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We quoted for a piece of work design/web development (£1200) and part way through the project the client basically just stopped responding to emails/calls etc so eventually we invoiced for the work we had done up to that point (£750). When it went unpaid we chased on it and the client first asked if we could cancel the invoice as there might be a bigger piece of work in the future then, when we said no, went on to say they didn't think they had got value for money and asked us to relook at the invoice. We did and decided it was a very fair reflection of what was done (I believe they simply decided they didn't want that project doing after all and are trying to wriggle out of paying).
So - we also host this client's website (which they have paid for - £300) so would we be within our rights to take the site down as they owe us another debt that they won't pay? Or, as they have paid for that 'service' would we be otentially getting ourselves in to trouble if they accuse us of causing business interruption?
The thing is, (stupidly) we didn't get signed contracts for the project as they were an existing client and we'd never had problems with them before regarding payments, although we do have a few emails relating to the work we were doing (such as getting an approval on some sketches/wireframes we had done).
Any input much appreciated, thank you.
Take down the site and change the password. Quickest way to open the dialogue.
The thing is, (stupidly) we didn't get signed contracts for the project a
This could cause some problems.
take down the site and replace it with the unpaid invoice?
Or, as they have paid for that 'service' would we be otentially getting ourselves in to trouble if they accuse us of causing business interruption?
^That
You can't take down a service they have paid for.
No but it can go down....
You have to first decide whether they are a client you wish to retain, then go from there.
Depends? Do you envisage potentially doing any more work with them?
to be honest, this...
client basically just stopped responding to emails/calls etc so eventually we invoiced for the work we had done up to that point (£750). When it went unpaid we chased on it and the client first asked if we could cancel the invoice as there might be a bigger piece of work in the future then, when we said no, went on to say they didn't think they had got value for money and asked us to relook at the invoice.
basically sounds like they're a bunch of chancers, who probably commissioned something , then changed their mind, and now don't want to pay for the work already done. Happens all the time unfortunately.
In which case: **** 'em
Do whatever you need to do...
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Email requests and approvals count as a contract to undertake works.
Unless they have replied in there refusing acceptance, etc just do a letter before action and then MCoL
As hammy says.
You can't remove a service they've paid for. If you have copies of emails agreeing to the work in dispute, and if they include a price, that is enough to form a contract. If they are no longer responding to your email I would send a letter by recorded delivery requesting payment by a date (say 7 days hence). If that fails, then either engage a solicitor or go straight to small claims. At the end of the day this is 'just business' and you should treat it accordingly.
Kidnap their dog/cat/kids.
This could escalate quite quickly, mind you.
Change the password on the website and tell them that until the invoice has been paid or they start proper dialogue with you that there will be no access and you will be performing no security updates or monitoring. I guess this will only work if they have a website that they update or use regularly. If your not bothered about keeping them as a customer, as someone who runs their own business I would say don't, then just take the website down and see what happens. Tell a white lie and say it seem to have gone down.
yup you may well breach contract by taking the site down but they've been dishonourable by not paying the bill. I'm sure that since they asked you to do some work and agreed to the cost and all that can be evidenced by email this forms some sort of contract, which they've breached. That website's fair game as far as I can see. IANAL.
You can't remove a service they've paid for.
Why?
You don't need signed contracts for 3k worth of work. An email approving the work at that cost is sufficient. You can very easily take down their site, what are they going to do about it? Call the police? In a court of law , not that it would come to that, you have a very strong argument.
That aside, I'd suggest going to see them and explaining how you feel and try and agree some amount of money. face to face always works much better in these matters.
on the hosting thing, could you send them a letter saying that the costs of hosting will be rising by, say, £750? And if they don't cough up then you'll be taking the site down? 😉
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/contractor-not-completed-work-invoice-payment-question ]Your client isn't a kitchen company is it?[/url] 😉
LOL no, a very different client (ironically they are basically a debt collection agency).
And no, we really don't care for working with them any more. If we don't get paid for this work we will not be renewing their hosting when it is due next summer (and won't tell them, we will just take the site down the day the hosting is due, then take a bit of time getting the files to them so they can sort their own hosting elsewhere).
