in use for decades its statistically quite probable that a quantity would have been built during any goverment's term.
It's not a mistake to build with finite lifespan materials if everyone involved in the descision agrees to it. But it is a mistake not to acknowledge that the end of those lifespans are approaching and its time to do something about it. 100 schools is a lot when you wait til roofs start caving in a to address the problem - and address it by having no apparent plan - but its 0.5% of the country's 20,000 school buildings across over 150 education authorities that are at risk less than one school per district - it doesnt, in the grand scheme of things, need to be a big deal. A government of any stripe that hadn't spend the last five years slipping around its own shit might have managed to rise to the fairly modest task. Labour built over 100 new secondary schools between 2009-2012 without there being any kind of emergency to address. Maybe if they hadn't there'd be more schools on that list today. Johnson promised to build 'a dozen' new schools in 2019 .... and then quietly didn't build any of them.
Many one here will enjoy blaming the current gov for this while ignoring the facts that this is an inherited problem with many of these buildings being built under labour governments.
Did you miss this link above?
13 years ago:
Michael Gove today cancelled Labour's school building programme, suspending projects for 715 new schools as part of the coalition's latest tranche of spending cuts
good ol' tories sticking by their "we know the cost of everything but the value of nothing" mantra to the last.
hey regularly tested the concrete mixes, apparently the concrete increases in strength over some year then at 20yrs
Friend of mine worked in the labs for a concrete producer. He had to go on site when deliveries were made to take samples when loads were poured from the lorry. These were stored for testing/ if there were potential claims.
The mix was made to specific standards depending on the purpose so the samples (if made correctly) will match that. However, in 99 cases out of 100, the guys on site would add water once the mix was poured to make it easier to move & smooth but weakening the mix. A bunch of navvies weren’t going to listen to a spotty lab tech so he gave up arguing & eventually left the company.
Anyone know the actual design life of RAAC?
Building mag say 30 years but I've also seen references to 40 and 50 years.
Assuming 40 years, every panel installed before 1980 would now be beyond it's design life.
That doesn't mean the panels will fail but what %age have been inspected with the findings documented, replacement costs calculated and follow-up inspections carried out?
Could be a busy - and lucrative - time for structural engineers and chartered (proper) surveyors.
The list is continuing to grow as some schools haven’t been tested yet.
Quote for renting Portacabins until next September for a small secondary with no sixth form is currently £1million. And they won’t have any heating in or teaching aids. The DfE are saying they won’t fund this either.
Who would have thought that long term failure to invest or maintain infrastructure would be a ticking time bomb?
The voting public don't like tax bills though so it's hardly a supprising strategy from both Labour and the conservative parties.
@frankconway AIUI it’s OK as long as it’s left in the preformed concrete ‘planks’ it was made in.
When you eg. cut it to length, drill holes in it or leave it somewhere it’s persistently wet, that’s when the fun starts.
Also helps if you don’t put a massive air conditioning unit on the top of a RAAC ceiling as then you end up with an acroprop in the middle of your workspace holding the ceiling it’s sat on up.
There’s some HMG target to have all NHS RAAC replaced by 2030. Which given that we’re still using some Victorian workhouse buildings seems a tad optimistic.
...Once again the governments policy seems to have been ‘let’s cross our fingers, hope for the best and maybe if we’re lucky no TORY MP or party donors children will die’
Fixed that for ya.
frankconway
Full MemberIt was a cheap 1950s/60s concrete product.
Yah, but what I mean is it wasn't always chosen just for cheapness. Or it was, but with good reasoning, a lot of stuff was designed to go up faster and be cheaper but be replaced and to be either cost-effective that way over their lifespan, or to offer other shirter tern advantages that made it worth taking the later hit, like being able to build X hospitals in Y years instead of X/2 hospitals in 2Y years. Sometimes it really does make sense to do it fast and cheap and badly, you just need to have plans in place for the aftereffects, to record it properly and plan forwards. Which really has happened in some cases, and that just highlights how wrong it's been done elsewhere.
