[Closed] Clever logo... (well I thought so anyway)

Apparently flogging a dead horse will bring it back to life. 🙄
Brand is just a name and what you associate with the name.
Marketing is bringing the product to the attention of those who might want to buy it and developing an image for the brand (see above).
Selling is full of lying cheating c***s!
ps. colours work on the subconscious. 🙄

this is where everyone should switch on the xbox and get multi-playering Modern warfare 2, whilst shouting design philosophy rhetoric into their headset microphones.

"it is harder to design a first rate chair than to paint a second rate painting-and much more useful DIIEE YOU SLAAAGGGS!!!.."

Double post. 😳
This thread is seriously screwing the STW servers.

It was claimed that colours (fonts, shapes etc) elicited responses in people.

You said they did not elicit a response in you.

or were you being difficult about the word "meaning" and choosing a narrow definition that meant you could divert the argument away from a point you'd have to concede?

bolleux.. says who..?

!!!

says bloody loads of people, and has been proved countless times in scientific studies.

Do you not "get" art either? When you paint your house, do you buy whichever paint is the cheapest, regardless of colour?

No ned - it was claimed far more than that and that additional meaning was universal and inherent. Page 4 and 5 IIRC

Whereas I said it was a construct known only to some. The idea that the same word in a different font or colour has different meaning that is universal and inherent is BS You can see this by peoples reactions. a significant number of us do not react to this so it is not universal and inherent.

and how on earth did this get started again?

has no one written the script that limits the number of posts one can make on a thread?.

I do get art ned.. quite instinctively these days I like to think.. it's my profession so I feel I ought to..

I just don't get design.. (well.. more specifically the type being discussed here) It's like the evil capitalist twin of art and should be outlawed or at the very least ridiculed until it feels silly enough about itself to stop being so naughty and do something more useful instead...

and I'm not daft.. I buy whatever paint my other half tells me to..

If I chose the paint myself I can quite confidently assure you that it wouldn't fit in with any norms imposed by the science of design studies..

says bloody loads of people, and has been proved countless times in scientific studies.

Tj you are like my new neighbour in the flat upstairs. Once engaged in conversation he just goes on and on, and won't stop until you go "BYE, gotta do stuff...(close door)"

The idea that the same word in a different font or colour has different meaning that is universal and inherent is BS

This is all quite amusing in a shaking head (and sometimes fists) kind of way and for the most part I've been pleased with myself for not getting too drawn in. There have been many lows but some awesome highs. Jackthedog's summary of events was probably the single funniest thing I've ever read on STW. Bravo to him. That he contributed the most sensible posts on here too wins him a medal. Come back Jack, you are my new forum hero 😀

The idea that the same word in a different font or colour has different meaning that is universal and inherent is BS

Off to google scholar

Yunki, so art is your job, you "instinctively" react to form and colour, and you don't beleive that there are common themes of reaction in people to form and colour?

If there aren't common themes of people's reactions to form and colour, what the hell have artists been up to since forever? They might as well have been shouting at the moon.

Thanks stilltortoise. I had almost lost the will to live 34 pages ago but couldn't resist a look at the last page - then had to go back and look for Jackthedogs post.

Well worth it <doffs cap and applauds jtd>

2 of them worth finding Woody.

ned.. I'm mostly taking the micky and hardly half interested..

It's always amusing to see the blank looks and hostility in adult learning classes when the group is presented with the concept of visual language..
which kind of lends weight in my mind to the idea that the code is indeed a construct rather than a universal truth.. I would certainly be sad if I found myself having to apply learnt scientific process to convey meaning in my work..

Incidentally Lucien Freud has apparently just died of boredom after looking at this thread.. 😯

(...rewind) deffo Jack The Dog FTW. good work 😆

If there aren't common themes of people's reactions to form and colour, what the hell have artists been up to since forever?

Mebbe, but **** is a rude word. A complete construct, but as universal a truth as you're likely to get (it's the c word, btw).

Also half interested, just blowing on the embers to see if I can get it going again. Off to brush my teeth now.

Ok. I'm taking a risk in having this thrown back at me by more knowledgable types, but I think this adds something to the debate... 🙂

A very brief search with 'graphic psychology' on google scholar led me through to this;
[url= http://psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews//32/font.asp ]A Comparison of Popular Online Fonts: Which is Best and When?[/url] It's not from a proper journal or owt, nor is it peer reviewed, but it's a start...

highlights;
[img] [/img]
Figure 3. Perceived as having personality (1 = "Not at all" and 6 = "Completely").

[img] [/img]
Figure 6. Perceived as being business-like (1 = "Not at all" and 6 = "Completely").

And lifted straight from the the conclusions:

Applying this information can help establish the proper mood of a particular site. For example, fonts that are perceived as being business-like and elegant may be more effective for a site such as an online bank. Conversely, fonts perceived as being youthful and fun, along with having personality, may be more effective for sites directed at children, such as an online toy store.