You don't happen to have access to their domain admin do you (as well as hosting the site?). Broken email would be a lot more of a pain to most companies than a broken website.
Web hosting can be awfully unreliable even if you're continuing to offer the service.
Send them a small claims. Make it in the name of one of the directors rather than the company so that it's their personal credit record that gets screwed.
(ironically they are basically a debt collection agency)
Enquire about engaging their services (anonymously), string them along for a bit before the big reveal?
take down the site and replace it with the unpaid invoice?
(ironically they are basically a debt collection agency)
hahahahahahahahahahaha
see if you can get a face to face meeting with a director/owner, show them how much work you did and why you think it's worth £750. No luck here then small claims court.
I'm in the same industry and I'd be making sure a glitch happened with their site. They'll ring to see what the problem is and let them know that you'll look into it when you have some free time, making sure they know you're extremely busy and it could be some time. Don't mention the invoice, they'll figure it out soon enough.
Write it down as a loss and never think of it again - really this thing is very common in our industry.
"Look again at the invoice", halve it - they'll agree. Minimum angst, maximum money.
Small claims court?
We had a non-paying customer earlier in year. Settled very quickly through small claims court. All online.
keep hosting them. Why wouldn't you - it's money at minimum work and they are unlikely to move the site.
For the 750 I would go down g5604's line - half it and see if they pay. You don't need to do design work for them again and any money is better than none. The time chasing the small claims would eat that up if you are at all busy
^^^^ that is sound commercial advice regarding the time MCOL can involve although the principal can be worth the hassle. I'd seek a f2f as it's more likely to result in an agreeable outcome and you may continue to receive the web hosting income (payable in advance of course).
Inform them you are charging interest on outstanding amount and you will charge them time spent on chasing invoice.
https://www.gov.uk/late-commercial-payments-interest-debt-recovery/charging-interest-commercial-debt
Is this the first time this has happened to you? You can probably count yourself lucky!
Be pragmatic. The client seems to think the bill is too high. Discuss it with them and knock 10% off (No need to go to 50%; [i]something[/i] is usually enough!) if paid within a week. Then move on. It's not a lot of money in the scheme of things and not worthy of losing any sleep over.
Think about future dealings with them at your leisure.
Had this when I was freelance but it was a new customer so I hadn't been paid for any hosting, website creation or crucially the email and domain. Once I took his email down it didn't take long for him to phone me, despite his mobile being lost!
I stood my ground and eventually he coughed up but paid by cheque, once it had cleared I put his site and email live again. I then transferred the domain registration and email etc to him, as that was what we had agreed.
Surprisingly I did work for him for another couple of years and when he wound his business up he paid me just before he closed down.
I don't think you can take his site down but I do think you could either settle for 50% or go to the small claims court.
Maybe this is naive, but don't you have his site prior to the changes backed up? Return the site to what it was before you made those changes.
His site is still running minus what he doesn't want to pay for. Don't make any further updates and let the contract lapse when it ends.
I personally only give one chance in business. Difficulty in getting payment is stressful and time consuming. If it's happened once, it won't happen again as far as I'm concerned.
You've got enough to worry about without that in the back of your mind in future dealings.
Re-present them with the invoice, with a footnote - "This is the bill for work done. Please pay what you think it is worth, and we will then decide if we want to keep you as a client."
They'll probably walk, but you've spelled out the consequences of doing so, and you can then pull the site. Probably.
Engaging a debt collection agency to retrieve money from a debt collection agency would surely be a high point in your career. Seems too good an opportunity to miss.
Maybe this is naive, but don't you have his site prior to the changes backed up?
We had only got to the creative part (ie, showing them what the homepage would look like with their requested changes) we hadn't actually started development.
LBA and MCoL notification.
Website and email on hold regardless of if they've already paid as you can legitimately argue that they have reneged on any terms they could be expected to hold you too.
Can you expand a bit pls Hammy???
Letter before action. And then notification of Money Claim Online.
