I've posted a few (low value) things in the classifieds recently and a couple of people have expressed interest, but then been reluctant, or just ghosted me, when I've suggested payment by bank transfer or PayPal F&F. I get that neither of these methods have any form of buyer protection, but have heard the stories of people being scammed out of stuff using PayPal so I'm reluctant to do that, even if the buyer pays the fees (though if it's a forum regular, I'm more willing). I get that this makes me look suspicious too*, and that trust is a two way street. What's the solution here?
*Maybe this post is an elaborate ruse to allay suspicion. But if it was, I wouldn't be adding this footnote. Or would I?
Anyone requesting F&F payment would be an immediate red flag for me, sorry. You're neither friend nor family (for all I know, even a forum regular might have had their account hacked). If you're selling stuff, you pay the transaction fees.
If you're selling stuff, you pay the transaction fees
For me, the person receiving the protection pays the fee. If I agree to sell you something for 50 quid, I expect 50 quid; you can pay the fee
For me, the person receiving the protection pays the fee. If I agree to sell you something for 50 quid, I expect 50 quid; you can pay the fee
This for me as well. I pay the fees when buying as they give me the protection.
As above. I've either calculated the fee and incorporated it into the asking price when selling, or added it to what I've paid when buying so the seller gets their asking price.
I've also met people in person and used cash.
Well this is news to me. Things have changed then, because I've bought and sold stuff sporadically on the this and other forums for years and it's only recently that this seems to have been an issue. It used to be the case that it wasn't even mentioned - if payment by PayPal was requested, the assumption was it was F&F, or Gift, as it was.
You're neither friend nor family
No. Nor is PayPal my pal. They're names.
So what happens if a buyer decides they don't like something I've sold them? My understanding was there wasn't much to stop them just clicking refund and PayPal taking the money back from me and them keeping the item.
So what happens if a buyer decides they don't like something I've sold them? My understanding was there wasn't much to stop them just clicking refund and PayPal taking the money back from me and them keeping the item.
I've done a fair few PP gift to regulars on here, not sure if bought from you over the years and this is not aimed at you but what happens if the seller doesn't post, it never arrives or not as described. The buyer has nothing.
I recognise you so wouldn't have any problems with paying as you want.
If it's someone I don't know/newbie then if they're not happy to accept PayPal if I pay the fees then I might think twice about buying.
Reminds me, I did buy a couple of frames years ago on here and paid by bank transfer, was a nervous wait but all was good 😂
Each time I checked on their history on here so was happy to 'chance' it.
On the forum, as a buyer, I'd be happy to use PP F&F buying something relatively low value and from someone who checks out as a forum regular. But otherwise, PP, and I'll pay the fees.
As a seller, I'd add fees to the price/expect the buyer to pay them.
Probably a bit more cautious these days than I used to be.
Not sold anything on here particularly but elsewhere I have never asked the buyer to use F&F or expected them to pay the fee.
You are selling the item, if I know the fees will be £5, I set the price £5 higher to cover it. I don’t set it £5 lower and then tell the buyer they have to pay it.
it just adds in complexity, you want the buyer to be confident so why make it difficult. I’ve also never had a return, and maybe I’m naive but the only scenario I can see where PayPal refunds without you getting the item back is where you’ve got to dispute stage and PayPal makes refund decision on a low value item. Otherwise they have to post the item back first.
Let’s face it, the scammers want fast easy cash. They don’t want an old bike frame and then bugger about getting a refund and a free old bike frame!
On the forum, as a buyer, I'd be happy to use PP F&F buying something relatively low value and from someone who checks out as a forum regular.
This, and have done so loads of times without any issue. Same with selling.
Seems like PayPal with fees is the least worst option then. I probably wouldn't sell to someone who wasn't a regular though, just to be on the safe side.
Seems a shame we've lost that trust on here (and again, I know it works both ways - as a seller you have to trust the buyer not to game the Buyer Protection) - I've bought dozens of things over the years from people on here, and I don't think I've once paid PayPal fees. When it's not stated, I've always just paid F&F.
With the fees, maybe the best thing is to build it into the price and offer a discount for F&F.
Price + PP fees + p&p.
Put this in the ad. If you're happy to negotiate on base price then say so, but stipulate fees & p&p are not up for discussion.
You've also got the option to send an invoice to request money.
Price + PP fees + p&p
+1. As a buyer I offer p&p and cover for PayPal goods and services fees. It’s not just about whether you know or trust someone - sometimes parcels get lost in transit and never turn up.
I’ve had no problems with sales on here. I usually ask for friends and family PayPal, as quite often I have given parts away and just charge postage.
I also don’t ask for payment until the item has arrived and the purchaser is happy, yes, I’m trusting but I’ve not been let down by STW yet!
So what happens if a buyer decides they don't like something I've sold them?
Googling "paypal seller protection" will take you straight to the answer to that question.
Well this is news to me. Things have changed then, because I've bought and sold stuff sporadically on the this and other forums for years and it's only recently that this seems to have been an issue. It used to be the case that it wasn't even mentioned - if payment by PayPal was requested, the assumption was it was F&F, or Gift, as it was.
This simply isn't true. There have been many, many, MANY "I've got a problem with someone on the Classifieds" threads over the years. The first question out of the gate would be "did you pay via Paypal Gift" and the replies to a response of "yes" would be "well you're a bloody idiot then, how many more times does this need to be said?" It's somewhere in the Classifieds rules/FAQ/whatever now even I think, strongly advising against using PP F&F.
Anecdotally it appears to be cropping up less frequently these days, presumably because people have finally worked it out.