In the case of my brother's building the architect was using it basically as a super-material to make the shapes in his head that he couldn't do with other materials. It wasn't chosen just to be cheap, they've still got some of the paperwork and it was chosen because it was cool essentially, and could deliver stuff that other bids weren't offering, with longer term problems noted and almost understood. Unfortunately while it was supposed to be extendable/rebuildable it's turned out not to be in practice. Whether through a lack of understanding of how it'd age, or overoptimism, or just a failure of design I don't know. It's just such a bad sign that it stands out from others because it actually had some forward planning and awareness- it's noteworthy because it hasn't worked out, not because it wasn't planned for.
Sort of the equivalent of hi-rises etc, for all that a lot were just built to be cheap and crap, there were always those people who really believed in the dream. Or visionary brutalist architecture vs "concrete boxes are cheap and easy". Or the way prefab buildings are seen so negatively here because of the historic use rather than the actual potential. In a bunch of these cases teh material isn't really the problem, it's the inability to plan over decades.
OR they’ve had grenfell type warnings, ignored them and then some head teachers have come back and said “eh the roof appears to be in the gymn hall”.
So its seems my wild speculation was about right. Politicians unable to imagine risk until they've seen a failure for themselves! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-66461879?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=64f1ce30b994ec6acab229fc%26RAAC%20failures%20over%20the%20summer%20urged%20ministers%20to%20act%262023-09-01T11%3A50%3A58.480Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:1d42c11b-d214-4717-bb59-9a832b3a3364&pinned_post_asset_id=64f1ce30b994ec6acab229fc&pinned_post_type=share
@ratherbeintobago - thanks for that.
My undestanding is that RAAC is both permeable and porous so it's weather/moisture resistance is dependant on it's coating and that surface treatment remaining intact.
@northwind - point taken; what's been lacking, IMO, has been and still is a robust inspection/maintenance regime and a fully costed replacement programme.
As an aside, my grandson starts school next week - in a solid, victorian building.
Dodgy reinforced concrete from the 1960's and 1970's? Pfffft.
Wait until you see how the PFI 'they only need to last 25 years of contract' schools and hospitals look when they are 26 or more years in and being sold back to the taxpayer to pick up any liabilities....
Hasn’t that already happened with some school walls that fell down? ISTR that was in Scotland.
Yes it has - and I've been involved in some work around outdoor areas that flood and similar. There's another scandal coming - not least because as the building near the end of thier design life they are too be handed back or sold(!) to the council's that have leased them for 25 years.
Most days I cycle past the multi millionaire house who owns a few of the PFI schools in Scotland, he often waves from his Bentayga or DB12...
@frankconway Bearing in mind I am a clinician rather than anything else, the estates guys in the meetings were pretty clear that RAAC planks that hadn't been cut to length or drilled were probably fine, which would fit with what you said about the coating being intact. The issue is that a lot of it isn't, often because it's got e.g. suspended ceiling bolts drilled into it.
Anyone got any insight into what kids playing football against RAAC panels does to them? Asking for a friend...
In a previous life I worked for one of Europe's largest suppliers of building materials, including RAAC blocks.
https://tarmac.com/products/blocks/durox-supabloc/
And
https://www.xella.co.uk/en_GB/Ytong-modular-panel-system
As you can see by the 2nd link, these aren't just block, they're entire buildings.
But, one issue that was always mentioned in regard to the UK was the crap material handling on site - which is why concrete prefab houses had such a bad press. Basically they got damaged onsite and/or during construction - less automation and rare for cranes to be used compared to the rest of Europe. I wonder if it's the same with these 'roofs', plus poor maintenance schedules (for the last 13 years especially)?
Interesting that there were failures of RAAC back as far as the 1980s where units made in the 1960s had failed......
Standing Comittee on Structural Safety report here:
wonder if this would have been an issue if it was mandatory for all mps to send their children to state schools ?
Went for a ride yesterday with a civil engineer friend who's been involved in surveying this for years.