If payment is not forthcoming then you can legitimately argue in court that the revocation of all services including those already paid for was to protect yourself/business from incurring further costs/debt.
Ensure that you set out clearly in the LBA that revocation of ALL services will be undertaken should full payment not be received within 7/14 days, etc.
If it "really is common in this industry", that's a reason to do something, rather than a reason to leave it.
It's not just the effort for this £750, it's research and prep for whenever you get stiffed in the future. get a folder of letters, links, previous experience so it's quick and easy. You've got it ready to go do it every time someone tries it on, assuming you won't be bothered to chase.
And if more people did that, it wouldn't be so common.
to the op, i run my own one man design business and this stuff happens from time to time. id honestly say that for the amounts you are talking about its not worth doing much more than you have. and in future, get clients to pay 50% upfront and the remainder completion for the project. Minimise your risk – it’s been a learning experience for me.
i remain staggered how bad clients in general are at paying up (and on time) despite always needs stuff in a hurry... one client was 6 months late in paying for a massive project last year. And I had very little in the way of anything to ‘threaten then with’, in the end i played the common decency card and they paid up and Ill never go near them again. it took ages to stabilise things after that.
get clients to pay 50% upfront and the remainder completion for the project.
We generally do that for large projects and for new clients, but as I said earlier in the thread, they are an existing client and had paid other bills on time and without issue. I feel really annoyed as they didn't indicate they were unhappy with the work (and indeed had approved an earlier step in the creative process) but simply said they weren't happy with it once the bill landed on them. I firmly believe it was a simple case of them deciding they didn't want that work doing after further consideration.
When they dangled the carrot of 'there's a potentially bigger project in the pipeline if you drop this bill' I even offered to discount the future project to the same value which they declined – they are simply trying it on.
Asshats.
Only the court will decide whether that was a legitimate course of action. I'd take some convincing that you would incur further costs for hosting that is already in place and paid for. In the absence of any clear terms and conditions (and that is a clear lesson for the OP - both his hosting and his design services should have clear T&Cs. You may explicitly want to add a clause to your hosting agreement that services can be suspended if any debt from the company remains unpaid X days after it was due) the court is likely to consider what the implied T&Cs of the contract were. This might include looking at industry norms, vague email wording, the spoken evidence of both sides on what they understood etc. Without an express clause to that effect a court might struggle to accept that the contract for the hosting, which was agreed prior to the new development work even being requested contained an implied clause that any future development work that went unpaid would result in termination of the hosting service.If payment is not forthcoming then you can legitimately argue in court that the revocation of all services including those already paid for was to protect yourself/business from incurring further costs/debt.
If you pull the plug on hosting, and they were to counter claim (and of course they may not) court decided you had acted vindictively when there is a reasonable dispute over the unrelated invoice then you might find yourself facing consequential losses (and to help avoid that you want an explicit clause in your T&Cs).
The £750 itself is not an absolutely defined figure as (1) no work was delivered; (2) no terms were agreed for how the client would be billed if the contract terminated before its completion. It may be the OP is blameless in the breakdown of this relationship, and that his assessment of the number of hours spent/value is utterly reasonable.
no work was delivered
Work *WAS* delivered - we had a project meeting (two of our team), wireframe sketching (which was approved) and a first stage of high def. designs submitted.
The contract they signed for the original piece of work (ie, the original site design and build) says:
3.2.2 [b]suspend any or all of the Services[/b] until payment of the invoice, any interest, our administrative and legal costs of collecting payment, and any further sums payable are received by us. All Data provided by the customer or created by the Company will be destroyed after 14 days unless alternative arrangements are made with us.
We didn't get them to sign such a contract for this much smaller piece of work though.
However, we *have* recently changed the way we work so clients now sign a 'services' contract for any work we do for them so such a clause is client specific rather than project specific.
'there's a potentially bigger project in the pipeline if you drop this bill'
LOL 😀
As you've rightly noted, this is one of the oldest lines in the book. My brother had this a lot when he was running a business, usually from new clients promising more work if he discounted the first job. But if you give them a discount they expect an even bigger discount next time because they're supposedly "good customers" now !!