+n on the side of I'd almost certainly drop out of any significant sale where the seller was insisting on PP F+F. Fair enough if I'm sending you beer money to cover postage and a pint for something that you're clearing out. But if it's a sale of above, say, £20 and you're explicitly asking me to give up any recourse in the event you don't send it / it doesn't arrive / your idea of "very good condition" means that it looks like it's spent a year bolted to the Titanic, I'd assume that you're intending to defraud me.
I have had to resort to a Paypal dispute to get my money back when a scammer in the classifieds never did send out what I'd paid for.
Bank transfer for someone who "doesn't use Paypal" maybe if there are others who will vouch for them.
+n on the side of I'd almost certainly drop out of any significant sale where the seller was insisting on PP F+F.
Just for STW contrariness, it wouldn't phase me in the slightest. I've been on here for probably twenty-plus years (Christ...) and have bought loads of stuff on the classifieds over that time, have always paid PayPal F&F and have never had an issue.
If you do want the protection, you can always do 'full' PayPal and pay the fees yourself.
Bank transfer for someone who "doesn't use Paypal" maybe if there are others who will vouch for them.
Again though, I'd be asking why. Setting up a Paypal account isn't exactly difficult.
There will always be other buyers/sellers, FOMO is one reason we get scammed.
If you do want the protection, you can always do 'full' PayPal and pay the fees yourself.
That's fair enough and I do generally cover the fees (IME, it's about 50:50 between sellers who are pleasantly surprised by my doing this and sellers who insist on it on here), but it sounds like the OP would reject this, which is what would ring alarm bells to me.
have bought loads of stuff on the classifieds over that time, have always paid PayPal F&F and have never had an issue.
And there's the rub. There are plenty of usernames here (Inc yours as I've bought from you in the past) where I don't think anyone should be 'wasting' more on a paid for service - f&f or bank transfer is all good. But for some random person/username....who 'might' be a wrongun - full fat PayPal probably makes sense.
Wronguns come in many forms. There's the outright scammers who are out to scam from the off. But there are also the forgetful/ignorants who once they have the cash never quite make putting the thing in the post on the to do list for the day. There are also the deluded....selling as 'nearly new' their scraps bin scrapings artfully photographed - sometimes genuinely thinking they are doing someone a solid for selling them a thing for £xxx.
Properly insured postage is another story....if it's under insured and it turns up abused or never turns up at all - who takes the hit? Does that change if the selling didn't declare if they bothered or not or gives the buyer a cheaper option and they go for it.
if it's under insured and it turns up abused or never turns up at all - who takes the hit?
The seller. "Does that change if..." no it doesn't.
This entire thread is "how do I save a few pence and still stay safe" and the answer is "you don't, pick one." The seller is responsible for safe delivery (as well as Paypal fees, as I've already said, this is the cost of trading). Insured delivery is wholly a seller concern - if delivery fails then it dictates whether they're entitled for reimbursement or not, the buyer gets their money back regardless.
You can negotiate this of course. If you want to sell something for £50 and actually get £50 in total, maybe sell it for £60 to cover fees and postage?
Googling "paypal seller protection" will take you straight to the answer to that question.
Many thanks for your advice. I was more looking for real-world experiences of how PayPal deal with it, because what I remember reading is it's largely like eBay where they assume the buyer is unhappy and therefore the seller must be in the wrong.
There have been many, many, MANY "I've got a problem with someone on the Classifieds" threads over the years. The first question out of the gate would be "did you pay via Paypal Gift" and the replies to a response of "yes" would be "well you're a bloody idiot then, how many more times does this need to be said?"
Indeed, there's one I started years ago after I bought a box of old parts from someone and he didn't send it for several weeks. I posted, some people said I shouldn't have paid PayPal Gift, others agreed, I said I still would since overall it'd saved me more than that had cost me over the years, some people agreed with me, the guy saw it, and eventually sent me the stuff. I've bought loads of things off here paying PayPal Gift since. I guess some things never change.
This entire thread is "how do I save a few pence and still stay safe"
OP:
I'm reluctant to do that, even if the buyer pays the fees
I see not reading the OP hasn't gone out of fashion either.
Bank transfer for someone who "doesn't use Paypal" maybe if there are others who will vouch for them.
Again though, I'd be asking why.
For the reason given in my OP, but also I've tried to avoid PayPal in the past for ethical reasons, namely, they had a reputation for keeping hold of people's money for unfeasibly long periods when there was a dispute, and being uncontactable, whilst not being subject to the same regulatory oversight as "real" financial institutions, and they avoided paying tax in the UK. Possibly this has changed and I'm not up to date. Maybe also the stench of Musk hangs around like... well, a musk.
As it happens, I sold an item in the classifieds today. I offered the buyer the choice of bank transfer, PayPal F&F or full Paypal if they paid the fees (since I hadn't accounted for them in the price*) and they chose PayPal F&F.
*I can't even work out what the fee is - depends on the payment method and whether a QR code is involved ??? https://www.paypal.com/uk/business/paypal-business-fees#fixed-fees-commercialtrans
Many thanks for your advice. I was more looking for real-world experiences of how PayPal deal with it, because what I remember reading is it's largely like eBay where they assume the buyer is unhappy and therefore the seller must be in the wrong.
Aren't they the same company now anyway?
I guess some things never change.
Or you've been lucky.
I see not reading the OP hasn't gone out of fashion either.
I said...
This entire thread is "how do I save a few pence and still stay safe"
... perhaps I should have said "most of this entire thread."
Anyway.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't generally have any issues with using F&F with you or indeed with many regulars, so long as I could ascertain that their account hadn't been compromised. What I was trying to get at was in more general terms and not directed at anyone: don't try to buck the system and then cry when it goes wrong.
Phew, and once upon a time we bought and sold stuff here using cheques which were posted to the seller and paid into the bank before things were sent!