I'd be interested in your interpretations of this article.

That Bradley's a *@#* and no mistake. loads of personality, but shi* at business. I told Alan Sugar but he wouldn't listen.

...in a sec.

Seriously how does that fit in with your view?

That people have common reactions to form and colour, and that artists use these to convey messages and feelings to their audience, and elicit emotional, intellectual and physiological responses

In the same way that advertisers and designers do. (not comparing merit btw)

If you're saying that advertisers and designers can't do that with form and colour, you're saying artists can't either.

[img] [/img]

If you're saying that advertisers and designers can't do that with form and colour, you're saying artists can't either.

Militant_biker

The only person to actually produce some evidence.

there are significant major flaws in the methodology which will lead to false positives and its s very small sample. interensting all the same

so colour does have meaning and so it can be an influence in certain marginal circumstances, done to death already.

To say that in your entire life, you (and TJ) have [u]never[/u] been nudged one way or another on a marginal decision over some inconsequential purchase due to some of these influences is incredible.

2 of them worth finding Woody.

*goes off to trawl through pages

ned - neither of us have said that. throughout this thread people keep taking qualified statements and turning them into absolutes

I prefer SRAM gears to Shimano and I am pretty sure i can picture both logos and neither is inspiring tbh and neither is the reason for my choice

this'll never make 2000 posts.. 🙁

quick - slaughter another sacred cow!

[img] [/img]

Well, you need to be clearer in your communication then, TJ!

This thread is the length it is because pretty much everybody has read your words and understood you were making absolute statements that couldn't be true.

You've not done a great job of allaying that!

Actually, you've done a fantastic job of doing the opposite!

All Dressed Up With Something to Say: Effects of Typeface Semantic Associations on Brand Perceptions and Consumer Memory

That's my insomnia sorted... 🙂

So, someone is doing their job then.

That's for the market researchers to determine and nothing to do with the existing brand (name) or brand image. If they decide that there are enough people that think like you, bingo!

Ned - you guys need to read what it written not what you want to see adn to be precise in your language. For creatives in the advertising industry your grasp of semantics is not great. You consistently (altho graham was the worst) said I had made categorical statements when I had made qualified ones. I pointed out one superb example that Graham did where he simply ignored the "some of" when quoting me

near the beginning of all this I pulled this selection. consistently thru the thread I used qualified statements and qualifying words

MF - and [b]I believe you vastly overstate [/b]it.

Those 5 - as I said 1 and 3 convey the same information clearly and concisely - my name. The rest are just annoying as they are not clear.

there is no other information there - just clear name or unclear name. this other information only exists if you know the "language" and [b]most of us don't know it and dont care[/b]. its like the handkerchief in pocket thing for signals about your sexuality.

TandemJeremy - Member

Stumpy - only if you understand the "language" which [b]most folk[/b] who do not work in that world do not.

TandemJeremy - Member

Really? Proof? lets see some.

[b]its grossly overstated[/b] IMO

TandemJeremy - Member

In the case of the logos and the font - the meaning of the font is not inherent in the font. its a construction of those in the industry and [b]is meaningless to many of us outside[/b] the industry. I have no idea what you are intending to convey by the different fonts. I see a fancy font and I think - "winker"

Will someone please put this out of my misery.... 🙁

all they have done is name a company which is a legal requirement - I dont know what you think they have "done".
I am fairly confident that Shimanos brand strategy/logo is not designed to help me know i dont want their products. Is that reverse psychology now 😯
EDIT:we may be part of the problem here so lets leave it
Shall we report every post till the mods pull the thread or ban us?

If we're getting into trawling back through 35 pages, I'm getting off.

but as you've quoted an absolute statement and then a self contradiction just there:

there is no other information there - just clear name or unclear name.

I see a fancy font and I think - "winker"

.

Ned =- out of context and you know it - or is your ability to understand that limited?

here is no other information there - just clear name or unclear name.

I see a fancy font and I think - "winker"

Any fancy font says to me winker - this is not inherent and universal meaning alleged. These are not contradictory as they refer to different things.

Really - its one of the amazing things on this thread how poor your grasp of semantics is.

Really - its one of the amazing things on this thread how poor your grasp of semantics is.