His opinion was that it's that ever-present issue in our infrastructure that the design lives have been exceeded massively and people only pay attention when it fails. Many of these buildings were built in the 1970/1980's with a contracted 20-30 year design life, and when that came up there wasn't the money to replace it so it was concessed for decade(s) until a number of recent failures. Not an issue with the material or the original designers really, it's been pushed way past its life. At the time it was cheap, easy to work with, and lightweight. The latter is apparently an issue in replacement work as most modern solutions are heavier and require replacement of foundations etc to support.
So yeah, despite Jeremy Hunt's claims to throw money at the problem now, it's purely a reactionary measure for an issue that's been known about for years.
Is it clear that the funding for repair/replacement is 'net new money' or a full/partial reallocation from existing funding commitments?
I suspect the latter, unfortunately.
Yes, argue all you like on funding vs austerity, and whether different decisions should have been made in the past but look at the facts and play the ball, not the man.
It's the same bloody men that cut funding and gave us austerity! Nothing's changed or been fixed.
I agree, now more facts have come to light. My point then, based on the R4 Interview, was that they 'thought' undamaged RAAC panels were OK and then 'found out over the summer' that wasn't the case and so had taken action. On that basis the right thing to do.
Now appears that they knew there was a problem already, and had been ignoring. The ballgame changed with that.
On the plus side, Mike Graham's got an allotment full of replacement.
so it seems "spend whatever it takes" means what ever you have left in your budget :/
Scottish Govt says there's no immediate cause for concern. I'm assuming its the same stuff so why does it seem to be so much more of an issue south of the border?
Apologies if that’s been covered upthread.
why does it seem to be so much more of an issue south of the border?
Because tbe kids of Tory voters in the shires are more expensive in votes lost?
I'm pretty sure this hit the news a few years ago, maybe it was in Hospitals?
So for this to just come out now, smacks of either incompetence or a slow news day, surely?
Scottish Govt says there’s no immediate cause for concern. I’m assuming its the same stuff so why does it seem to be so much more of an issue south of the border?
Maybe their government has so much of its attention on the Ferry fiasco that they can’t spare any for this issue…
The Johnathon Slater interview on the Radio4 Today Programme this morning is essential listening.
so rishi chopped the budget for fixing schools from 100 per year to 50 when the civil service were asking for 200, knowing that it needed approx 400 per year to solve the problem...
cluster.
I still haven't seen the rationale for having known about it for decades why it was announced as an unplanned panic the week before all the kids go back? even at the start of the holidays would have given ample time to at least plan the communications and make it look less like headless chickens are in charge
A good summary.
Gillian Keegan now being interviewed. Her attempts to obfuscate making it very clear that is exactly how it is.
so it seems “spend whatever it takes” means what ever you have left in your budget :/
They've got to be absolutely taken to the cleaners on that. They knew full well the papers would run with the first part and they could then sneak out the second bit. Do they expect the job of 'rebuild the school' to just be a line between 'photocopier paper' and 'loo roll' on the To-do list? The money from where? Fit the work into the half term break?
They know full well that it'll be a few years, maybe a decade or more before any meaningful progress is made in this and I can guarantee that they will use it to beat up Labour, whether they're in power or not.
There are kids who will have had their whole secondary education severely disrupted now with COVID shutdowns and now the schools being uninhabitable. A generation potentially lost due to Tory incompetence.
So yeah, despite Jeremy Hunt’s claims to throw money at the problem now, it’s purely a reactionary measure for an issue that’s been known about for years.
He's going to spend all that's necessary to get it out of the news cycle.
So yeah, despite Jeremy Hunt’s claims to throw money at the problem now, it’s purely a reactionary measure for an issue that’s been known about for years.
IME it's now the standard UK approach to what feels everything, whether it's Govt or work - for example, our place is continually cutting back on 'maintenance' and then chucks money at whatever FU turns up also wasting vast amounts of SME/Senior Management time (which I think it considers is 'free', as these folk are 'salary'...).