Really - its one of the amazing things on this thread how poor your grasp of telling the truth is

TandemJeremy - Member

Guys - my final post.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

apparently there is lots of meaning there that everyone but me gets - the font used has meaning, the colours used have meaning, the little triangle has meaning and all these are seen by everyone. all this stuff is a universal inherent attributes and everyone gets the meaning

Or conversely - it only means anything to the people who know the code

The Garmin [b]*logo*[/b] (as I called it in the thread title) is a [b]*logo*.[/b] It is only [b]*part* [/b]of the brand. It is nothing but a [b]* component*[/b] part of the brand (just like a wheel is not a bike, it is a component on a bike). The fonts, colours etc all help form the overall visual appeal of the [b]*logo*[/b] and they will have been chosen to help develop the [b]*brand* [/b]positioning (I would suggest modern, words like contemporary, clean, uncluttered and simple would have been used somewhere down the lines in developing the brand). But you don't [b]*need*[/b] to understand all that in order to see the (albeit very subtle) arrow pointing north over the letterform 'N' (which stands for North).

I ask you TJ - does this piece of visual communication mean nothing to you? Have you ever looked at a map or used a compass?

[img] [/img]

To say that in your entire life, you (and TJ) have never been nudged one way or another on a marginal decision over some inconsequential purchase due to some of these influences is incredible.

you forget that they are both so much smarter than that, they are not fooled by the subtle use of nicely kerned helvetica neu or the sledgehammer of comic sans (in bold).

TJ

You had been doing so well of late but it appears you have allowed yourself to be sucked into your old ways.

When you start posting things like (I'll pick the most recent)

Ned =- out of context and you know it - or is your ability to understand that limited?

Really - its one of the amazing things on this thread how poor your grasp of semantics is

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

(nice use of a monospace neo-grotesque slab serif font there)

I ask you TJ - does this piece of visual communication mean nothing to you? Have you ever looked at a map or used a compass?

Its an N with a blue triangle. Nothing more. Several other people on this thread don't get it. It suggests nothing at all to me

I do understand the difference between logo and brand.

woody is perfectly correct tho. It does get frustrating when people distort the meaning of what one has typed to make a point as MF did above to show I did not understand something.

Look at what I have been called as well woody

.

Who gives a toss?It's a logo FFS.

The Garmin *logo* (as I called it in the thread title) is a *logo*. It is only *part* of the brand. It is nothing but a * component* part of the brand (just like a wheel is not a bike, it is a component on a bike). The fonts, colours etc all help form the overall visual appeal of the *logo* and they will have been chosen to help develop the *brand* positioning (I would suggest modern, words like contemporary, clean, uncluttered and simple would have been used somewhere down the lines in developing the brand). But you don't *need* to understand all that in order to see the (albeit very subtle) arrow pointing north over the letterform 'N' (which stands for North).

Anyone else reminded of the explanations of "One song to the Tune of another"

> does this piece of visual communication mean nothing to you? Have you ever looked at a map or used a compass?

Its an N with a blue triangle. Nothing more.

Proof positive, if any were needed, that TJ is man that doesn't know which way is up 😀

It does get frustrating when people distort the meaning of what one has typed to make a point

Yes, yes, it does doesn't it. 🙄

[i]does this piece of visual communication mean nothing to you? Have you ever looked at a map or used a compass?[/i]

[b]Its an N with a blue triangle. Nothing more[/b]

I'm reluctant to join in with picking on TJ here, but I do not believe this:
You're not a stupid man TJ; it's well within the grasp of all of us here that we recognise the allusion/reference. Either you do, and are denying it or else there's actually, genuinely something wrong with the way you process stuff

Its an N with a blue triangle. Nothing more. Several other people on this thread don't get it. It suggests nothing at all to me

Do you recognise this?
[img] [/img]

sorry - a blue triangle means north? really? Why?

remember several other people on this thread did not get it either. This is a classic example of what I said right at the beginning. To people in this world and who are interested in this stuff the language / code /hidden meanings are obvious. However some folk like me don't give two buttons for it so we don't see it.

Now you have told methats what it is I can see the intent from the designer - I now have the key to decode that.

Its not a universally recognised form - this is the bit you fail to appreciate. If you understand the language / code you can see it - if you don't you can't. Can you understand Russian?

A blue triangle atop the letter N in a word does not signify north. If someone did not know what a garmin was would they have the context to understand that

Yesterdfay you were telling me blue meant cold. so maybe its a fridge? I have never seen a compass with a blue triangle - mine has an arrow.

sorry - a blue triangle means north? really? Why?

Why? I thought blue meant cold - thats what you told me yesterday. My cold tap has blue triangle on it.

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

Why? I thought blue meant cold - thats what you told me yesterday. My cold tap has blue triangle on it.

I see no blue triangles. \Point made.

None of those even have a triangle over the letter N. N above an arrow is a more recognisable symbol. An arrow pointing to N shows north. A traingle above and N does not.

Maybe its a hat to stop the N feeling cold?

its only cos you know what a garmin is that you would even think of a compass point.

I see no blue triangles. \Point made.

But colours have no meaning to you though.

Ok TJ, heres another one for you, in true STW style it refers to NAzis (let's be clear this is not something I agree with, it's a ridiculous example to show TJ something.

[img] [/img]

Do these look the same to you? They are just a logo and words in a font. I think there is a different meaning to them.

please don't think I'm having a go, because I'm not.

What I'm trying to say is that it's pretty difficult in our society to not be exposed to branding/marketing/ whatever and not be influenced. However you and many others ACTIVELY (because it is so effective) look past it.

That sound fair?

Right, I've had enough, everyone walk away from the thread or the dog gets it;

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img] [img] [/img] [img] [/img] [img] [/img]

wwaswas - Member

Right, I've had enough, everyone walk away from the thread or the dog gets it;

I see no blue triangles. \Point made.

None of those even have a triangle over the letter N. N above an arrow is a more recognisable symbol. An arrow pointing to N shows north. A traingle above and N does not.

I'm bored.

A Google Images search for "north symbol" gives 15,200,000 results. Have a trawl through and I'm sure you'll find at least one.

If you are stating you LITERALLY cannot understand these symbols, then as m_f says, life must be incredibly difficult for you.

Perhaps we can set up some kind of STW charity event for people in your position, but obviously we'd need a good logo.

That one is a really classic example.

A blue triangle above an N is not a universally recognised symbol for north. Both of you found a bunch of images for north arrows none of which show a blue triangle above an N

Now you know a garmin is to do with navigation AND you look out for this sort of symbology. Thus you see it.

I don't give too hoots for the symbology and it is rather tenuous (if it was a red arrowshape it might be more obvious) so I did not see it until pointed out. Of course I can see the intent now.

If you did not know Garmin was to do with navigation you would not have the context to think "north Arrow" as it is not a universally recognised symbol.

Do you really think you would have seen that as a north arrow unless you knew it was to do with navigation?

This is the point - you need to context to get the meaning. You need to understand the code to get the meaning. I am not the only personon this thread to not see it.

Now enough - that dog looks like a nice doggy

Can we do this one now?

[img] [/img]

i am not i am merely saying that no matter how good it is it , alone, wont make me buy their product/s.

That is bleedin obvious.

Point missed, but not as badly as TJ.

Ned =- out of context and you know it - or is your ability to understand that limited?

here is no other information there - just clear name or unclear name.

in the context of people claiming the font gave meaning such as businesslike or similar that was universal and inherent.

Not out of context at all. A universal statement by you that leads people to believe you think there is no information conveyed in a choice of font. That it is in no way inappropriate for a childrens entertainer to display their name white, on a black background, in the same font Motorhead use; that if you were setting up a financial services company, the only people to be influenced by your choice of a font looking like children's handwriting would be designers, because "only they know the code".

And you've made these sorts of statements, conveyed these sorts of sentiments all the way through this thread.

If you're claiming you've been constantly misunderstood, that's nobody's fault but yours.

Now you know a garmin is to do with navigation AND you look out for this sort of symbology. Thus you see it.

Agreed. In the context of the original logo I didn't "get" it until it was pointed out.

Of course I can see the intent now.

So why pretend you can't?

Do you really think you would have seen that as a north arrow unless you knew it was to do with navigation?

Hmmm.. I'm not sure. I think the best I can say is [i]possibly[/i].

If I happened upon an 'N' chalked on the ground with a triangle above it and wondered what it was then yes, I think that [i]"Maybe it indicates North?"[/i] might be an interpretation that crossed my mind.

Now enough - that dog looks like a nice doggy

What's a "dog"? That's just a learned reference point. A construct. You are not born knowing that those three letter glyphs correspond to a hairy four-legged animal. It is not universal, it is a code known only to some and therefore I completely reject the idea. I have no idea what a dog is. All I see is three letters. 😀

In fact I don't see letters. They are are not universal. You are not born knowing what letters are and many people don't use Latin script.

So actually all I see is a circle with a line stuck to it, another circle, then a circle with a tail.

Actually no, scrap that, circle is not a universal construct. It is a code invented by farty geometry types.

All I see now is some meaningless squiggles.

All of your posts TJ. They are just meaningless squiggles with absolutely no meaning to me now.

I hope you're happy.

-m- - nice one - I had to google suunto - it appears to be a watch manufacturer. I have no idea what the red triangle is supposed to signify. does anyone?

and don't hide behind "universal", because it's meaningless in this context. Language isn't universal either, but a French childrens entertainer wouldn't use black and the motorhead font either.

So there's information conveyed which can be more widely understood than language.

But not by you.

It suggests nothing at all to me

[img] [/img]

Perhaps we can set up some kind of STW charity event for people in your position, but obviously we'd need a good logo.

Point missed, but not as badly as TJ.

I'm sorry.. but despite all the convoluted twists and turns that the pedantic wags have encouraged TJ to make.. It would appear that after all these pages he is still actually winning the debate..

I have no idea what the red triangle is supposed to signify. does anyone?

You could try [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suunto ]Wikipedia[/url]...